Arguments for and against fish cognition

[JDMS]

I have a metric I use to establish personhood and premise my rules on killing based on that metric. My purpose with this thread is to try and gather ideas and evidence regarding that. Right now I cannot eat fish guilt free because I don't know if they meet said metric. I'd like to eat them, therefore the question is important to me.

Then its my personal recommendation based on my education and experience that you do not eat fish. We just don't know enough to say with reasonable certainty that any fish is not conscious. If its a moral dilemma, I really would avoid it. Better safe than sorry.

 

[Kharisym]

Then its my personal recommendation based on my education and experience that you do not eat fish. We just don't know enough to say with reasonable certainty that any fish is not conscious. If its a moral dilemma, I really would avoid it. Better safe than sorry.

At this time I do refrain from eating fish. That said, I'm not one to merely leave the.. fish uncooked to use a groanful metaphor. I find the question of animal cognition to be intensely interesting as well as morally and personally important to me.

You said you have ample evidence of fish possessing intelligence per defined in the OP. I understand not wanting to produce a long list, but would you be interested in choosing one which you consider the best argument? If not, it'll make me sad, but I accept that I cannot force you to tell me something you'd rather not. I'd also be willing to agree to *not* debating the evidence you give with you, but rather consider it privately to myself.

 

[Secret Chief]

they served her a bowl of french beans topped with foie gras.

Do you reckon they:
A. Made a genuine mistake, out of ignorance.
B. Thought it was funny (to them).
C. Were just taking contemptuous ****

 

[ChristineM]

Do you reckon they:
A. Made a genuine mistake, out of ignorance.
B. Thought it was funny (to them).
C. Were just taking contemptuous ****

Probably a mistake made of ignorance.

 

[Secret Chief]

Probably a mistake made of ignorance.

Ok. You mean I shouldn't have burnt the restaurant down then?

 

[Secret Chief]

Probably a mistake made of ignorance.

Just out of interest...What's your daughter's take on calamari?

 

[ChristineM]

Just out of interest...What's your daughter's take on calamari?

She'll eat it, if forced ;-)

 

[Secret Chief]

She'll eat it, if forced ;-)

Well she's very naughty.

- Cephalopod intelligence - Wikipedia

 

[ChristineM]

Well she's very naughty.

Cephalopod intelligence - Wikipedia

Not really, she is more concerned about environment and health than intelligence.

 

[JustGeorge]

As an ethical vegetarian, I find us to be in the minority.

We used to go to a vegetarian potluck in the precovid days... we were the only ethical ones there(the others were all health/environment). We'd use naughty ingredients in our dishes(like salt or sugar), and they always went over well.

Sometimes too well. We caught a woman in the kitchen area licking our empty chili pot.

 

[Polymath257]

I have seen philosophers argue that a thermostat is conscious to some degree. I would not agree to that, but it shows the difficulty of even defining what it means to be conscious, let alone figuring out how to detect it in others.

Are all fish conscious? I'm guessing it would depend on your definition of 'conscious' (and also your definition of 'fish').

Can you give an example of an organism that you could definitively state is not conscious? Are you absolutely sure plants are not conscious? Maybe the apple tree screams every time an apple is picked. And root vegetables actually kill the plant when we pick and eat them. Plants react to harm by sending out chemicals that other plants react to. is that communication? Does that imply consciousness?

Is complexity of behavior the only, or even most useful, criterion for determining consciousness?

All of these are difficult to impossible questions.

My recommendation: find some behaviors that you feel provide a defining line that you don't want to cross over. Then proceed.

 

[Kharisym]

Not really, she is more concerned about environment and health than intelligence.

I always find this position fascinating. If we found a method of filtering out prion disease, and also discovered that human brain meat can be processed to create a stew that'll double another human's life span, would she eat that stew?

 

[Kharisym]

My recommendation: find some behaviors that you feel provide a defining line that you don't want to cross over. Then proceed.

I think that is what I'm trying to do.

 

[ChristineM]

I always find this position fascinating. If we found a method of filtering out prion disease, and also discovered that human brain meat can be processed to create a stew that'll double another human's life span, would she eat that stew?

No, its meat. (Or more precisely offal)

Not sure if she is into cannibalism either.

 

[Kharisym]

No, its meat. (Or more precisely offal)

Not sure if she is into cannibalism either.

But if her reasons are only health and environment, then in the thought experiment I posited above, cannibalism of this kind would be both healthy and environmentally friendly. Is there a third, unstated criteria?

 

[JDMS]

At this time I do refrain from eating fish. That said, I'm not one to merely leave the.. fish uncooked to use a groanful metaphor. I find the question of animal cognition to be intensely interesting as well as morally and personally important to me.

You said you have ample evidence of fish possessing intelligence per defined in the OP. I understand not wanting to produce a long list, but would you be interested in choosing one which you consider the best argument? If not, it'll make me sad, but I accept that I cannot force you to tell me something you'd rather not. I'd also be willing to agree to *not* debating the evidence you give with you, but rather consider it privately to myself.

It's hard to say which you will find to be the best example, but I'll share a couple of the ones that mean a lot to me.

I'll preface this by saying that almost any behavior can be written off as something besides intelligence, but at the same time, we have no reason to believe it's not intelligence.

1) Inter-species cooperation. Groupers, eels, and octopi have all been seen hunting in pairs with one another, usually with the same individual each time. This cooperation is usually brought on by the animals making gestures rather than simply appearing and hunting the same fish. Not all groupers or moray eels engage in this behavior.

Barracuda have also been known to dwell near docks in Hawaii until fisherman show up, where they then direct the fisherman towards the nearest school of fish so they can get some food.

2) We've seen several taxa of fish show Machiavellian intelligence, which is essentially the ability to behave diplomatically or to use information one knows about another individual to their own benefit.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292242763_Machiavellian_Intelligence_in_Fishes

3) Research on optical illusions that had only previously worked on primates and humans work on several taxa of fish. These optical illusions play on advanced cognitive understanding of a prior experience.

4) Many taxa of fish use multiple brain areas at a time, something associated with higher levels of cognition. Individual fish have also been observed to have left and right brain bias.

5) Zebrafish and goldfish trained using color and reward puzzles have shown metacognitive abilities. AKA the fish was aware when it didn't know the answer. They become hesitant and choose not to answer. They can think about thinking. I got to see this in person since we were the ones doing this assay.

6) Zebrafish have complex brain processes and social habits that become obstructed in the exact same way by the same neurodivergencies. In other words, autistic fish behave in the same way as autistic humans. Fish with Alzheimer's show the same symptoms as humans with Alzheimer's (mostly). Zebrafish have proven to be an even better model for autism then mice have.

These are just some of the examples. We also see tool use, jealously, extremely good memory application and puzzle solving abilities in fish, to name a few.

Take them as you will.

 

[ChristineM]

But if her reasons are only health and environment, then in the thought experiment I posited above, cannibalism of this kind would be both healthy and environmentally friendly. Is there a third, unstated criteria?

She's just 16, who knows what goes on in a 16 year olds brain..

Eating people or any mammalian meat is not on her wish list though,

 

[Twilight Hue]

I wonder at what point will the next sapient species on this plant will be? Assuming mankind doesn't destroy itself.

 

[Kharisym]

She's just 16, who knows what goes on in a 16 year olds brain..

Eating people or any mammalian meat is not on her wish list though,

Fair point! The third criterion is probably 'omg gross'.

 

[Kharisym]

It's hard to say which you will find to be the best example, but I'll share a couple of the ones that mean a lot to me.

I'll preface this by saying that almost any behavior can be written off as something besides intelligence, but at the same time, we have no reason to believe it's not intelligence.

1) Inter-species cooperation. Groupers, eels, and octopi have all been seen hunting in pairs with one another, usually with the same individual each time. This cooperation is usually brought on by the animals making gestures rather than simply appearing and hunting the same fish. Not all groupers or moray eels engage in this behavior.

Barracuda have also been known to dwell near docks in Hawaii until fisherman show up, where they then direct the fisherman towards the nearest school of fish so they can get some food.

2) We've seen several taxa of fish show Machiavellian intelligence, which is essentially the ability to behave diplomatically or to use information one knows about another individual to their own benefit.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/292242763_Machiavellian_Intelligence_in_Fishes

3) Research on optical illusions that had only previously worked on primates and humans work on several taxa of fish. These optical illusions play on advanced cognitive understanding of a prior experience.

4) Many taxa of fish use multiple brain areas at a time, something associated with higher levels of cognition. Individual fish have also been observed to have left and right brain bias.

5) Zebrafish and goldfish trained using color and reward puzzles have shown metacognitive abilities. AKA the fish was aware when it didn't know the answer. They become hesitant and choose not to answer. They can think about thinking. I got to see this in person since we were the ones doing this assay.

6) Zebrafish have complex brain processes and social habits that become obstructed in the exact same way by the same neurodivergencies. In other words, autistic fish behave in the same way as autistic humans. Fish with Alzheimer's show the same symptoms as humans with Alzheimer's (mostly). Zebrafish have proven to be an even better model for autism then mice have.

These are just some of the examples. We also see tool use, jealously, extremely good memory application and puzzle solving abilities in fish, to name a few.

Take them as you will.

Thank you for the reply! This is honestly what I was after in this thread, new venues of exploration so I can have a better informed decision once I reach the point of decision making.