Throw Grandma in Jail and Throw Away the Key?

[Wildswanderer]

We need equal justice. Not equal injustice.

If you let people get away with this stuff it just keeps happening. Maybe next time it will be the Dems, or Antifa, or BLM, or that new Forward party. If you want to stop this from happening again put these guys in jail now. Stop thinking of reasons not to.

I'm all for jail time for actual acts of violence even if it's only breaking and entering... but not for simply walking through an open gate.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

people do not suffer eternal damnation for refusing a certain religious doctrine. People suffer self-inflicted torment for refusing eternal life, for rejecting their Creator the only Source of life, goodness, love, beauty, and joy.

If you fail to obey the deity, you will be punished with torture forever. The church appears to recognize that this form of hell theology is a turn-off and counterproductive, since it depicts a tyrannical, draconian deity. I've seen many efforts attempting to soften this, like your next comment.

Life in an eternity apart from God is empty, endless, lonely suffering.

Yes, I have seen this before. Hell isn't fire. It's the eternal suffering of not being with God. I don't think that this one is quite as motivating as the lake of fire. I'm living life now without any gods including that one, and it no form of suffering at all.

Another one I've seen is that God doesn't send people to hell - they send themselves. Oh, really? Then I'm not going. What's that you say? I'm going anyway? That's God sending people to hell.

According to the scriptures, God doesn’t “keep a soul alive for the sole purpose of gratuitously tormenting it forever for not sufficiently submitting to a particular religion's doctrine”, as you seem to mistakenly believe.

You wrote, "Eternal beings cannot just be ended or annihilated." I don't know why not, but even so, they are gratuitously punished to the benefit of nobody. You just can't make this god seem kind or good. You can assert it despite all of the contrary evidence, but then you have to pull out the apologetics tool box to try to make it all seem infinitely benevolent after all, which has no effect on the critical thinker. He's going to go from evidence to conclusion, and the evidence supports a conclusion different from the faith-based premise to the contrary. The believer starts there, and then deals with the evidence as you are. Nothing is what it appears to be, we are told. The skeptic just doesn't understand, he is told. This deity only seems petty, cruel, and narcissistic. This is a form of gaslighting. The skeptic shouldn't trust his own mind.

So we have free will but we get punished if we use it? How is that free will?

Christianity has an interesting relationship with free will. As the religion describes it and as you suggest, it's why people go to hell. The highest crime in Christianity is to exert free will when what one wills is not what has been commanded. What does blessed are the meek mean if not that the ones with the least will or sense of self are preferred?

What's interesting is how the religion than calls free will a gift from god, and argues that the deity doesn't want robots in heaven. We are also told that evil in the world is due to free will, which raises the interesting question of whether God will permit free will and thus evil in heaven, or whether he will have robots after all.

 

[F1fan]

So we have free will but we get punished if we use it? How is that free will?

Well it's not the use of free will (which doesn't exist anyway), it's not having the wisdom to make sound decisions willfully. Wise people make wise decisions, while foolish people make poor decisions. Both have "free will", it is using will to make decisions for the self. Many theists seem to believe that free will = being stupid. But we see the free will by Adam and Eve to be a stupid decision. And being wise does not = being a robot, as theists claim.

If God had made Adam and Eve like Buddhist monks with plenty of wisdom they would have not been tempted. But God made them like children, and incapable of making good, prudent decisions. They were duped, just as God created them. Did God not know what he was doing?

 

[F1fan]

I'm all for jail time for actual acts of violence even if it's only breaking and entering... but not for simply walking through an open gate.

Kinda like Adan and Eve should not have been punished for just eating fruit.

But there is more to both stories. Right?

 

[F1fan]

Christianity has an interesting relationship with free will. As the religion describes it and as you suggest, it's why people go to hell. The highest crime in Christianity is to exert free will when what one wills is not what has been commanded. What does blessed are the meek mean if not that the ones with the least will or sense of self are preferred?

What's interesting is how the religion than calls free will a gift from god, and argues that the deity doesn't want robots in heaven. We are also told that evil in the world is due to free will, which raises the interesting question of whether God will permit free will and thus evil in heaven, or whether he will have robots after all.

The interesting thing is that Christians don't depict their God as being truly benevolent. A just God would understand that rational thinkers do not believe because there is a lack of evidence for God, so a just God would honor this thinking and lack of belief and not punish a person. A just God would also not punish people who never were exposed to Christianity. How could people from some remote tribe be judged to hell if they never heard of Jesus or salvation? That many Christians offer a non-compromised attitude by their God suggests it is tyrannical and unjust. It makes the Christians look bad as it is they who represent their God in the world.

Christians are trapped by the ideology they adopt, so are stuck with managing these ideas in open discourse. Most are not prepared for this. They do struggle to offer a coherent explanation for the inconsistencies.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

The interesting thing is that Christians don't depict their God as being truly benevolent. A just God would understand that rational thinkers do not believe because there is a lack of evidence for God, so a just God would honor this thinking and lack of belief and not punish a person. A just God would also not punish people who never were exposed to Christianity. How could people from some remote tribe be judged to hell if they never heard of Jesus or salvation? That many Christians offer a non-compromised attitude by their God suggests it is tyrannical and unjust. It makes the Christians look bad as it is they who represent their God in the world.

Christians are trapped by the ideology they adopt, so are stuck with managing these ideas in open discourse. Most are not prepared for this. They do struggle to offer a coherent explanation for the inconsistencies.

Agreed. They present a cruel, vengeful, narcissistic deity, and then say that that is perfect love and mercy. Good luck defending that conclusion in the face of so much evidence to the contrary. One might as well try to convince others that Trump is benevolent.

The problem that Christian apologists face is the same one as anybody who has chosen a false belief faces. In the case of religious dogma, it will contain multiple contradictions that weren't noticed or challenged when the stories were created by multiple writers over centuries. So, you have one writer claiming that man is saved by faith alone, and another who says it's works. This is perfectly natural when making up stories, but not if one is claiming that the scriptures are of divine origin.

There are probably multiple contradictions in every fictional account of sufficient complexity, including modern fiction like Star Trek or The Sopranos. The Sopranos: 10 Continuity Errors You Didn't Notice | ScreenRant

Regarding Star Trek, from Plot Holes In The Star Trek Universe (gamerant.com) . If you're a fan, you know that Kirk's middle name is Tiberius, not a name beginning with R, and you understand how a mistake like this could be made. Somebody forgot to look at the Kirk biography card, which gives the "facts" of the character's life. If somebody believes that this is (future) history rather than fiction, he has a much harder problem. Why is this headstone wrong? How could whoever engraved it not know Kirk's middle name, or just guess and guess wrong?

This is the same problem the creationists face. They guessed, and they guessed incorrectly about something falsifiable, evolution. So now, they have to deal with a torrent of contradictions, such as why the Genesis account is so different from the science.

The sine qua non of incorrect ideas is they contradict the evidence, and they can generate no useful output - no ideas that can accurately anticipate outcomes. Consider astrology. How do we know that it is a wrong idea? Just that - the evidence contradicts the claim that horoscopes are valid as their predictions continually get it wrong, and nobody can use a horoscope for any purpose other than entertainment. Compare that to a correct idea, like the science of astronomy, where the evidence is largely in accord with the scientific narrative, and correct predictions about things like eclipses are possible.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'm all for jail time for actual acts of violence even if it's only breaking and entering... but not for simply walking through an open gate.

So you do not know what she actually did. There is a link to an article that explains what she did and why she was found guilty. I even quoted from it rather extensively in one thread. You should try to learn a little before making rather ignorant comments.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Regarding Star Trek, from Plot Holes In The Star Trek Universe (gamerant.com) . If you're a fan, you know that Kirk's middle name is Tiberius, not a name beginning with R, and you understand how a mistake like this could be made. Somebody forgot to look at the Kirk biography card, which gives the "facts" of the character's life. If somebody believes that this is (future) history rather than fiction, he has a much harder problem. Why is this headstone wrong? How could whoever engraved it not know Kirk's middle name, or just guess and guess wrong?

The logical explanation given in the article, and one that I have seen elsewhere, is that they had not yet decided what Kirk's middle name was at that time and they forgot this one small detail in later productions.

But as an an avid and fundamentalist Star Trek fan I cannot accept this explanation. Star Trek the original series is inerrant. There can't be any mistakes in it. And this has a clear explanation shown through apologetics. It was Gary Mitchell's error. He was the one that made that tombstone. He had god like powers but he was not yet a god. That was shown both in his defeat and by this error. The "R" foreshadowed his failure.

Hah! Checkmate astartrekiests!

 

[InChrist]

So we have free will but we get punished if we use it? How is that free will?



Great... praying in a particular way in a particular church might be useful.

It’s freedom to choose good or evil, right or wrong, and God’s love or the devil’s hate.
Justice requires that evil be dealt with. God would not be loving, nor just if He let evil run rampant wrecking havoc and damage for eternity.
Praying to be aligned with God’s will is not associated with a particular method or church. You made that up, I didn’t say that and that’s not what the scriptures indicate.

 

[InChrist]

Please, you appear to be refuting yourself by implying that the Garden of Eden myth is true.

LOL! Do you really think I’d believe the opinion of a finite, human atheist concerning the historical biblical accounts over the word of the infinite Creator of heaven and earth?

 

[Subduction Zone]

LOL! Do you really think I’d believe the opinion of a finite, human atheist concerning the historical biblical accounts over the word of the infinite Creator of heaven and earth?

But your beliefs are demonstrably wrong. You forget that many atheists here used to be Christians and became atheists because they understood their book of myths better than you do.

 

[InChrist]

If you fail to obey the deity, you will be punished with torture forever. The church appears to recognize that this form of hell theology is a turn-off and counterproductive, since it depicts a tyrannical, draconian deity. I've seen many efforts attempting to soften this, like your next comment.



Yes, I have seen this before. Hell isn't fire. It's the eternal suffering of not being with God. I don't think that this one is quite as motivating as the lake of fire. I'm living life now without any gods including that one, and it no form of suffering at all.

Another one I've seen is that God doesn't send people to hell - they send themselves. Oh, really? Then I'm not going. What's that you say? I'm going anyway? That's God sending people to hell.



You wrote, "Eternal beings cannot just be ended or annihilated." I don't know why not, but even so, they are gratuitously punished to the benefit of nobody. You just can't make this god seem kind or good. You can assert it despite all of the contrary evidence, but then you have to pull out the apologetics tool box to try to make it all seem infinitely benevolent after all, which has no effect on the critical thinker. He's going to go from evidence to conclusion, and the evidence supports a conclusion different from the faith-based premise to the contrary. The believer starts there, and then deals with the evidence as you are. Nothing is what it appears to be, we are told. The skeptic just doesn't understand, he is told. This deity only seems petty, cruel, and narcissistic. This is a form of gaslighting. The skeptic shouldn't trust his own mind.



Christianity has an interesting relationship with free will. As the religion describes it and as you suggest, it's why people go to hell. The highest crime in Christianity is to exert free will when what one wills is not what has been commanded. What does blessed are the meek mean if not that the ones with the least will or sense of self are preferred?

What's interesting is how the religion than calls free will a gift from god, and argues that the deity doesn't want robots in heaven. We are also told that evil in the world is due to free will, which raises the interesting question of whether God will permit free will and thus evil in heaven, or whether he will have robots after all.

God will not have robots in heaven because those who dwell in the new heaven and earth will have freely chosen to be there and willingly desire and love living in God’s Presence and enjoying His love, beauty, creativity, etc.
I don’t think you seem to understand that human beings were created to live with God for eternity. He alone is the Source of life. To be separated from God is spiritual death. For one to reject God’s light, life, and love will be eternal SELF- torment; a living hell. It is not torture from God, who desires that all should be spend eternity with Him.
The biblical scriptures describe hell or eternal separation/damnation in various ways; fire is definitely one way, as well as outer darkness and wailing and gnashing of teeth. My perspective is that the fire is a burning spiritual sense of painful self torment, rather than physical fire. You may be interested in this linked article. Again, I think each person makes the choice concerning their eternal destiny. No one ends up separated in hell from God because God wants them there, nor is God torturing anyone, since every person was created to spend eternity with their Creator. Yet, no one is forced.

“The idea that physical fire consuming one's body could have a morally purifying effect (affirmed by both Catholicism and Islam) is not only heresy but unreasonable. Evangelicals, too, accept the idea of torment in physical fire as a fitting eternal punishment for moral and spiritual rebellion against God. That concept has numerous problems.”

“Bodily immersion in fire (as Islam, Catholicism, and many evangelicals propose) would cause such unbearable pain that it would be impossible to have a moral or rational thought. There couldn't even be a sincere regret for sins committed-only an overwhelming rage against the "God" who would torture in this manner and the desperate promise of anything in order to get relief. Of course, promises made under such duress would be worthless!”

Justice, Forgiveness, and Transformation

 

[fantome profane]

God will not have robots in heaven …

Well, then I don’t want to go.

 

[John53]

It’s freedom to choose good or evil, right or wrong, and God’s love or the devil’s hate.
Justice requires that evil be dealt with. God would not be loving, nor just if He let evil run rampant wrecking havoc and damage for eternity.

So he's not loving and just at the moment because he's letting evil run rampant but will change his character some time in the future... got it.

Praying to be aligned with God’s will is not associated with a particular method or church. You made that up, I didn’t say that and that’s not what the scriptures indicate.

Ok so praying to Baiame or Zeus or Vishnu will be effective?

 

[InChrist]

But your beliefs are demonstrably wrong. You forget that many atheists here used to be Christians and became atheists because they understood their book of myths better than you do.

There may be many atheists who have turned from the “Christian religion”, but none who had their lives transformed by a living relationship with Jesus; leave Him. One who is born again and raised to new, eternal life in Christ belongs to Jesus forever and cannot be unborn.
I read plenty of accounts of atheists who have be saved by Christ, born anew, who now realize the Creator knows more then they do and therefore, believe His word.

 

[InChrist]

So he's not loving and just at the moment because he's letting evil run rampant but will change his character some time in the future... got it.


Ok so praying to Baiame or Zeus or Vishnu will be effective?

I know I’ve said it before, but I’ll repeat it. I once heard you must say things 7 times for some people to comprehend.
God’s focus is eternity. God is outside of time and his goal is always consistently eternal. You had better be glad God is not pouring out His judgement on all evil and sin immediately. If He did everyone outside of Christ would be finished. Instead, God is patiently allowing humans to see the consequences of their sins and rebellion against His wisdom, the damage this causes to themselves, others, and the planet, while offering time for repentance and change through Christ the Savior.

If there is One true God, one Creator of heaven and earth as revealed in the biblical scriptures ( Isaiah 44:8;45: 5,14,18, 21, 22; 46:9),
then praying to Baiame or Zeus or Vishnu may be as effective as praying to a tree, a statue, or a piece of toast.

 

[InChrist]

Well, then I don’t want to go.

Kind of funny.
Yet, probably not a great reason for rejecting heaven. I actually do think transhumanism is coming; humans merged with technology. In some way, at some point this will probably be connected to the 666 Antichrist global government system spoken of in the scriptures. Anyone who alters God’s human creation to the point of either genetically or technologically changing the their body in alignment with the Antichrist system will forfeit all hope of eternal life in the new heaven and earth.

 

[John53]

I know I’ve said it before, but I’ll repeat it. I once heard you must say things 7 times for some people to comprehend.
God’s focus is eternity. God is outside of time and his goal is always consistently eternal. You had better be glad God is not pouring out His judgement on all evil and sin immediately. If He did everyone outside of Christ would be finished. Instead, God is patiently allowing humans to see the consequences of their sins and rebellion against His wisdom, the damage this causes to themselves, others, and the planet, while offering time for repentance and change through Christ the Savior.

Great system, the free will of the evil doers trumps the free will of the victims. I'll stick to believing it's a load of nonsense thought up to explain the inaction of an imaginary God.

If there is One true God, one Creator of heaven and earth as revealed in the biblical scriptures ( Isaiah 44:8;45: 5,14,18, 21, 22; 46:9),
then praying to Baiame or Zeus or Vishnu may be as effective as praying to a tree, a statue, or a piece of toast.

If.....

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I don’t think you seem to understand that human beings were created to live with God for eternity.

I understand that you might believe that, but I'm an atheist.

To be separated from God is spiritual death.

I think I explained to you that that argument isn't compelling. I live outside of religion now, and it is a full and satisfying life.

nor is God torturing anyone

Not if there is not god. This is about doctrine, however, and I know Christian doctrine in this area. Even if your personal theology varies from orthodoxy, the needless suffering of people dying unsaved is a central tenet in Christianity - obey God's commandments, or be subject to eternal torture.

Have you seen the quotations from church fathers throughout the ages relishing in looking down at the souls in hell and enjoying their suffering along with God? These people believed and taught exactly what you are saying doesn't happen. This is what I meant by gratuitous suffering of benefit to nobody but sadists:

[1] "In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned ... So that they may be urged the more to praise God ... The saints in heaven know distinctly all that happens ... to the damned" - Thomas Aquinas

[2] "The door of mercy will be shut and all bowels of compassion denied, by God, who will laugh at their destruction; by angels and saints, who will rejoice when they see the vengeance' by their fellow-suffer the devil and the damned rejoicing over their misery." - Bishop Newcomb

[3] "This display of the divine character will be most entertaining to all who love God, will give them the highest and most ineffable pleasure. Should the fire of this eternal punishment cease, it would in a great measure obscure the light of heaven, and put an end to a great part of the happiness and glory of the blessed." - Samuel Hopkins

[4] "Non-Christians often ask the Christian, "But how can the God of love allow any of his creatures to suffer unending misery?" The question is, how can he not? The fact that God is love makes hell necessary." - Christian Theology in Plain Language, p. 219

[5] "The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardor of the love and gratitude of the saints of heaven ... The sight of hell torments will exalt the happiness of the saints forever ... Can the believing father in Heaven be happy with his unbelieving children in Hell ... I tell you, yea! Such will be his sense of justice that it will increase rather than diminish his bliss." - Jonathan Edwards

[6] "At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause." - Tertullian

[7] "Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!" - Jonathan Edwards

[8] "What will it be like for a mother in heaven who sees her son burning in hell? She will glorify the justice of God." - Catholic Truth Society​

There may be many atheists who have turned from the “Christian religion”, but none who had their lives transformed by a living relationship with Jesus

Of course. I wasn't one of them. I left Christianity, and that's when my life was transformed. None who have had their lives transformed by humanism would return to theism.

I read plenty of accounts of atheists who have be saved by Christ, born anew, who now realize the Creator knows more then they do and therefore, believe His word.

And you might have heard me say that once. I was an atheist who became a Christian, then I was a Christian who returned to atheism. Your beliefs are predicated on the idea that theism makes a life better. The opposite was the case with me. And I assume that means that you believe that I just wasn't doing it right. That's the usual reaction. Of course, the theist argues, God is there and anxious to welcome all who seek him with open, loving arms. If that didn't happen, the individual failed, because God is real and never fails. I see it as I never sacrificed my evidence-based thinking. I only agreed to suspend disbelief and stop analyzing the religion like a skeptic for a season to see if it began to make sense and if the religion kept its promises, like somebody trying on a pair of shoes that don't fit quite right now, but might after a walk in them. The answer was no in each case, so, I cast those shoes off and found better fitting shoes. That's reasonable.

 

[fantome profane]

Kind of funny.
Yet, probably not a great reason for rejecting heaven. I actually do think transhumanism is coming; humans merged with technology.

I am seeing more and more ads for different kinds of medical implants, to monitor blood sugar, to help breath properly while sleeping, and of course we have had pacemakers and other things for decades.

I say bring it on.