Questions that believers cannot answer

[Trailblazer]

*sigh*
It may not be the actual words you used, but it is the implication of what you said.
"God only does what God chooses to do. As humans we cannot do anything about that"

That does not mean we are God's playthings, that is just what you believe it means.

So we are just subject to god's whim, no matter how irrational.

No, we are subject to God's will, whether we like it or not.

That makes no sense.
Before we existed, how could god love us?

God knew He would love us before He created us. Then He created us.

3: O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 4

And if he loved us, why did he create us in such a way that necessitates so much suffering? That is not rational behaviour.

It is not rational or irrational, it simply is the way God decided to do it.

So we agree that there is no point and no need for the universe or humanity to exist.
So all the suffering is not just completely meaningless, it is deliberately sadistic.

I never said that. Suffering has a purpose even if we do not realize it till later.

 

[Truth in love]

That is true, but the problem is that we cannot SEE into eternity, we can only have faith that the next life exists and it will be much better than this life!

Interestingly, what you just said is in the scriptures of my religion, almost verbatim, so if course I believe it.

“O thou who art the fruit of My Tree and the leaf thereof! On thee be My glory and My mercy. Let not thine heart grieve over what hath befallen thee. Wert thou to scan the pages of the Book of Life, thou wouldst, most certainly, discover that which would dissipate thy sorrows and dissolve thine anguish.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 132-133

By Book of Life He means fate and predestination, as the Book of Life contains everything that has ever happened to us and everything that will ever happen to us in this world and the next world.

Cool I’ve seen a lot a parallels over the years with the Baha’i faith.

I believe they are different because God made them that way.
I believe the prophets, who I normally refer to as Messengers of God, have a twofold nature, one human and one divine, whereas ordinary humans only have a human nature.

Do you believe that Jesus was merely human? It is clear to me that Jesus was more than human, but He was not God incarnate, He was a Manifestation of God.

I believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, but not His own Father.

also that we all have the same core nature. That we lived as spirits before birth. In this life we take on a physical body which will rise with us some day as a part of our eternal progression.

 

[Trailblazer]

The word "benevolent" has a meaning.
If a person deliberately causes pain and suffering, or if they do not prevent pain and suffering if they are able to, then they are not benevolent, by definition.
That is all. You cannot redefine words just because the actual definition doesn't suit you.

I do no have to redefine the word, I know what it means.
If you don't think the existence of pain and suffering means God is not benevolent, that is your personal opinion, nothing more. It is not a fact.

Why not? I would if I were god. Wouldn't you?

I am not God and neither are you so we cannot prevent suffering.
What we would do is a moot point since God knows more than we know since God is all-knowing and we are not.

The suffering is only temporary. It will end when we leave his physical world and enter the spiritual world, if we play our cards right in this world.

So you think that god is not loving, but you believe that he is loving.
That makes less sense than most of your arguments!

It is not an argument. I do not feel that God is loving, but I believe that God is loving.
Do you think we should rely upon feelings rather than rational thoughts?

So you favour an illogical argument for god over a logical one against god.
Yeah, I'd kinda worked that out already.

No, either one is logical because there is no proof of God but I favor that God exists.

Who mentioned getting what you want? The point is that if god deliberately designed a universe to include a lot of unnecessary suffering, then god is a twat and doesn't deserve to be worshiped.
So, why do you worship such a god?

I believe in God and try to worship God mostly because I fear God. That is explained in this post:

Questions that believers cannot answer

But as it is part of god's perfect plan, the best way to achieve his goals, why do you even consider it to be suffering?

It has nothing to do with whether or not it is part of God's plan...
It is still suffering. If a person is suffering a person is suffering, that is physical or emotional, not something that can be wafted away just because we understand why.

There is nothing logical about it. As god can do anything, he could accomplish his plan without anyone suffering.

You do NOT know that because YOU are not God. You just believe you know that.
Moreover, even if God could have accomplished in another way, YOU do not know that way would be a better way.

Using all this new-found logic of yours, can you explain why it is so important to god that you suffer so much, while I don't suffer at all?

I do not really know what is important to God, all I have are scriptures to help me try to figure out why I suffer so much while others don't. One reason I suffer more is because that was my fate, and many things play into that fate, although God is ultimately responsible for our fate

Another reason I suffer more is because I am being tested by God. You do not believe in God so you are not going to be tested by God. Lucky you!

“Meditate profoundly, that the secret of things unseen may be revealed unto you, that you may inhale the sweetness of a spiritual and imperishable fragrance, and that you may acknowledge the truth that from time immemorial even unto eternity the Almighty hath tried, and will continue to try, His servants, so that light may be distinguished from darkness, truth from falsehood, right from wrong, guidance from error, happiness from misery, and roses from thorns. Even as He hath revealed: “Do men think when they say ‘We believe’ they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?” 5
Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 8-9

 

[Trailblazer]

Oh dear god!
Yes we do know, because of the meanings of the words.
A "merciful" god lets people off their deserved punishment.
A "just" god gives people what they deserve.
A "benevolent" is kind to people.

That is correct, that is what those words mean, but the reason your argument falls flat on its face is because you think you can determine what is kind.
What is kind or unkind is only your subjective personal opinion, your ego projection , NOT a fact.

Oh, fas! So how do you define "benevolent"? (Omni in this context just means "all", "most", etc. It does not affect the definition of the word)

benevolent:
well meaning and kindly. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=benevolent+means

 

[Trailblazer]

I believe that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, but not His own Father.

I am kind of confused. Can you explain what you mean by that?
Do you believe in the Trinity, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and they are all part of God?

also that we all have the same core nature. That we lived as spirits before birth. In this life we take on a physical body which will rise with us some day as a part of our eternal progression.

Where do you believe we lived as spirits before birth? I do not believe that the souls (spirits) of ordinary humans existed before conception in the mother's womb. I believe that only the souls of the Prophets were preexistent in the spiritual world before they were sent to this world to unite with their bodies.

So you believe that our physical body will rise from the grave, and the where do you think it will progress to?

What I believe will happen to our physical body and our spirit (soul) is explained in the quote below. It was written by a Christian but is congruent with Baha'i beliefs.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

 

[KWED]

That is illogical since God did not cause anyone to GET cancer.

Cancer is not caused by God so that is irrelevant.

You have admitted that "god ordains and manifests" events in our lives. Why does this not apply to cancer?
And even if god doesn't ordain that anyone has cancer, he could prevent it. Why did he create cancer in the first place?

Why are children dying of cancer more important than adults dying of cancer? I am looking forward to your explanation.

Where did I say they were more important?
I use the example of infants because it negates the "It's a punishment for their sins" argument of some apologists.

That's right, and for a purpose.

So now you admit that god does indeed cause suffering.
What is that purpose?
What is the purpose behind infants with cancer?

That's right, but He didn't, so why waste time talking about it?

Because it's an important issue that underlies the irrational nature of religious belief.

Just your personal opinion.

Why do you think that some suffering is necessary, especially in the context of a god that can create a universe without suffering?
Remember that - the suffering we see in not necessary because god could have made the universe suffering free. But you claim it is necessary. So why?

It also makes no sense to me so you are preaching to the choir.

But you don't care that it makes no sense. You just accept it anyway.

The religious apologetic is that those who suffer most attain the most perfection.

Convenient.
Why would that be the case? It certainly isn't the case in real life.

I do not believe that is true. Happy, well-educated, comfortable, well-adjusted people also have a religion, I know lots of them.

1. I was talking about "finding" religion, not being raised in it.
2. I said "tend to be more likely" not "it never happens".

No you cannot, it is just ego projection.

Din't think you understand what "ego" means.

God would do x if God was benevolent.

Correct. "Benevolent" has meaning, and that meaning involves certain types of behaviour. A benevolent person helps people avoid suffering rather than inflicting suffering. Pretty simple really.

I do not think the beliefs have anything to do with this. We can get some answers as to whether suffering helped people grow stronger if we talk to people who have suffered a lot and look at their lives, and these people could be atheists or believers.

People's beliefs are definitely shaped by their life experiences to some degree. Genuinely puzzled that you think otherwise. Do you think people's beliefs just appear in their minds, fully formed, out of nowhere?

 

[KWED]

God doesn't change the outcome because God honors free will.

You have already admitted that god ordains and manifests events in people's lives. That necessarily negates free will.
You are back to contradicting yourself again - possibly because you didn't really understand what you were saying in the first place.

 

[KWED]

No, because not being able to understand how anyone can love God and have compassion for humans at the same time does not disqualify me from being a Baha'i.

The only requirement for being a Baha'i is that I believe Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God.

So Bahaullah is more important to Bahais than god?

 

[KWED]

I never said I thought it was good, didn't you read by OP?
I believe God is cruel for creating a world with all this suffering, and I told Him so on my walk a little while ago.

It is not about what God 'allows', it is about what God created, a world that is a Storehouse of Suffering.

Why would God disallow suffering when He created the world this way knowing people would suffer?

You are really making no sense here.
You think god was wrong to create the universe the way he did, but at the same time accept that it is the best universe possible?

When I said "It is necessary because God created the world that way" I meant it is necessary to endure suffering because we have no choice.

Not having a choice doesn't make something necessary.
The murder victim doesn't have a choice about being killed. Does that make their death necessary? You seem to be implying again that god had no choice n=but too create the universe the way he did.

 

[KWED]

I just explained that.
It is necessary to endure suffering because God created the world that way.
We do not have a choice since this world is what it is....
It does not matter if God could have created this world differently because He didn't.

That does not explain why the suffering is necessary. It only acknowledges that we have no alternative but to suffer it, because it happens.
The question is - "why was it necessary for god to create a universe with suffering?"

 

[KWED]

Why follow the oughts and rules of such a being?

It is becoming apparent that, at least in @Trailblazer's version of Bahaism, Bahaullah is the voice of authority and object of devotion rather than god.

 

[KWED]

I just thought of an answer to your question. I cannot speak for other believers but I follow God because I am afraid of Him. I am sure you have heard the expression Fear of God.

Why would god want you to fear him?
On the other hand, it is obvious why men would want to establish a system that instills fear and obedience into the masses.
The promise of reward and the threat of punishment is what has always motivated people, and always will. And what better threat and reward than ones that are limitless and everlasting?

 

[samtonga43]

There is no contradiction between loving God and fearing God, one can do both.

One certainly can. So DO you love God, Tb?

 

[Trailblazer]

One certainly can. So DO you love God, Tb?

According to the definition love is an intense feeling of deep affection. I do not feel that way about God.

@Truthseeker and I talk a a lot about my love for God and this is what he said:

Truthseeker said:
You also forget about this Hidden Word:

48. O SON OF MAN!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Duane said that he has seen me display these qualities, and I know I display them, so according to Baha'u'llah I love God, even if I do not "feel" that way.

My complaining about God is not a sign of anything but my feelings. Despite my feelings I always endure the trials and I have a lot of patience.

 

[rational experiences]

Human being man.

Humans story is in the presence as the human reality. Lived on humans earth in humans living conditions. Only. Is exact.

Is legal. For humans.

First two human parents. No thesis. No science.

Exact. Legal.

Man of god. Church medical science was implemented. As karmic price of the science of man machine technology. That had caused life's sacrifice.

Medical science then paid service to humanity. Legally the debt of science. Or if humans had sued you. Legal. Life harmed.

Free service. Compensation by hypocrites. Rich man not as richest man as other rich men.

Began to make them pay a tithe by legal compensation. How he became in control of saving life on earth. By man choice behaviour only.

Rich church man did not own the testimonial. It was a scientific review why the celibate life of man from baby man human son was sacrificed.

Seeing a human baby is not God created exists in human life by human sex only.

Celibacy was his legal stand. Knew forced position was man upon woman as life continuance.

His wrong was maths space womb thesis. Why life was caused sacrificed. As gravitational earth forces shifted mass. Shifted the iced poles.

Earth had become a new desert. As the sea had shifted its mass atop of life's living old garden nature leaving sea land bared. Cities under sea. Garden gone.

Less land to grow garden as salted land now existed. A lesser garden as eviction he had caused was lived and witnessed. Gravitational mass had in fact shifted earths holy life support.

His legal book not the bible was taken on bible advice only and was gods. The earth mass change. To God only about criminal behaviour scientist. Legal included why by machine causes science man had murdered human animal gardens origin holy life.

By eviction.

History Egyptian science. Muslim man's review gained sacrificed man life as his egyotians scientists memory. DNA tribal family changed.

Baha'i standing versed a returned man's science memory in Muslim man mind. Upheld the teaching legal law governing about Jesus testimonial.

Medical and church founding. Gods legal book a separate book just community law.

Supported the Roman church founding which had already tried to implement...governing as mutual. The medical service was the church building.

Built in other countries proving the use advice was healing humanity by medical advice. Remedies.

Was not accepted by the mind uprising of science terms again. By falling star returning conscious attacks on balanced mind brain.

Head terms as brain prickling by falling spirit.

Muslim Egyptian control history technical land rights. Pyramids science temple.

Wars.

Baha'i man advice was correct about mutual holy governing past. Not under rich man's controls. Exact. The lesser rich man. Only because as civilisation is first man's evil position without technology it could not just be eradicated. Man's evil choice.

And trade still involved rich man's position is ignored as relevant human advice today.

The Baha'i heard the founding message given to his brothers mind in his past about a holy equal mutual governing trade. Humans compensation real. Same advice.

Gods oath only the legal book.

Testimony of sacrifice was man's sciences evil testimony.

Why legal is an oath to God and not Jesus.

As legally Jesus should not have occurred. As it stated it was built...the earthquake and near destruction of life on earth.

Based on Levi. Levitations man caused to earths mass shifting it's load.

Just as warned man will try to do it again by his choice and machine. Future conscious possession theist.

Possessed by Satan's star inherited brain state.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not feel that God is loving, but I believe that God is loving.
Do you think we should rely upon feelings rather than rational thoughts?

There's hope for you yet.

 

[Truthseeker]

What I believe will happen to our physical body and our spirit (soul) is explained in the quote below. It was written by a Christian but is congruent with Baha'i beliefs.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

Emanuel Swedenburg. I have that in Ocean 2.0.

XLVI. The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

445. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life.1

1In the Word "death" signifies resurrection, for when man dies his life still goes on.
Emanuel Swedenborg, "Heaven and Hell"

446. There is an inmost communication of the spirit with the breathing and with the beating of the heart, the spirit’s thought communicating with the breathing, and its affection, which is of love, with the heart1; consequently when these two motions cease in the body there is at once a separation. These two motions, the respiration of the lungs and the beating of heart, are the very bond on the sundering of which the spirit is left to itself; and the body being then deprived of the life of its spirit grows cold and begins to decay. This inmost communication of the spirit of man is with the respiration and with the heart, because on these all vital motions depend, not only in general but in every particular.2

1The heart corresponds to the will, thus to the affection which belongs to the love, while the respiration of the lungs corresponds to the understanding, thus to the thought . From this the "heart" in the Word signifies the will and love. The "soul" signifies understanding, faith, and truth; therefore "from the soul and from the heart" signifies what is from the understanding, faith, and truth, and what is from the will, love, and good. The correspondence of the heart and lungs with the Greatest Man, or heaven.

2The beating of the heart and the respiration of the lungs reign in the body throughout, and flow mutually into every part.
Emanuel Swedenborg, "Heaven and Hell", 46.2

 

[Truthseeker]

According to the definition love is an intense feeling of deep affection. I do not feel that way about God.

@Truthseeker and I talk a a lot about my love for God and this is what he said:

Truthseeker said:
You also forget about this Hidden Word:

48. O SON OF MAN!
For everything there is a sign. The sign of love is fortitude under My decree and patience under My trials.
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

Duane said that he has seen me display these qualities, and I know I display them, so according to Baha'u'llah I love God, even if I do not "feel" that way.

My complaining about God is not a sign of anything but my feelings. Despite my feelings I always endure the trials and I have a lot of patience.

Glad I could be of service.

 

[Trailblazer]

Emanuel Swedenburg. I have that in Ocean 2.0.

XLVI. The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

445. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life.1

1In the Word "death" signifies resurrection, for when man dies his life still goes on.
Emanuel Swedenborg, "Heaven and Hell"

446. There is an inmost communication of the spirit with the breathing and with the beating of the heart, the spirit’s thought communicating with the breathing, and its affection, which is of love, with the heart1; consequently when these two motions cease in the body there is at once a separation. These two motions, the respiration of the lungs and the beating of heart, are the very bond on the sundering of which the spirit is left to itself; and the body being then deprived of the life of its spirit grows cold and begins to decay. This inmost communication of the spirit of man is with the respiration and with the heart, because on these all vital motions depend, not only in general but in every particular.2

1The heart corresponds to the will, thus to the affection which belongs to the love, while the respiration of the lungs corresponds to the understanding, thus to the thought . From this the "heart" in the Word signifies the will and love. The "soul" signifies understanding, faith, and truth; therefore "from the soul and from the heart" signifies what is from the understanding, faith, and truth, and what is from the will, love, and good. The correspondence of the heart and lungs with the Greatest Man, or heaven.

2The beating of the heart and the respiration of the lungs reign in the body throughout, and flow mutually into every part.
Emanuel Swedenborg, "Heaven and Hell", 46.2

I do not have any version of Ocean, but I have the links to both versions of the books Heaven and Hell since the entire book is free to read online. I think I once purchased the book but I don't know where it is now..

 

[Trailblazer]

Glad I could be of service.

Just being here is a service.... You have no idea how happy I am when I see the series of Alerts that are all from you.... I know there is never anything to fear because you would never say anything that isn't kind and caring and compassionate.

I just back from my two hour walk in the dark to and saw the Alerts from you....
I have a long talk with God on my walk, nit tat He didn't already know what I told Him. But when there is nobody else to talk to in person, I can always talk to God and I know he is listening, unlike Lewis ever did.