Double-blind Prayer Efficacy Test -- Really?

[Polymath257]

Yeah, 15 years or so ago my mother confessed that I have an older brother. She and my father had it out of wedlock and it was hushed up.
There was shame. Like with crazies who have guns in some countries but won't go shooting schools up because there's this shame factor for their reputation and for their family. Get rid of shame and you can more or less do anything without social reproach - drugs, abortion, stealing, even killing grandma by convincing her she is a burden. If you have no shame you will pay a lot more in taxes for the government to protect you from weirdos, and to cover the loss of children who could be tax payers themselves one day.

Screw shame. It hurts people more than it helps, usually hurting the victims even more. What good was done by hiding your brother? None whatsoever. If that is what social cohesion means, then it needs to go away.

The point is that when divorce was not easier to get families 'stayed together', but there was much more abuse, both of spouses and of children. It was seen as 'normal'. Broken families do have consequences, but they are far less than those of abuse.

If you want to have shame, how about shame of multibillionaires? How about the shame of those lying from the pulpit to get their political candidate into office? How about shame for drawing voting districts in a way that allows your side to win even if 60% vote the other way? How about shame for corporations polluting and making the air and water unhealthy? How about the shame of insane amounts of wealth in the hands of a few while others only miles away starve?

Somehow *that* shame was never part of things before. Only those who had sex before marriage were condemned. Only those who were poor and couldn't find a way to feed their families were condemned. Only those who pointed out the dishonesty of the authorities were condemned.

The US has *always* had those who were against immigrants, from the Irish, to the Italians, to the Slavs, to the Latinos. There is *always* a fear that the new immigrants will destroy society and cause chaos. And, in every case, it is the reactionaries that cause most of the chaos and destruction, not the hard working immigrants that just want a better life.

We needed shame, but in a far different direction that we had. We shamed people who did little wrong and not those that ran roughshod over others. We shamed people for being different when that should be celebrated while not shaming the mindless conformity most people had. We shamed people for finding love in the way that worked for them while accepting those who condemned homosexuality.

 

[Polymath257]

Yes, shame was a big deal. You heard of 'honor killings' ? There was family honor, sometimes (even today) family members are murdered for upsetting family honor. That goes back to an age when there were no police, security or cameras.

That seems to me like a very good argument *against* having shame for such things. if your notion of honor induces you to kill your sister or her boyfriend, then your notion of honor is messed up.

Honor killings are not honorable. They are despicable.

 

[KWED]

The universe cannot create itself when it did not exist

No one claims that the universe created itself before it existed, so that's a very poorly constructed straw man.

Therefor something 'outside' the universe created the universe

Not necessarily. "Creation" implies agency. Natural processes have no agency. Also, the stuff the universe is formed from could have always existed. You can't dismiss that idea because you insist that things can exist eternally.

And there needs to be a reason

Does there? Why?

as all things have reasons for being.

Do they? What is the "reason" for snowflakes, or mountains, or wind?

 

[Polymath257]

We had this student at our technical college ca 1967 (that dates me) who came from a broken family. We thought there was something wrong with him.

And you want to go back to saying there must be something wrong with someone merely because they are from a broken home? The people that needed to be shamed were all those who thought something was wrong with this person who was not responsible for their situation.

 

[PruePhillip]

Screw shame. It hurts people more than it helps, usually hurting the victims even more. What good was done by hiding your brother? None whatsoever. If that is what social cohesion means, then it needs to go away.

The point is that when divorce was not easier to get families 'stayed together', but there was much more abuse, both of spouses and of children. It was seen as 'normal'. Broken families do have consequences, but they are far less than those of abuse.

If you want to have shame, how about shame of multibillionaires? How about the shame of those lying from the pulpit to get their political candidate into office? How about shame for drawing voting districts in a way that allows your side to win even if 60% vote the other way? How about shame for corporations polluting and making the air and water unhealthy? How about the shame of insane amounts of wealth in the hands of a few while others only miles away starve?

Somehow *that* shame was never part of things before. Only those who had sex before marriage were condemned. Only those who were poor and couldn't find a way to feed their families were condemned. Only those who pointed out the dishonesty of the authorities were condemned.

The US has *always* had those who were against immigrants, from the Irish, to the Italians, to the Slavs, to the Latinos. There is *always* a fear that the new immigrants will destroy society and cause chaos. And, in every case, it is the reactionaries that cause most of the chaos and destruction, not the hard working immigrants that just want a better life.

We needed shame, but in a far different direction that we had. We shamed people who did little wrong and not those that ran roughshod over others. We shamed people for being different when that should be celebrated while not shaming the mindless conformity most people had. We shamed people for finding love in the way that worked for them while accepting those who condemned homosexuality.

So we take someone like Elon Musk and we feel 'shame' for his achievements in bringing electric cars to mainstream, and figuring out how to open space for all. And then there's his Solar City, batteries for alternative energy, his revolution in tunnel boring and the hyperloop 1,000 kph train.
We are ashame of him.
But we aren't ashamed of dead-beat dads, people who burn buildings in defund-the-police riots, people who park their mattress on your sidewalk and crap in your garden, people who abort a child on the day it's to be born, people who shop-lift because it's not a felony and they are poor, people who terminate their grandmother because she's a burden, people who 'do drugs' and the like. When that happens I suggest you get out of that neighborhood - and it reminds me of California. today.
Hope Musk sets up shop in Texas.

 

[Polymath257]

I imagine that the universe created itself before it existed, and for no reason - now THAT'S quite an imagination.

Good thing nobody believes what you just said.

No, the universe did NOT 'create itself'. And no it certainly didn't do that 'before it existed'.

As for reason, that is essentially the question of causality and there are good reasons to think the universe as a whole cannot be caused.

 

[Polymath257]

More 'flawed reasoning':

The universe cannot create itself when it did not exist

True.

Therefor something 'outside' the universe created the universe

False conclusion.

And there needs to be a reason as all things have reasons for being.

Really? Prove it.

 

[PruePhillip]

No one claims that the universe created itself before it existed, so that's a very poorly constructed straw man.

Not necessarily. "Creation" implies agency. Natural processes have no agency. Also, the stuff the universe is formed from could have always existed. You can't dismiss that idea because you insist that things can exist eternally.

Does there? Why?

Do they? What is the "reason" for snowflakes, or mountains, or wind?

True.
Really? Prove it.

What reason a snowflake? Because of physics. Something about the molecular bonds which form cystals in water, and gravity, and water vapor and temperature and sunlight etc.. There's a reason for every snowflake ---- even the ones in our campuses.
Saying something has existed forever is
1 - probably wrong
2 - avoids the question.

If the universe didn't create itself, what or who did? And why?

 

[Polymath257]

So we take someone like Elon Musk and we feel 'shame' for his achievements in bringing electric cars to mainstream, and figuring out how to open space for all. And then there's his Solar City, batteries for alternative energy, his revolution in tunnel boring and the hyperloop 1,000 kph train.
We are ashame of him.

There is a difference between achievements, which are something to be proud of and having wealth more than many countries. That is obscene.

Whatever happened to 'give away all you have and follow me'?

But we aren't ashamed of dead-beat dads, people who burn buildings in defund-the-police riots, people who park their mattress on your sidewalk and crap in your garden, people who abort a child on the day it's to be born, people who shop-lift because it's not a felony and they are poor, people who terminate their grandmother because she's a burden, people who 'do drugs' and the like. When that happens I suggest you get out of that neighborhood - and it reminds me of California. today.
Hope Musk sets up shop in Texas.

Instead of shaming those people, how about *helping them*? So they actually have a place to sleep and go to the bathroom instead of having to do it in the street? Or where they can get the mental health care they need so they can find and keep a job? Or making sure that the job they can get can actually pay for a place to live? Or that medical care is inexpensive so that paying for grandma never becomes a burden? Or making sure that child care is available so someone can actually have a job *and* take care of their children? Or that there is sufficient leave from work to allow for child care?

The shame is that we don't address these problems. We could have universal health care like most of the developed world. We could have drug treatment paid for like most of the rest of the world. We could have social services available like most of the rest of the world.

But we choose not to. And we should be ashamed of that.

 

[Polymath257]

What reason a snowflake? Because of physics. Something about the molecular bonds which form cystals in water, and gravity, and water vapor and temperature and sunlight etc.. There's a reason for every snowflake ---- even the ones in our campuses.
Saying something has existed forever is
1 - probably wrong
2 - avoids the question.

If the universe didn't create itself, what or who did? And why?

Yes, many things *within* the universe have causes. But all causes are within the universe. There are none outside of the universe.

And that is why the universe as a whole cannot have a cause.

More so, all causes are due to the laws of physics. And those concern what happens in space and time: in other words, what happens *in* the universe. And since time is *part of the universe*, to even talk about 'before time' or a 'cause for the universe' is incoherent.

If the universe has existed for an infinite period of time (we don't know), then again there would be no cause for it.

Exactly when did you prove that something can't exist forever?

 

[PruePhillip]

Yes, many things *within* the universe have causes. But all causes are within the universe. There are none outside of the universe.

And that is why the universe as a whole cannot have a cause.

More so, all causes are due to the laws of physics. And those concern what happens in space and time: in other words, what happens *in* the universe. And since time is *part of the universe*, to even talk about 'before time' or a 'cause for the universe' is incoherent.

If the universe has existed for an infinite period of time (we don't know), then again there would be no cause for it.

Exactly when did you prove that something can't exist forever?

But God in some other worldly realm can't exist forever, but the universe can?
And the cause of the universe is something WITHIN the universe?

ps I think the understanding is the universe had a beginning, for some unknown cause and reason, but will have an 'end' in that it will expand till it tears and 'time' as we know it ceases.

 

[Sheldon]

But it was a big shock with heroin once, even the Mafia said it was 'too hot' to get involved with. Now look.

What was a big shock? Now look what? You realise that heroin was legal in the US until 1924? Though heroin and pot are hardly comparable.

 

[PruePhillip]

There is a difference between achievements, which are something to be proud of and having wealth more than many countries. That is obscene.

Whatever happened to 'give away all you have and follow me'?



Instead of shaming those people, how about *helping them*? So they actually have a place to sleep and go to the bathroom instead of having to do it in the street? Or where they can get the mental health care they need so they can find and keep a job? Or making sure that the job they can get can actually pay for a place to live? Or that medical care is inexpensive so that paying for grandma never becomes a burden? Or making sure that child care is available so someone can actually have a job *and* take care of their children? Or that there is sufficient leave from work to allow for child care?

The shame is that we don't address these problems. We could have universal health care like most of the developed world. We could have drug treatment paid for like most of the rest of the world. We could have social services available like most of the rest of the world.

But we choose not to. And we should be ashamed of that.

Here's the problem with homelessness. We provide a home for someone without a home. Sounds great - like the sub-prime collapse it's a good idea until it's time to blame someone else for it. And then there are more homeless to take more homes. Indeed, I should sell my home, invest my return and claim a homeless benefit.
There's a long chain of events - non-events that led to someone being homeless. And with broken homes, sneering at people who achieve something, politicizing our education system, challenging the values that made our country etc etc etc we wind up with a lot more homeless.

ps I would love to see more billionaires and trillionaires in our society - it means we are all benefiting. Poor nations have few millionaires, rich nations have many. Let's have money, and stop the corrosive envy.

 

[PruePhillip]

What was a big shock? Now look what? You realise that heroin was legal in the US until 1924? Though heroin and pot are hardly comparable.

Heroin in the 1960's and 1970's was a big fat no no.
I remember some druggies, in justifying dope, claim they would 'bash' anyone they saw sticking needles in their arms.

 

[Sheldon]

Yes, you could say that. But I don't think anyone SAID anything, we just thought maybe he's broken too. But now divorce is mainstream, and it has become a tragedy for millions of children.

Not necessarily, plenty of children live happy adjusted lives with single parents, or even divorced parents.

Sometimes we need to be 'bigots' when it comes to things like narcotics, marriage, adultery, gambling etc.. Because if you 'tolerate' something it can take over.

You have an uncanny knack of lumping harmless things with pernicious behaviours, as if they are all the same. You've also used another slippery slope fallacy.

 

[Polymath257]

But God in some other worldly realm can't exist forever, but the universe can?
And the cause of the universe is something WITHIN the universe?

Since there is no evidence of an 'other worldly realm', the first question is irrelevant.

And, as I said, ALL causes are within the universe, which means the universe *cannot* be caused. No cause within and no cause outside.

ps I think the understanding is the universe had a beginning, for some unknown cause and reason, but will have an 'end' in that it will expand till it tears and 'time' as we know it ceases.

There is still a lot of uncertainty about this issue. A lot depends on which theory of quantum gravity turns out to be true. For most scenarios, our universe is one of many in a multiverse. If that is the case, all causes would be in the multiverse and we just transfer all questions to that level instead of focusing on just our universe.

So, in that case, our universe would have a cause: different rates of expansion in the multiverse producing 'bubbles' that internalyl look like our universe.

But then, the multiverse would exist forever and be uncaused.

 

[Polymath257]

Heroin in the 1960's and 1970's was a big fat no no.
I remember some druggies, in justifying dope, claim they would 'bash' anyone they saw sticking needles in their arms.

And in the late 1800's, Coca Cola had cocaine in it. Heroin was supposed to be better than opium for addiction, etc.

Many writers and scientists used cocaine or opium. it didn't have the same stigma it does today. Of course, many of the effects were not known yet either.

 

[Sheldon]

The universe cannot create itself

You were the one who said it had, not me.

when it did not exist

How do you know it didn't exist in a different form? You seem to be proving my point about leaping to assumptions based on unevidenced imagination.

Therefor something 'outside' the universe created the universe

More flawed reasoning based on pure imagination. You have no idea how the universe we currently observe came to exist, you're just making unevidenced assertions.

And there needs to be a reason

Another unevidenced assumption.

all things have reasons for being.

And another, since we can only observe this causal effect within the temporal physical universe....you're proving my point more and more. imagination is a useful tool, but basing beliefs on nothing but imagination is flawed reasoning.

 

[Sheldon]

But God in some other worldly realm can't exist forever, but the universe can?

That type of counter argument is called Whataboutism...here's a clue for you, we already know a universe is possible, we have no such evidence for any deity. Do you know what a false dichotomy fallacy is? I've linked an explanation for you.

 

[Sheldon]

I think the understanding is the universe had a beginning, for some unknown cause and reason, but will have an 'end' in that it will expand till it tears and 'time' as we know it ceases.

I think the universe had a point of origin is a more accurate description, as time as we understand it is dependant on the existence of the physical temporal universe, Something cannot begin in the sense we'd understand it, if time did not exist.