Circumcision without consent. Is it wrong?

[Subduction Zone]

Because the procedure isn't risky if performed on an infant.

It can be. And especially when performed by an amateur. And even more so when very unsanitary action is part of the rite. There have been more than a few babies that have died from herpes that was passed on by the mohel that circumcised them. And who knows how many others were infected by this procedure but did not die. Herpes, which is nonthreatening to an adult, can be deadly for infants:

Baby Dies of Herpes in Ritual Circumcision By Orthodox Jews

I could post more but I do not have the stomach for it.

 

[Koldo]

Apples and oranges, false equivalence.

Just because you say so?

 

[Koldo]

Sexual activity with a minor is not the same as a medical procedure on an infant.

An unnecessary medical procedure.
It is not the same situation, but it is the same underlying reasoning.
The issue is whether we should allow for 'retroactive' consent. If you are going to call it valid for circumcision, why not for statutory rape?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just a gentle reminder to all of our religious friends. Your children are not your possessions. It is best to think of them as being on loan. And even though people may not like it, they do not get to decide their child's religious views for the rest of their lives. You get a very very strong head start on other religions, but even before they are adults they are on their own.

If circumcision is so important to you then try to give your child the best education that you can so that they will opt to do this for themselves.

If people are willing to do that to their ears for a mere fashion statement, you should be able to convince your child to eventually opt for a circumcision when he is of age.

 

[dybmh]

An unnecessary medical procedure.
It is not the same situation, but it is the same underlying reasoning.
The issue is whether we should allow for 'retroactive' consent. If you are going to call it valid for circumcision, why not for statutory rape?

"Statutory rape laws presume coercion. ... It is generally intended to punish heinous cases of an adult taking sexual advantage of a minor" - Statutory rape - Wikipedia

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Just a gentle reminder to all of our religious friends. Your children are not your possessions. It is best to think of them as being on loan. And even though people may not like it, they do not get to decide their child's religious views for the rest of their lives. You get a very very strong head start on other religions, but even before they are adults they are on their own.

If circumcision is so important to you then try to give your child the best education that you can so that they will opt to do this for themselves.

If people are willing to do that to their ears for a mere fashion statement, you should be able to convince your child to eventually opt for a circumcision when he is of age.

It is not so simple to place that argument into a cultural debate...it's not going to meet the burden of proof.
I would never let my child access a firearm in the hope that education in the future might teach them how to use it safely. In the same manner circumcision is a manner for parents to choose just like immunization is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It is not so simple to place that argument into a cultural debate...it's not going to meet the burden of proof.
I would never let my child access a firearm in the hope that education in the future might teach them how to use it safely. In the same manner circumcision is a manner for parents to choose just like immunization is.

What? This makes little to no sense. What does this have to do with the fact that your children are not yours to do with as you wish?

 

[Koldo]

"Statutory rape laws presume coercion. ... It is generally intended to punish heinous cases of an adult taking sexual advantage of a minor" - Statutory rape - Wikipedia

Exactly. It presumes coercion even though it might not be the case.

By your reasoning, shouldn't we let the child become of age to check whether that presumption was mistaken before punishing anyone? If not, why not?

 

[Koldo]

It is not so simple to place that argument into a cultural debate...it's not going to meet the burden of proof.
I would never let my child access a firearm in the hope that education in the future might teach them how to use it safely. In the same manner circumcision is a manner for parents to choose just like immunization is.

For parents to choose what?
Circumcision is not about health, except when strictly medically necessary. It is rather about culture and religion.

 

[dybmh]

"Statutory rape laws presume coercion. ... It is generally intended to punish heinous cases of an adult taking sexual advantage of a minor" - Statutory rape - Wikipedia

Exactly. It presumes coercion even though it might not be the case.

By your reasoning, shouldn't we let the child become of age to check whether that presumption was mistaken before punishing anyone? If not, why not?

Because the rape case is heinous and involves an adult taking advantage of a minor. For circumcison, it's parents doing what they think their child will want them to do.

 

[ppp]

Because the rape case is heinous and involves an adult taking advantage of a minor. For circumcison, it's parents doing what they think their child will want them to do.

More like what they want their child to want them to do. So, you know, an adult taking advantage of their power over a minor.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The best time to circumcise is at infancy.

NIH.gov - A 'snip' in time: what is the best age to circumcise?

Of course it is... if you don't force them to when they're too young to give consent no one would ever get it done. It's easy to give your consent retroactively when it's already a done deal and you can't change the fact. I seriously doubt you would have given consent if you'd been given the choice as an adult.

 

[dybmh]

More like what they want their child to want them to do. So, you know, an adult taking advantage of their power over a minor.

Completely, 100%, false.

 

[dybmh]

Of course it is... if you don't force them to when they're too young to give consent no one would ever get it done. It's easy to give your consent retroactively when it's already a done deal and you can't change the fact. I seriously doubt you would have given consent if you'd been given the choice as an adult.

Did you take a look at the article I cited? It lists many medical benefits of circumcision.

 

[Revoltingest]

Completely, 100%, false.

Parents do tend to indoctrinate their
kids into their particular religion.
So not 100% false.

 

[dybmh]

Parents do tend to indoctrinate their
kids into their particular religion.
So not 100% false.

I can say from experience that this is not why my wife and I chose to have my son circumcised. We did it to make it easier for him; we thought we were doing him a favor having it done when he was an infant. It had nothing to do with indoctrination.

 

[Revoltingest]

I can say from experience that this is not why my wife and I chose to have my son circumcised. We did it to make it easier for him; we thought we were doing him a favor having it done when he was an infant. It had nothing to do with indoctrination.

@Policy said...
"More like what they want their child to want them to do.
So, you know, an adult taking advantage of their power
over a minor."
The first sentence is about making the child want to
have been circumcised....why? Cuz of their religion.

 

[dybmh]

@Policy said...
"More like what they want their child to want them to do.
So, you know, an adult taking advantage of their power
over a minor."
The first sentence is about making the child want to
have been circumcised....why? Cuz of their religion.

I did not take advantage of my power over my child. That's 100% false.

 

[Revoltingest]

I did not take advantage of my power over my child.

Did you pick their religion for them?
And train them in it?

 

[dybmh]

Did you pick their religion for them?
And train them in it?

Yes, but that's not the same as taking advantage of my power over them. It's natural for a child to want to do what their parents are doing. My son absolutley has a choice to adopt my religion or not. Getting him circumcised gives him the option to be religious or not. We gave him more options since he can certainly be irreligious without his foreskin. But the converse isn't true.

What we did was no different from any other parental choice. We weighed the options and did what we thought would be best for him.