India on trial...... Political/Educational/Worldwide

[JIMMY12345]

The girl (Muslim) is clad in black. She carefully parks her moped. As she enters her school she is ambushed. A group of boys (Hindu) clad in saffron scarfs object to her hijab. Principal and Teachers run. They carefully escort her inside. Millions watched on mobile/TV screens worldwide. Some Indian schools are closed for 2 weeks. January is the coolest month in India. Temperatures need to cool further.

In Afghanistan the politicians do not want girls to have an education. They also do want them to wear the hijab. Some Indian schools want the girls to have an education. They also do not want hijabs. This on grounds that it is not part of official school uniform. Do this and some parents will keep some girls from school. Schools are there to educate not dictate.

On the face of it there should be no problem or need for discussion. Make the Hijab (like turbans are) part of the school uniform. That is would allow the girls to continue with their schooling. Pupils just want to learn. Teachers just want to teach. Parents want both to get on with the job. Education is no longer education. It is an exam factory hothouse. In India students oft have additional tuition and study till midnight. Student life is painful enough as it is.

The Hindu religion comprised 82% of population. Muslim 14%. Hinduism relies heavily on scriptures. Vedas and Upanishads. Dharma sets for cosmic law. It sets for correct behaviour. Theoretically India is secular. Practically it is religious. This is largely thanks to the genius of Mr. Modi. He has ushered in modern reforms and it platforms. He enjoys genuine popularity. He should. His efforts help catapult India into approaching Superpower status. His BJP party has a Hindu religious base. A tiny minority of his acolytes and supporters want to advance religious mission creep. This a Trojan horse. Really its calculated disguise to accumulate money and power. All the time innocently waving their hands. Claiming they are doing in the name of faith. Their tactics to accuse other faiths of press ganging converts. They (and everyone else) knows that view is really a load of rubbish.

It will be difficult for Mr. Modi. Ideally he should discipline religious hardliners who fall into the too easy trap of extremism. They are goondas (thugs). The dilemma is he needs to keep them on side. Marrying ethical and spiritual practice with practical politics may not be possible, China easily overtakes India on the economic front. In China citizens faithfully follow state orders and deliver economic miracles. Indians do not. India’s miracle is in its much vaunted brand label “The world’s largest democracy”.

Indian courts will pass judgement this week.
Common sense should prevail. It may not. Elections are around the corner. Namaste.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The case is being discussed in State High Court. The Indian Supreme Court is aware of it. If need be, they will consider it. It is a state rule: 'no religious dress in schools/colleges'. Let the court decide on the validity of the law or the state government may make necessary changes. Why jump the gun? As you said it is a matter of only a week.
Hijab controversy: HC told that Karnataka’s dress code guideline is violative of fundamental rights

 

[sun rise]

A tiny minority of his acolytes and supporters want to advance religious mission creep.

It is a state rule: 'no religious dress in schools/colleges'.

Neither of these opinions is correct. The hijab controversy needs to be taken in context of other events such as bigoted attacks by Hindus on Muslims, attacks on Christians over alleged conversions of Hindus, https://cruxnow.com/church-in-asia/2021/12/hindu-nationalists-attack-catholic-school-in-india for example.

Here's a good review of how India really functions as a religious state that acts according to

So, no one is perturbed when government functions start with Ganesh vandana or Saraswati vandana and the lighting of auspicious lamps. This has become a normative idea. Nobody questions when a government functionary breaks a coconut while inaugurating a flyover or an airport or even commissioning a frigate or a warship. It’s a normal thing for a government-run education to have an idol of Saraswati at its gate (Indian Institute of Mass Communication in Delhi has one). Nobody bothers about why Hindi language courses are laden with Hindu religious texts. It has been a practice that whenever the Indian Space Research Organisation launches a satellite, its chief pays obeisance at the Tirupati temple in Andhra Pradesh. Such is the relationship between religion and State that even the Supreme Court ordered Ram temple in Ayodhya to be built by a government-appointed trust.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The hijab controversy needs to be taken in context of other events such as bigoted attacks by Hindus on Muslims, attacks on Christians over alleged conversions of Hindus, https://cruxnow.com/church-in-asia/2021/12/hindu-nationalists-attack-catholic-school-in-india for example.

Here's a good review of how India really functions as a religious state that acts according to

So, no one is perturbed when government functions start with Ganesh vandana or Saraswati vandana and the lighting of auspicious lamps. This has become a normative idea. Nobody questions when a government functionary breaks a coconut while inaugurating a flyover or an airport or even commissioning a frigate or a warship. It’s a normal thing for a government-run education to have an idol of Saraswati at its gate (Indian Institute of Mass Communication in Delhi has one). Nobody bothers about why Hindi language courses are laden with Hindu religious texts. It has been a practice that whenever the Indian Space Research Organisation launches a satellite, its chief pays obeisance at the Tirupati temple in Andhra Pradesh. Such is the relationship between religion and State that even the Supreme Court ordered Ram temple in Ayodhya to be built by a government-appointed trust.

We have all kinds of things going on with a population of 1.4 billion. There are Muslim and Christian bigots murdering Hindus too. If you want I can provide you the links.

1. Government or school functions do not start with Ganesha or Saraswati vandana, they start with the National Anthem or National song (Jana Gana Mana, Vande Mataram, or another popular song by Muhammad Iqbal, the National Poet of Pakistan, in his secular days, "Sare jahan se accha Hindostan Hamara (Our India is the best in the world). Iqbal later became a Muslim bigot. If private schools do that, the government is not responsible.
2. Why did CERN put a 'Nataraja' statue? Do they endorse Hinduism? Why did the Indonesia gift a beautiful Saraswati statue to US? Are they endorsing Hinduism? Why does Bangkok Airport have a 'Sagar Manthan' sculpture? Are they endorsing Hinduism? Similarly in India too, Saraswati stands for arts and knowledge. Even Muslim musicians and singers in India bow to it. Some things go beyond religion. That is why, the Saraswati statue at IIMC, Delhi; and the Kubera statue (the Ugly Treasurer of Gods in Hindu mythology, and his wife), at Reserve Bank of India.
3. Again lighting a lamp and breaking a coconut goes beyond religions. It is a cultural act.
4. Thanks giving is a personal thing. What is wrong if the Chief of ISRO goes to pay homage at the Tirupati temple?
5. Supreme Court ordered the government to institute a Trust to avoid swindling of public money. For the same reason we have 'Wakf' (Muslim Charity) Trust.
6. Lastly, some of these reactions are because of Hinduism being ignored and Muslims and Christians being appeased for votes during the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty rule for 55 years. One of these days, the government is likely to introduce a 'uniform civil code' (it is mandated in the Indian Constitution and recommended by the Supreme Court of India) to do away with all religious rules which go against gender equality.

 

[sayak83]

The girl (Muslim) is clad in black. She carefully parks her moped. As she enters her school she is ambushed. A group of boys (Hindu) clad in saffron scarfs object to her hijab. Principal and Teachers run. They carefully escort her inside. Millions watched on mobile/TV screens worldwide. Some Indian schools are closed for 2 weeks. January is the coolest month in India. Temperatures need to cool further.

In Afghanistan the politicians do not want girls to have an education. They also do want them to wear the hijab. Some Indian schools want the girls to have an education. They also do not want hijabs. This on grounds that it is not part of official school uniform. Do this and some parents will keep some girls from school. Schools are there to educate not dictate.

On the face of it there should be no problem or need for discussion. Make the Hijab (like turbans are) part of the school uniform. That is would allow the girls to continue with their schooling. Pupils just want to learn. Teachers just want to teach. Parents want both to get on with the job. Education is no longer education. It is an exam factory hothouse. In India students oft have additional tuition and study till midnight. Student life is painful enough as it is.

The Hindu religion comprised 82% of population. Muslim 14%. Hinduism relies heavily on scriptures. Vedas and Upanishads. Dharma sets for cosmic law. It sets for correct behaviour. Theoretically India is secular. Practically it is religious. This is largely thanks to the genius of Mr. Modi. He has ushered in modern reforms and it platforms. He enjoys genuine popularity. He should. His efforts help catapult India into approaching Superpower status. His BJP party has a Hindu religious base. A tiny minority of his acolytes and supporters want to advance religious mission creep. This a Trojan horse. Really its calculated disguise to accumulate money and power. All the time innocently waving their hands. Claiming they are doing in the name of faith. Their tactics to accuse other faiths of press ganging converts. They (and everyone else) knows that view is really a load of rubbish.

It will be difficult for Mr. Modi. Ideally he should discipline religious hardliners who fall into the too easy trap of extremism. They are goondas (thugs). The dilemma is he needs to keep them on side. Marrying ethical and spiritual practice with practical politics may not be possible, China easily overtakes India on the economic front. In China citizens faithfully follow state orders and deliver economic miracles. Indians do not. India’s miracle is in its much vaunted brand label “The world’s largest democracy”.

Indian courts will pass judgement this week.
Common sense should prevail. It may not. Elections are around the corner. Namaste.

I agree that college students should have the right to wear their religious garments to college if they want to and colleges or the state have no business determining uniforms to college students. What the courts decide is another matter, on such matters the courts (in every country) often make judgements on narrow points on law or pre-existing biases rather than on general principles.
Meanwhile it is good way to segment votes along religious lines which is the intention I am certain.

 

[sayak83]

The girl (Muslim) is clad in black. She carefully parks her moped. As she enters her school she is ambushed. A group of boys (Hindu) clad in saffron scarfs object to her hijab. Principal and Teachers run. They carefully escort her inside. Millions watched on mobile/TV screens worldwide. Some Indian schools are closed for 2 weeks. January is the coolest month in India. Temperatures need to cool further.

In Afghanistan the politicians do not want girls to have an education. They also do want them to wear the hijab. Some Indian schools want the girls to have an education. They also do not want hijabs. This on grounds that it is not part of official school uniform. Do this and some parents will keep some girls from school. Schools are there to educate not dictate.

On the face of it there should be no problem or need for discussion. Make the Hijab (like turbans are) part of the school uniform. That is would allow the girls to continue with their schooling. Pupils just want to learn. Teachers just want to teach. Parents want both to get on with the job. Education is no longer education. It is an exam factory hothouse. In India students oft have additional tuition and study till midnight. Student life is painful enough as it is.

The Hindu religion comprised 82% of population. Muslim 14%. Hinduism relies heavily on scriptures. Vedas and Upanishads. Dharma sets for cosmic law. It sets for correct behaviour. Theoretically India is secular. Practically it is religious. This is largely thanks to the genius of Mr. Modi. He has ushered in modern reforms and it platforms. He enjoys genuine popularity. He should. His efforts help catapult India into approaching Superpower status. His BJP party has a Hindu religious base. A tiny minority of his acolytes and supporters want to advance religious mission creep. This a Trojan horse. Really its calculated disguise to accumulate money and power. All the time innocently waving their hands. Claiming they are doing in the name of faith. Their tactics to accuse other faiths of press ganging converts. They (and everyone else) knows that view is really a load of rubbish.

It will be difficult for Mr. Modi. Ideally he should discipline religious hardliners who fall into the too easy trap of extremism. They are goondas (thugs). The dilemma is he needs to keep them on side. Marrying ethical and spiritual practice with practical politics may not be possible, China easily overtakes India on the economic front. In China citizens faithfully follow state orders and deliver economic miracles. Indians do not. India’s miracle is in its much vaunted brand label “The world’s largest democracy”.

Indian courts will pass judgement this week.
Common sense should prevail. It may not. Elections are around the corner. Namaste.

I agree that college students should have the right to wear their religious garments to college if they want to and colleges or the state have no business determining uniforms to college students. What the courts decide is another matter, on such matters the courts (in every country) often make judgements on narrow points on law or pre-existing biases rather than on general principles.
Meanwhile it is good way to segment votes along religious lines which is the intention I am certain.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Would you like students to come to the school/college wearing just the underwear, or even that is too much of regulation?
There have to be rules, otherwise people take undue advantage of their freedoms.

 

[sayak83]

Would you like students to come to the school/college wearing just the underwear, or even that is too much of regulation?
There have to be rules, otherwise people take undue advantage of their freedoms.

No. There are no dress codes in many countries. There are no problems. If some dressed cause discomfort to others, they can raise a complaint and that can be judged by the college on a case by case basis by the college. India (like many countries in this region) puts too many restrictions on personal choice due to utterly illogical reason like "public sentiment". Unless action of a person X cause some sort of suffering or harm (physical or mental) to person Y, person Y has no business trying to regulate the actions of that person X.

 

[Aupmanyav]

I do not think 'public sentiments' are illogical. There are reasons behind it. Environment and education differ and so do law and order regulations. A cartoon of Muhammad is objectionable in India and the perpetrators may face jail sentence. The Indian Constitution, article 19 or 25, I do not remember which, prohibits it. Do not apply Western standards to India.

 

[sayak83]

I do not think 'public sentiments' are illogical. There are reasons behind it. Environment and education differ and so do law and order regulations. A cartoon of Muhammad is objectionable in India and the perpetrators may face jail sentence. The Indian Constitution, article 19 or 25, I do not remember which, prohibits it. Do not apply Western standards to India.

Ethics is ethics, there is no west or east. I do not believe in moral relativism. Context matters, but that is it.

 

[Kooky]

4. Thanks giving is a personal thing. What is wrong if the Chief of ISRO goes to pay homage at the Tirupati temple?

Would you support them if they were publically celebrating Ramadan and Eid al-Fitr instead?

 

[Kooky]

Meanwhile it is good way to segment votes along religious lines which is the intention I am certain.

Of course, all conservative and right-wing parties thrive on these kinds of cultural "wedge issues".
Splitting society in this way serves to mask their true intent, which is to secure wealth and power for a privileged elite, and to undermine the political unity of the working class.

Indian workers are already gaining power and consciousness with organized general strikes with which they can push their demands onto the capitalists and their auxiliary government. It should be no surprise if the government reacts by doing its best to undermine worker solidarity and split the working class into different ethnic and religious factions.

This has already worked marvellously in the West by pitting religion against religion - if anything this tactic may work even better in India, with its century-long history of mutual religious resentment.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ethics is ethics, there is no west or east. I do not believe in moral relativism. Context matters, but that is it.

Ethics depend on the society. You would not marry your first cousin. In Pakistan, it is the norm.

 

[sayak83]

Ethics depend on the society. You would not marry your first cousin. In Pakistan, it is the norm.

No that is just laws. Ethics is universal and different from law.
For example it may have been legal to have slaves a few hundred years ago, but it is unethical always and everywhere. The basic point of reform is to get laws to conform more and more to universal ethical principles.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Would you support them if they were publically celebrating Ramadan and Eid al-Fitr instead?

Had the Muslims not descended in a separatist pan-islamic mode, that is what India might have been doing today. You would probably not know, but our elders talk of times when Hindu children used to get Eid gifts from the Muslim friends of their family and Muslim children from the Hindu friends of their family. There are a whole lot of places where Hindu and Muslims worship together. Where Muslims take care of Hindu temples and Hindus take care of mosques. Temples built by Muslims and mosques built by Hindus. Hindu families that take out Muharram Tazias of their own, and Muslims families raising Hindu children and Hindus raising Muslim children and not interfering in their faith. If you go to a Hindu pilgrimage site, it may be necessary to visit a mosque first (Sabarimala and Vavar Mosque), and in Delhi, the festival of flowers (Phool walon ki sair) It is not as uncommon as you think. It is not easy to understand India.

"Amidst all this merrymaking with great pomp and show, a chadar made of flowers was offered at the Dargah of Khwaja Bakhtiar Kaki. The Mughal king was secular minded and under his orders floral offering in the shape of a floral pankha was offered at the famous Yogmaya Temple which is also in Mehrauli." Phool Walon Ki Sair - Wikipedia

Hindu Sabarimala devotees at Vavur mosque; Hindu Goddess and mosque together at 'Phool walon ki sair' (Festival of Flower sellers).

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is absolutely ethical to marry a first cousin among Muslims. Slavery was not unethical. YHWH and Allah made laws about slavery. Allah said that one can use a female slave to satisfy sex if the person rightly owns her (.. slaves that you hold in your right hand.. or something like that). You had the God-given right.

 

[sayak83]

It is absolutely ethical to marry a first cousin among Muslims. Slavery was not unethical. YHWH and Allah made laws about slavery. Allah said that one can use a female slave to satisfy sex if the person owned her (.. that you hold in your right hand.. or something like that). You had the God-given right.

Ethics does not come from religious texts and lawbooks. It comes from a joint use of rationality, empathy and evidence regarding how one can create a society of flourishing individuals.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ethics does not come from religious texts and lawbooks.

Yeah, it does not. It is wrong to say that without religion, there would not have been any morality or ethics. They have only plagiarized these things. I have always maintained that it comes from the society. That is why the measures of ethics and morality are different in different societies. Thankfully, Hindu laws came from fallible humans just like us and valid for their own times (Manu, Parashara, etc.). Not from any Allah or God, or through a messenger.

 

[Kooky]

Ethics depend on the society. You would not marry your first cousin. In Pakistan, it is the norm.

It is legal in most European countries to marry one's first cousin; many of them do not even discriminate based on said cousin's gender. I suppose that means Indian ethics are intrinsically apart from Western ones?

 

[Kooky]

Had the Muslims not descended in a separatist pan-islamic mode, that is what India might have been doing today.

With Indian nationalism essentially developing into Hindu nationalism, I see very little chance of Indian religious minorities in the early 20th century not demanding their own space; and the logic of early 20th century nationalism demanded a single state for every nation.

I suppose one cannot fault Hindu right-wingers clinging to such notions of ethnostates, when so many of their Western comrades in the Nationalist Internationale are doing the same. It's not like they invented bigotry and purism centered around religion, or even modern Cultural Islamophobia.