Near Death experiences and the scientific method.

[tas8831]

Why don't some people catch COVID, others get a mild case and some die. Seems awfully arbitrary.

Wow, sure, communicable diseases are exactly like supposed near death experiences. Great point...

The point is that science does not explain everything related to a phenomenon initially in a large number of cases.

Wait... Is that your point? You think we don't know why not everyone gets a communicable disease and why those that do have different experiences?
That is a really ridiculous take.

The discrepancy is real and investigation is warranted.

Nope.

Claims are nothing.

They sure aren't. And then you present this:

[Evidence that suggest the reality of reincarnation] - PubMed

Worldwide, children can be found who reported that they have memories of a previous life. More than 2,500 cases have been studied and their specifications have been published and preserved in the archives of the Division of Perceptual Studies at the University of Virginia (United States). ... In many cases, the revelations of the children have been verified and have corresponded to a particular individual, already dead. A good number of these children have marks and birth defects corresponding to wounds on the body of his previous personality. Many have behaviors related to their claims to their former life: phobias, philias, and attachments. Others seem to recognize people and places of his supposed previous life, and some of their assertions have been made under controlled conditions. The hypothesis of reincarnation is controversial. We can never say that it does not occur, or will obtain conclusive evidence that it happens. The cases that have been described so far, isolated or combined, do not provide irrefutable proof of reincarnation, but they supply evidence that suggest its reality.

Can you send me a PDF of the entire article in English? I am sure you have read it and can vouch for it, but I am skeptical.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don't do belief, why are you so fixated on the idea that belief is somehow important when it comes to trying to understand reality?

Sorry, but it appears that all you "do" is belief.

Knowledge is demonstrable. If you actually know what you claim to know then you should be able to support your claims. Handwaving and circular reasoning on your part tell us that all you have is mere belief.

 

[tas8831]

Huh, I'm confused. Not that it matters, but the quote I was referring to was intended to cast skeptical doubt on Sabom's ability to be objective.

I guess you are confused. The quote I offered was from a review of his book that was SUPPORTIVE of it , but referred to Sabom's evangelicals beliefs. IOW - he is witnessing.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So what claim is it specifically that you believe I am making that you believe is a belief?

You have demonstrated that your supposed event is just a belief.

 

[tas8831]

Near Death Experiences are natural occurrences. They happen because we humans are spiritual first and human second. The evidence for this is in hundreds of NDEs that have been verified by surgeons and medical personal present at the time it happens. It's OK with me if others believe or not. I had the experience myself and know for me there is no doubt.

Feh... I don't believe it.

 

[tas8831]

Please watch the video. The doctor clearly states what happened.

Dr. Eben Alexander claimed to have had a NDE. He claimed to have screamed out for God to help him while in the ER. He had been intubated upon entering the ER, and thus could not have screamed at all.
Just because a Doctor with an agenda says something does not mean that what the doctor is claiming is accurate, real, or believable.
Plus the video does not seem to exist.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is your belief, reality can only be realized by spiritual understanding.

And that's your belief.
So now what?

 

[tas8831]

Jim B. Tucker

https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual...formity-and-Children-s-Past-Life-Memories.pdf

Its funny - looking at his pubs, the reincarnation ones all appear in hack journals, while his legitimate ones are in, well, real journals:


Measurement of WZ and ZZ production in pp collisions at s = 8 TeV in final states with b …
S Chatrchyan, V Khachatryan, AM Sirunyan, A Tumasyan, W Adam, ...
The European Physical Journal C 74 (8), 1-22

but:

A scale to measure the strength of children’s claims of previous lives: Methodology and initial findings
JB Tucker
Journal of Scientific Exploration 14 (4), 571-581

"The JSE, while presented as neutral and objective, appears to hold a hidden agenda. They seem to be interested in promoting fringe topics as real mysteries and they tend to ignore most evidence to the contrary. They publish "scholarly" articles promoting the reality of dowsing, neo-astrology, ESP, and psychokinesis. Most of the prominent and active members are strong believers in the reality of such phenomena."

 

[tas8831]

Perhaps this is another case of someone reading a headline and then assuming the content. I see it regularly with people looking to confirm their existing position rather than looking to form a position based on evidence.

Indeed, a common occurrence among the fringers.

 

[tas8831]

You ignored what I've written and attacked me for something I did not claim.

To repeat it once again in simpler terms:

I rely on the verified science published peer reviewed journals

some of which is under controlled conditions

that there is something

for which reincarnation is a valid hypothesis.

What was under "controlled conditions" in the things you've linked?

The Tucker paper just culled stories from a database. How was that "under controlled conditions"?

 

[tas8831]

If you have to alternatives and you don’t present good reasons for accepting one over the other, then giving each a 50% seems fair...
Because all the evidence is rejected by default....
No my argument is

- Magic is possible (given that nobody has proven magic to be impossible)

- We made an observation that would be explained by magic and cant be explained by natural mechanisms

- Therefore magic is the best alternative.
...

Given enough evience One could argue that a man had an OBE even if you can’t answer how did it happened

Peter Popoff
Evangelical faith healer televangelist.
Used to go to "random" people in his audience, accurately 'diagnose' them, then claim that they are healed.
James Randi spied on him, found that he was receiving radio information about the people in the audience that his partner (I think it was his wife) had gleaned from them prior to his show.
He was exposed, and banished for a time. But now, he is back, still 'healing' people. Because people want to be 'healed' by someone spewing bible verses.
In addition - several of the people that had been 'healed' were interviewed later and come to find out.... not actually healed! Imagine that.

 

[Lekatt]

Dr. Eben Alexander claimed to have had a NDE. He claimed to have screamed out for God to help him while in the ER. He had been intubated upon entering the ER, and thus could not have screamed at all.
Just because a Doctor with an agenda says something does not mean that what the doctor is claiming is accurate, real, or believable.
Plus the video does not seem to exist.

The original video was posted a few pages back, there has been a lot of activity here, I will post another video that shows the same evidence. There are dozens of these videos on YouTube showing evidence of our spiritual existence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

The original video was posted a few pages back, there has been a lot of activity here, I will post another video that shows the same evidence. There are dozens of these videos on YouTube showing evidence of our spiritual existence.

You have yet to explain how NDEs are evidence of "spirits," the "spiritual world," or "spiritual existence."
And you have yet to define/explain what "spirits," the "spiritual world" or "spiritual existence" even are.

 

[Lekatt]

When I had my experience I was aware I was out of my body, awake, and aware or my surroundings. Then a spirit beside me asked if I wanted to go back in my body or go on. I was asked if I wanted to live or die. I chose life. When I returned to my body an electric like energy started to vibrate through my body. I knew it was repairing damage to my heart. The energy lasted about 15 minutes and my body quit vibrating. That was the beginning of a lifetime of spiritual events that continue today. It was an Awakening to a new world of spirit that I did not know existed. I know it is difficult to believe for those who have not had the experience. I would later pen a poem about wakening to spirit that was given me.

Awakening

Gloomy clouds of desperation
billow through a bungled past.
Failed probabilities mangled
from a question left unasked.

Guilt straddles the back of heroes,
distraught over what might have been.
Anxiety contorts the soul,
what was, will never be again.

Hiding deep within the darkness,
cloaked with eons of denial.
A glimmer of serenity
whispers, madness is not final.

The grim prevailing ambiance
is not what it appears to be,
within it exists wisdom that
validates immortality.

What seems solid is but vapor
swirling about an Honesty.
A light long dimmed by fearfulness
and beaded with apostasy.

Press bravely through the inner mist.
Reclaim a wisdom known before.
Light of unconditional love,
resides within you ever more.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When I had my experience I was aware I was out of my body, awake, and aware or my surroundings. Then a spirit beside me asked if I wanted to go back in my body or go on. I was asked if I wanted to live or die. I chose life. When I returned to my body an electric like energy started to vibrate through my body. I knew it was repairing damage to my heart. The energy lasted about 15 minutes and my body quit vibrating. That was the beginning of a lifetime of spiritual events that continue today. It was an Awakening to a new world of spirit that I did not know existed. I know it is difficult to believe for those who have not had the experience. I would later pen a poem about wakening to spirit that was given me.

Awakening

Gloomy clouds of desperation
billow through a bungled past.
Failed probabilities mangled
from a question left unasked.

Guilt straddles the back of heroes,
distraught over what might have been.
Anxiety contorts the soul,
what was, will never be again.

Hiding deep within the darkness,
cloaked with eons of denial.
A glimmer of serenity
whispers, madness is not final.

The grim prevailing ambiance
is not what it appears to be,
within it exists wisdom that
validates immortality.

What seems solid is but vapor
swirling about an Honesty.
A light long dimmed by fearfulness
and beaded with apostasy.

Press bravely through the inner mist.
Reclaim a wisdom known before.
Light of unconditional love,
resides within you ever more.

So you had a physical experience happen to you, and you've just attributed it to spirits and spirit worlds, because ....?
What reason does anyone have to believe you weren't just having a dream or a bout of sleep paralysis?

And then there's the pesky fact that some people, like my grandfather, died on the operating table and experiences absolutely nothing like this. He said it was just like he was sleeping.
I have to ask again because you don't seem to want to answer ... What about those people? How do you account for their experiences?

 

[Lekatt]

You have yet to explain how NDEs are evidence of "spirits," the "spiritual world," or "spiritual existence."
And you have yet to define/explain what "spirits," the "spiritual world" or "spiritual existence" even are.

Well it is assumed that what observes while the body is dead is the spirit. Now you can call it the soul, the vitality, the spirit, of any other name you choose. Remember a rose by any other name smells as sweet. It means that we humans are greater than our bodies and will live after the body is dead. Simple assumption my friend.

 

[Lekatt]

So you had a physical experience happen to you, and you've just attributed it to spirits and spirit worlds, because ....?
What reason does anyone have to believe you weren't just having a dream or a bout of sleep paralysis?

And then there's the pesky fact that some people, like my grandfather, died on the operating table and experiences absolutely nothing like this. He said it was just like he was sleeping.
I have to ask again because you don't seem to want to answer ... What about those people? How do you account for their experiences?

I said I was out of my body. When you are out of body you are out of the physical. No one can see or hear you when you are out of your body. That is not a physical experience.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well it is assumed that what observes while the body is dead is the spirit. Now you can call it the soul, the vitality, the spirit, of any other name you choose. Remember a rose by any other name smells as sweet. It means that we humans are greater than our bodies and will live after the body is dead. Simple assumption my friend.

Well, I'm not calling it anything. You are calling it "spirit."
I'm wondering how you've determined what spirits and spiritual worlds are, that they exist and that NDEs are evidence that "humans are greater than our bodies and will live after the body is dead?"

 

[SkepticThinker]

I said I was out of my body. When you are out of body you are out of the physical. No one can see or hear you when you are out of your body. That is not a physical experience.

Can you demonstrate that you were actually out of your body instead of just feeling like you were out of your body?

 

[George-ananda]

I guess you are confused. The quote I offered was from a review of his book that was SUPPORTIVE of it , but referred to Sabom's evangelicals beliefs. IOW - he is witnessing.

To claim 'he is witnessing' is not a supportive point even if the overall tone of the review is supportive.

And the NDE as presented by people like Sabom is not something that supports any narrow religious view so the point doesn't seem to be important.