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Science Babble vs Truth

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
It is important to note that many examinations of the genetics and molecular biology in insect taxa support much of the previous taxonomy based on morphological data. There have been changes that have resulted in the use of genetic and molecular data, but I think it surprised a lot of people to find how stable taxonomies based on insect morphology were. I don't know if this is true for animals outside of arthropods or with plants, but it would not surprise me.
Idd, the way all this data lines up is quite astonishing.

How the obtained family trees from genetics match the trees obtained from comparative anatomy (of both extant as well as extinct species).
Or when geology and geological history is taken into account and looking at the geographic distribution of extant and extinct species... how it all fits together like a multi-dimensional puzzle.

Evolution and geology combined actually explain why you only find kangaroo's and koala's in Australia and not in the america's or asia.
Creationist can only say "Noah dropped them off there I guess". :D
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yeah, that’s sad. Isn’t it? Even the explanation for the formation of the Earth. Completely laughable!
Gravity explains how it and the other planets are held in place, but there’s no believable mechanism for how they originated and began than orbits.

Very sad!
Actually there is. It is called the Nebular Hypothesis:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebular_hypothesis

You should still be asking questions. Not making absolute statements that are easily refuted.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No it isn’t. There is purpose in its lengthy route. Other functions were discovered. And there may even be more that will be found.
You have it backwards as usual. New uses arose because it existed. That does not mean that it was designed that way or that it is good design. Evolution is a great repurposer. If finds new uses for existing structures all of the time.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
He put me on ignore too, apparently. I suppose it helps not to muddy his waters with people that know facts and evidence too well. Just a guess. Personally, I would want to discuss this with people trained in biology. I know. Weird right.
It is what they do. Easier to maintain their fantasy view of their own intellectual capabilities.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Wow, great YouTube vid (the last one) on the laryngeal nerve!
Thank you for posting it, nPeace!

Some, like Dawkins, are so intent on attacking Design, they end up shooting themselves in the foot! Gotta love when genuine science supports Intelligent Design! Trying to use science to debunk Design, always results in faulty conclusions based on guess work. Not the complete facts.

1 John 5:19 & Revelation 12:9 are so manifest!
That video is just evidence that creationists are both lacking in knowledge and easily fooled by deliberate ,misrepresentation.
At 2:25 the presenter claims that evolutionary developments "provide no benefit to the organism". This is utter nonsense. No evolutionary biologist makes that claim. Take a whale's flipper. Do you really think that marine biologists think that they "provide no benefit to the organism"?
He then laughably claims that because the RLN has evolved to serve other (minor, secondary) functions, it must have been designed to follow that route and there is no possible design that could have done the job better. This is also obvious nonsense. Those secondary functions would be better served by nerves routed directly to the organ from the brain rather than having the RLN take a massive and unnecessary detour.
If you want to build roads from London to Reading and to Leeds, you wouldn't make the road to Reading go via Leeds. You could build two separate roads. Better design, more efficient, and safer. However, if the poor design was actually built, people could still get to Reading, just by a very stupid route.
The argument made by the man in the video (I assume he is a renowned evolutionary biologist rather than a religious apologist) is just a straw man. The claim has never been that the RLN only has one function, so pointing out that it has other functions is meaningless.

Gotta love how random religionists with no qualifications in evolutionary biology are happy to call thousands of evolutionary biologists and millions of man-hours of research wrong, simply because their faith requires it.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
No it isn’t. There is purpose in its lengthy route. Other functions were discovered. And there may even be more that will be found.
There is a reason for its lengthy route, but it does not show purpose, unless it was to waste resources. A purpose would have been direct routes for all those functions with the least travel and use of resources.

You are letting your bias to support your doctrinal beliefs cloud your judgement to allow you to accept poor explanations that are supportive of that bias.
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Yeah, that’s sad. Isn’t it? Even the explanation for the formation of the Earth. Completely laughable!
The creationist version certainly is laughable, and demonstrably wrong.

Gravity explains how it and the other planets are held in place, but there’s no believable mechanism for how they originated and began than orbits.

Very sad!
What? You think we don't have a workable explanation for the formation of the solar system? :tearsofjoy:
Seriously though, if you are going to argue against something, probably a good idea to find out what that something actually is.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Yeah, that’s sad. Isn’t it? Even the explanation for the formation of the Earth. Completely laughable!
Gravity explains how it and the other planets are held in place, but there’s no believable mechanism for how they originated and began than orbits.

Very sad!
It is sad, but not the way you are implying it.

Why are you jumping to the formation of the earth and local cosmology, when the discussion has been about biology? Are you equating what we know about biology with what we do not know about the origin of the solar system and declaring that what we know about biology is wrong.

There is no objective evidence for intelligent design or creation. Theologians have been trying to find it for centuries and admit they have failed to show evidence for God or creation. Now, even scientists admit that what they thought (what their bias wanted to be) was evidence of intelligent design isn't.

How can you show me that your particular doctrine of the Bible and Christianity is the correct one and that I and the other 1.9 billion Christians are all wrong? What objective evidence do you have? I know of none and I look with an open mind.

I was never told or commanded to sign some agreement that I could not conclude God or a designer if the evidence lead to that as an answer. There just simply isn't the physical evidence to support the conclusion. Saying that scientists are part of some conspiracy to thwart God is false.

I find it sad to see Christians waste their time and their Spirits on such folly. I have never seen anything that assures me that God will condemn me for using the gifts He gave me to better understand the natural world. He will if I deny it out of bias or outright lie about what I have learned. That is my opinion.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
The God of Abraham and Jesus Christ are the central figures of a belief system. The Bible is the story of that belief system. Doctrine is the way we interpret and the rules followed in exercising that belief.

When doctrine and the evidence of the natural world do not mesh, then clearly we do not fully understand Scripture and some doctrines demanding how we should understand belief and reality are wrong.
 
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KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
No it isn’t. There is purpose in its lengthy route. Other functions were discovered. And there may even be more that will be found.
If the "purpose" of the RLN is to transmit signals from those organs to and from the brain, then the design is a poor way to fulfil that purpose. A "designer" would have used a better system.

So people in Northampton can use the road from London to Reading via Leeds to get to London or Reading, but it's still a stupid way to get from London to Reading.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
Idd, the way all this data lines up is quite astonishing.

How the obtained family trees from genetics match the trees obtained from comparative anatomy (of both extant as well as extinct species).
Or when geology and geological history is taken into account and looking at the geographic distribution of extant and extinct species... how it all fits together like a multi-dimensional puzzle.

Evolution and geology combined actually explain why you only find kangaroo's and koala's in Australia and not in the america's or asia.
Creationist can only say "Noah dropped them off there I guess". :D
I agree. Different disciplines come to the same destination naturally and in support of each other. That is astonishing to me too.

It is a far, far better explanation than koalas rode in the kangaroo pouches while both were shot at Australia as living projectiles.
 

Dan From Smithville

What we've got here is failure to communicate.
Staff member
Premium Member
They’re in the videos, @nPeace posted.
The first two videos were simply an explanation of the anatomy and that the length and route stem from development, so they really didn't support the claim of design. The third was a poorly constructed opinion piece that merely continues the claim of design without supporting it.

Didn't the logical fallacies in that third video bother you? They bothered me.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Ahh ok np :)

Just from google, which seem to work fine with me:

1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
I saw a similar definition.
I thought you might use it, but I was not sure.
I was thinking the one they had before, was the one persons refered to happily - belief without evidence..

Looking at both those definitions, it's so easy to see the difference between them and faith mentioned in the Bible.
Firstly, number 1 has no flesh. It's bare bones and broad in scope.
For example, many people, including you, have conference in science. So according to that definition, all of you have faith in science.
You also have faith in the explanations given for what you believe about scientific theories.

Secondly, number 2 has been so cleverly twisted to degrade the true meaning, I am always amused at how twisted this worlds thinking is.
Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
Spiritual conviction? What's that?
One dictionary says spiritual apprehension (anxiety or fear that something bad or unpleasant will happen).

As far as I can tell, conviction means the same thing that they described faith to mean. So that's messed up.

The Bible's definition of faith, can literally be read... Faith is the title deed of what is hoped for.
It's having the assurance.... a firm foundation or support - having evidence that demonstrates a reality.
So faith - as described in the Bible, is not a mere belief in something without warrant.
The Bible says the demons believe, but they do not have faith. James 2.

Are you still seeing no difference? Please surprise me and say yes. ;)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
First off, you were the one who indicated the superiority of “biblical truth” over sciences. You have also indicated that Bible being more accurate in both history department and science department.

The Bible is only collection of books of belief by people (Jews and then Christians) based on their respective traditions, and accepted through faith, and faith alone.

The Bible was never about historical accuracy or scientific accuracy, that just you and other creationists interpretations of the Bible.

Sciences, particularly physical sciences and natural sciences, developed explanatory and predictive models, based on preliminary observations (evidence) and later more observations through testings (more evidence).

No scientific theory start out with no evidence whatsoever ever, like pure imagination. There are always evidence, before someone start writing the hypothesis, hence preliminary evidence/observation. The preliminary evidence is the starting point that provide ideas to start a hypothesis, which is to explain the phenomena being observed.

A scientific theory is only true and accepted as science, when it has been tested repeatedly (Scientific Method) and all the information (explanation, predictions and evidence-based data) are reviewed by other scientists (Peer Review).

I have never said that scientific theory cannot be changed or cannot be replaced. Of course, you can challenge, change or replaced already accepted theory, sciences allow for it to happen, but any new or alternative model must be supported by new tests or better observable evidence, because scientific theories are not written in stone.

You are still misunderstanding what sciences do and how sciences work.

A scientific theory is the current best explanation science have so far. It allow for modifications of current theories or replace current theories with alternative theories, but only if there are EVIDENCE (hence new information) to support such changes or replacements.

It is what science called progress.

Your ignorance is simply staggering, if you think science have to be static, unchanging.

Take this for example:



To give you example of changing

Back in mid-10th century, was the first recorded discovery of Andromeda, by Muslim astronomer, I don’t remember his name, he observed and describe the feature of Andromeda, all without telescopes.

After the telescope was developed in early 17th century, in the18th century, a French astronomer named Charles Messier have classified Andromeda as a “nebula” located within, not a “galaxy”. Other galaxies were also mis-classified as nebulae.

Between Galileo and before 1919, every astronomers assumed that there was not one galaxy in the universe was the Milky Way.

In 1919, a new and more larger (the largest at that time) and powerful telescope - the Hooker Telescope - was constructed, and Edwin Hubble discovered that all those nebulae including Andromeda and Triangulum weren’t nebulae, but separate galaxies.

Hubble didn’t just discover there were more than one galaxy, but the universe were filled with galaxies, and the universe is even larger than any astronomer (before 1919) ever imagined.

And throughout the rest of the 20th century and the 21st century, new technology enabled scientists and engineers to build even more powerful telescopes than the Hooker Telescope. Radio astronomy, red-shift astronomy, space telescopes, all providing new evidence, and therefore new information about the Andromeda Galaxy and other galaxies that are even more distant than Andromeda.

The points in my example of Andromeda, is that as better technology, it can change what we know and even replaced scientific theory.

In my example, the notion that Andromeda, Triangulum and other objects were nebulae, were replaced by new theory that they are galaxies, all because better technology that provide better observations of the evidence.

What do you think scientists should do? Not learn from new evidence? Not progress forward?

Sciences aren’t fixed, especially when new evidence provide new information. Science must change when new evidence are discovered, or else it would be replaced by alternative evidence.

As to the theory of evolution that you have been trying to get rid of, you have not offer any better alternative. Evolution did change, as biologists were able to implement genetics into evolution, as well as discovering other mechanisms other than Natural Selection (eg genetic drift, mutations, etc). Also better understanding of speciation, when biologists discovered new method for testings - DNA testing. All these strength the theory of evolution, and it isn’t a mess as you have claimed in your earlier replies.

The only mess I see, are coming from Creationism and Intelligent Design. No evidence were found in either, just biblical interpretations and biblical apology.

All you have done, is try to redefine what faith and evidence mean. You have even tried to pathetically equate faith with evidence, hence deliberately try to dishonestly distort both words to suit your biblical truth.

The irony of your OP that you brought up biblical truth, but what many of your replies have shown, you were never honest with us, nor to yourself.
This is quite a long bit of babbling... and still you haven't addressed the point.
The point is, evidence that is claimed to be in support of an idea, is not and never was in support of that idea, when it is discovered to be so.
Finding new evidence or not, is irrelevant to that fact.
All it demonstrates is that people are willing to claim something is true, on little or no evidence at all. Just ideas they conjecture and suppose.
That's the same thing those persons accuse religious people of.

The Bible was not written as a science book. Yet where it touches on science, it is in harmony with scientific discoveries.
However, the Bible is a historical record. It was written as such.
One who reads the Bible with their eyes and mind opened, can see that.
God - the author, on countless occasions, told his people to write a record for their offspring, and future generations to come.
This is found from Genesis to Revelation.
To put all those scripture here would take me more than a few hours..
I managed to get some done before. Here you go.

The historical record of God's dealings was recorded to serve as examples, reveal truths, and build faith.
(Romans 15:4) For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Looking at both those definitions, it's so easy to see the difference between them and faith mentioned in the Bible.
Firstly, number 1 has no flesh. It's bare bones and broad in scope.
For example, many people, including you, have conference in science. So according to that definition, all of you have faith in science.
You also have faith in the explanations given for what you believe about scientific theories.
No, not exactly. I will agree that the definitions is a bit vague in my opinion, but I do think they cover it fine enough.

1. Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

But the reason is that, even though I might have complete trust or confidence in someone or something, doesn't mean that it is true or correct. I can be completely confident in me being able to walk a rope 30 feet above the ground without falling. However that doesn't mean that I can actually do it, simply that I believe I can.

That is not really how science works, for it to be true, using the same example, despite being a bit weird. we would say that its true if I actually did walk the rope and could keep repeat doing it. Meaning that I can demonstrate my ability to do it.

We don't simply trust science, they have to demonstrate that it is actually true.

2. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

I don't think this is wrong as this part obviously covers the religious aspect of faith. And its difficult to deny that we simply do not have proof of God and the supernatural.

In regards to the bible and the demons as you quoted:
The Bible says the demons believe, but they do not have faith.

I don't see anything wrong with this in regards to the definition, obviously the demons believe that God exist, but have no trust/confident (faith) in God.

So im sorry, I still don't see what that other faith is suppose to be?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Wow, great YouTube vid (the last one) on the laryngeal nerve!
Thank you for posting it, nPeace!

Some, like Dawkins, are so intent on attacking Design, they end up shooting themselves in the foot! Gotta love when genuine science supports Intelligent Design! Trying to use science to debunk Design, always results in faulty conclusions based on guess work. Not the complete facts.

1 John 5:19 & Revelation 12:9 are so manifest!
Did you read the one that claimed the earth is not suspended. It's moving?
I have to share that with the brothers. It's still tickling me up till now.
Imagine... In fact, don't do that. :tearsofjoy: Envision.
This ball is suspended... by a string.
ball.png

Now apply a strong enough force below the ball, and watch as it swings around.
The ball is no longer suspended on the string. It's moving.
animated-smileys-laughing-291.gif


Sorry. :)
 
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