This is what Britain gets for Brexit and nationalism

[HonestJoe]

The Tories won the last election, I oppose them, I want a change at the next election. The same with Brexit

Clearly Brexit isn't a repeatable thing like a general election. A closer equivalent would be you demanding the government changed now because not many people actually voted for them.

If you want to propose scrapping everything so far and applying to re-join to EU (which all the ongoing disruption and political fallout - assuming they'd even agree) then feel free to propose that. Moaning about the referendum result doesn't achieve that.

Name me one thing I can take advantage of under Brexit. btw I am retired.

I'm not defending Brexit but what could you take advantage of when we were within the EU?

Regardless, individual benefits aren't especially significant in the grand scheme of things, it is effects on the overall economy (good, bad and indifferent) that will have the most impact on our lives.

 

[Altfish]

Clearly Brexit isn't a repeatable thing like a general election. A closer equivalent would be you demanding the government changed now because not many people actually voted for them.

If you want to propose scrapping everything so far and applying to re-join to EU (which all the ongoing disruption and political fallout - assuming they'd even agree) then feel free to propose that. Moaning about the referendum result doesn't achieve that.

That is why it was not a referendum that had to be implemented.
Everybody wanted a different version of Brexit; most wanted less immigration and 'sovereignty' (No I don't know what that is either)
But what we have got is the hardest Brexit imaginable - a large many of those that voted for Brexit didn't want that.

I'm not defending Brexit but what could you take advantage of when we were within the EU?

Regardless, individual benefits aren't especially significant in the grand scheme of things, it is effects on the overall economy (good, bad and indifferent) that will have the most impact on our lives.

Freedom of movement
It stimulates growth - with access to 450m people
Member of the largest trading block - on our doorstep
Less paperwork for import/exports
Freedom to work, study abroad
Environmental laws that we are already starting to break
Human Rights laws and labour protection (I believe one of the main reasons why the likes of Rees Mogg wanted Brexit)

I could go on

 

[Stevicus]

The shortage of truck drivers is probably the most immediate issue.

The current driver shortage is estimated to be between 90,000 to 120,000, according to a spokesperson for Logistics UK. While Brexit is not entirely to blame, the fact that the UK no longer has easy access to European drivers has created a headache for the industry.

Not sure how things are in Britain, although similar issues came up regarding the U.S. and NAFTA, particularly the bit about labor shortages and how there were so many jobs which Americans allegedly refused to do.

First, I never really believed that, especially since my own experience when I entered the job market in 1980 indicated to me that employers were just so saturated with workers that they didn't need any more. I applied at grocery stores, fast-food, restaurants, warehouses, wherever I could. My brother tried finding work in construction, but got stonewalled. There were either no openings or companies seemed to be very finicky and picky about who they hired - because they had plenty of qualified applicants in a tight job market. Even the military was getting a high number of recruits, so they could also afford to be more picky.

The only way to really get a job was to know someone on the inside - otherwise you'd be waiting in line around the block just to fill out an application. That's how I got a job at a hotel. However, the minimum wage never increased one penny during the Reagan years. Unions started to diminish in strength and numbers. Medical benefits were very poor or non-existent. Employers treated their employees like crap, like garbage that can be easily disposed of and replaced.

15-20 years later, I would hear businesses lamenting about "labor shortages" and complaining that nobody wants to work for them anymore. Gee, I wonder why. What businesses routinely fail to understand is that it's their attitude which drives away potential workers more than anything else. If business owners would just learn how to become decent human beings, then they would have workers.

Of course, this also had an effect on the perceptions of workers. If a large enough segment of the population believes they're getting a raw deal under the current system, then that will have an effect on how they see things. This is especially true if the government keeps crowing about how "great" the economy is while a significant number of homeless people are out there sleeping in parks and eating out of garbage cans.

After a few decades, people saw that neo-liberalism and free trade weren't delivering on their promises. At best, most people's lives were stagnant, although some areas have seen significant declines (such as the Rust Belt in the U.S. or whatever might be the equivalent in the U.K.). That's what's been happening in the U.S. Too many people have been left behind or simply didn't receive any great benefit or significant improvement in their living conditions. This is why people become more open to different ideas or alternative ways of doing things, because the status quo isn't working for them.

Do you think this might have been the case in Britain? Were too many people left out of the "sharing of the spoils"? That can be a recipe for political discord.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Not sure how things are in Britain, although similar issues came up regarding the U.S. and NAFTA, particularly the bit about labor shortages and how there were so many jobs which Americans allegedly refused to do.

First, I never really believed that, especially since my own experience when I entered the job market in 1980 indicated to me that employers were just so saturated with workers that they didn't need any more. I applied at grocery stores, fast-food, restaurants, warehouses, wherever I could. My brother tried finding work in construction, but got stonewalled. There were either no openings or companies seemed to be very finicky and picky about who they hired - because they had plenty of qualified applicants in a tight job market. Even the military was getting a high number of recruits, so they could also afford to be more picky.

The only way to really get a job was to know someone on the inside - otherwise you'd be waiting in line around the block just to fill out an application. That's how I got a job at a hotel. However, the minimum wage never increased one penny during the Reagan years. Unions started to diminish in strength and numbers. Medical benefits were very poor or non-existent. Employers treated their employees like crap, like garbage that can be easily disposed of and replaced.

15-20 years later, I would hear businesses lamenting about "labor shortages" and complaining that nobody wants to work for them anymore. Gee, I wonder why. What businesses routinely fail to understand is that it's their attitude which drives away potential workers more than anything else. If business owners would just learn how to become decent human beings, then they would have workers.

Of course, this also had an effect on the perceptions of workers. If a large enough segment of the population believes they're getting a raw deal under the current system, then that will have an effect on how they see things. This is especially true if the government keeps crowing about how "great" the economy is while a significant number of homeless people are out there sleeping in parks and eating out of garbage cans.

After a few decades, people saw that neo-liberalism and free trade weren't delivering on their promises. At best, most people's lives were stagnant, although some areas have seen significant declines (such as the Rust Belt in the U.S. or whatever might be the equivalent in the U.K.). That's what's been happening in the U.S. Too many people have been left behind or simply didn't receive any great benefit or significant improvement in their living conditions. This is why people become more open to different ideas or alternative ways of doing things, because the status quo isn't working for them.

Do you think this might have been the case in Britain? Were too many people left out of the "sharing of the spoils"? That can be a recipe for political discord.

The regions of the UK where the Brexit vote was highest - North East England, South Wales, Cornwall, parts of the Midlands - were generally those most impacted by the loss of tradituonal industries, and the well paid union jobs that went with them. So a lot of what you describe would have been a familiar story in those areas.

Those well paid Union jobs have largely been replaced by low wage, low skilled service sector work; in this sector, bad employers have consistently undercut the good, trade union representation has been weak or non existent, personal debt and reliance on benefits to subsidise wages has become widespread.

Pretty much exactly the recipe for discord that you describe.

 

[HonestJoe]

That is why it was not a referendum that had to be implemented.

The referendum only being advisory was a legal technicality. There was no way the government wasn't going to follow through with whatever the result was, it would have political suicide to do otherwise. How would you have reacted if Remain has just won out but they said they were going ahead with Brexit anyway?

The fact remains that the referendum happened, Brexit won and it is happening. I don't see the point replaying over that and moaning about it. There are more important things that can actually change, regarding Brexit and otherwise, that would make much more sense to focus on. If anything, this only serves as a distraction from that.

I could go on

As I said, I'm not interested in defending Brexit. I was only curious about the idea of things you could specifically "take advantage of" an an individual.

 

[Altfish]

As I said, I'm not interested in defending Brexit. I was only curious about the idea of things you could specifically "take advantage of" an an individual.

Yes, and I can't think of a single one.
Can you?

 

[Twilight Hue]

The shortage of truck drivers is probably the most immediate issue.

The current driver shortage is estimated to be between 90,000 to 120,000, according to a spokesperson for Logistics UK. While Brexit is not entirely to blame, the fact that the UK no longer has easy access to European drivers has created a headache for the industry.

These people cannot simply be replaced by British workers. Besides the fact it can take up to nine months to qualify as a driver and cost up to £5,000 ($6,940) according to Logistics UK, Brits are not lining up to take these jobs.
"We have an aging workforce in the UK and the image of working conditions for lorry [truck] drivers -- unsafe parking spaces or places to rest up -- has made it unattractive for lots of younger people," a spokesperson for Logistics UK told CNN Business.
This creates a hard choice for companies: What goods do you prioritize? If you have only one truck leaving your warehouse that day, you are probably going to prioritize perishables over things like bottled water. In the long run, this means less consumer choice and the possibility of consumer panic, as was seen in 2020 when Britain ran short on supplies of toilet paper.
For some idea of how serious a problem is, the bosses of Britain's biggest supermarkets have described the food shortages as unprecedented -- one told The Times newspaper they were "at a worse level than at any time I have seen" -- and warned that shelves could be bare at Christmas due to a lack of drivers.

Later:

But Brexit really is starting to bite. It was never going to be the case that the UK would immediately fall apart. But little by little, many of the assurances made in 2016 and during years of negotiations are cracking.

Perhaps one day Johnson will deem it politically expedient to introduce greater mitigation against the downsides of Brexit. Yet even the timing of that is problematic: Admitting you need damage control means there is damage to control.

The hard reality of Brexit is hitting Britain. It's costing everyone but Boris Johnson - CNN

I can't speak for Britain, but if it's as regulated to death as the US is, I'm not surprised whatsoever there's a shortage.

 

[Twilight Hue]

It was an 'Advisory' poll - it was not binding. Even Farage said if it was 52-48 "It is not finished"

Brexit made many promises. Including ...

• Staying in the single market
• £350m a week for NHS
• Less paperwork
• No immigration

Add to that and they have taken funding from dodgy places and broke election law

Yes, Brexit won, but don't ever ask me to accept it.
I am a patriot, I want what is best for my country - Brexit is not best for our country.

I applaud every Britain who values their sovereignty as a nation not subservient to any other power but themselves.

Never lose that spirit.

 

[Altfish]

I applaud every Britain who values their sovereignty as a nation not subservient to any other power but themselves.

Never lose that spirit.

What is sovereignty?
When did I lose it?
What can I do now that I have it back?

 

[oldbadger]

Rubbish. You not heard of Kent being turned into a lorry park BECAUSE of brexit?

The issue is about driver shortages. This is a World-wide problem.

]27-acre Kent field turned into 2,000-vehicle lorry park ahead of Brexit

Separate situation. I have seen the M20 gridlocked for twenty miles, twenty years ago.
Meh.....

Yet my local supermarket's tannoy keeps on saying sorry for the shortages....Tesco Online are limiting customer orders....

So go to Aldi...... maybe?
You know the slogans at these new names...... 'When it's gone, it's gone'!! So get over it.

Yeah them spoiled ones that like a choice of food or actual loo roll. What's wrong with eating turnips and hedgerow? It got us through the war. That's what we voted for.

That'll be the day, that you need to eat a hedgerow.
You'll be screaming if you can't get your favourite cereal, is my guess.

Thanks for confirming what I said previously. As the delightful Kate Hoey recently said - Northern Ireland has been "thrown under a bus."

The people of Northern Ireland must show that they are together.
You can't help a divided house as easily as you may think. Our ex N.I. vets can tell you that; they got spat at by little infants from both sides.
Or have you got a plan for their unity?

 

[Secret Chief]

The issue is about driver shortages. This is a World-wide problem.

The major issue in the UK is caused by brexit. There were enough drivers till brexit. Simples.

Separate situation. I have seen the M20 gridlocked for twenty miles, twenty years ago.

That lorry park and other measures (temporary, oh sorry no permanent) are directly to deal with brexit and zero to do with solving a 20 year problem.

So go to Aldi...... maybe?

Yeah, cos they're uniquely immune to the brexit fall out.

You'll be screaming if you can't get your favourite cereal, is my guess.

Should I be happy the country has apparently opted for less choice and higher prices? Should I be applauding this retrograde step? Let's hear it for the 1950s.

 

[HonestJoe]

Yes, and I can't think of a single one.
Can you?

No. My point was why should this be all about things you can personally "take advantage of" at all?

 

[Stevicus]

The regions of the UK where the Brexit vote was highest - North East England, South Wales, Cornwall, parts of the Midlands - were generally those most impacted by the loss of tradituonal industries, and the well paid union jobs that went with them. So a lot of what you describe would have been a familiar story in those areas.

Those well paid Union jobs have largely been replaced by low wage, low skilled service sector work; in this sector, bad employers have consistently undercut the good, trade union representation has been weak or non existent, personal debt and reliance on benefits to subsidise wages has become widespread.

Pretty much exactly the recipe for discord that you describe.

It sounds like the economic planners for both the U.S. and the U.K. must have been reading out of the same textbook. The basic strategy is, outsource as much as possible, rely solely on imports, and produce absolutely nothing. Run up a huge trade deficit, grow dependent on foreign imports, watch the economy stagnate and the people grow impoverished. And then, stand around and wonder why so many people are angry and becoming "radicalized."

 

[Truthseeker]

applaud every Britain who values their sovereignty as a nation not subservient to any other power but themselves.

Never lose that spirit.

I'll just say that nationalism has had it's day. If we stick to unbridled sovereignty, the result is disaster. We need to cede some sovereignty because todays problems are becoming more global in scope all the time. The world is interdependent.

 

[oldbadger]

The major issue in the UK is caused by brexit. There were enough drivers till brexit. Simples.

That lorry park and other measures (temporary, oh sorry no permanent) are directly to deal with brexit and zero to do with solving a 20 year problem.

Yeah, cos they're uniquely immune to the brexit fall out.

Should I be happy the country has apparently opted for less choice and higher prices? Should I be applauding this retrograde step? Let's hear it for the 1950s.

OMG!........... the wailings of a Remoaner.......

Tuesday is a rubbish day 'cos I don't see my Missus all day 'till quite late, so I need sweet harmony and happiness to evaporate the misery of Tuesday-at-dawn, and what do I get?
A Remoaner, moaning about stuff.
Whose fault was Covid?....Brexit! Why did we get checked out of Afghanistan?.....Brexit! Car-crash in the High Street?..... Brexit! Can't get yer Apple sauce?.....Brexit!

Please, in future could all Remoaners post their Brexit moans to me on Fridays. I can handle Fridays.

 

[Altfish]

No. My point was why should this be all about things you can personally "take advantage of" at all?

OK. That's "Nothing" then - Brexit the gift that keeps on giving

 

[Altfish]

No. My point was why should this be all about things you can personally "take advantage of" at all?

OK, what benefits have you got from Brexit?

 

[Secret Chief]

OMG!........... the wailings of a Remoaner.......

Tuesday is a rubbish day 'cos I don't see my Missus all day 'till quite late, so I need sweet harmony and happiness to evaporate the misery of Tuesday-at-dawn, and what do I get?
A Remoaner, moaning about stuff.
Whose fault was Covid?....Brexit! Why did we get checked out of Afghanistan?.....Brexit! Car-crash in the High Street?..... Brexit! Can't get yer Apple sauce?.....Brexit!

Please, in future could all Remoaners post their Brexit moans to me on Fridays. I can handle Fridays.

OMG! ......The irrelevant comments of a brexiter..... with nothing to offer but dodging and delusion, reality bouncing off them, like hurling bendy bananas at a statue of Churchill.

Please, in future could all brexiters post their reactionary nonsense in the comments section of the Daily Heil.

 

[HonestJoe]

OK, what benefits have you got from Brexit?

Directly, zero. That's exactly the same number I got from the UK being in the EU though. It's not really relevant anyway, since I'm not arrogant enough to assume that something can only be good if I personally benefit from it.

Yet again, I didn't support Brexit and voted Remain. I don't think that overall, the nation would be significantly better or worse off regardless of whether it is in the EU or not. There are obviously lots of individual differences across all sorts of different areas but I expect the advantages and disadvantages to largely balance out overall. The main reason I opposed Brexit was that I (accurately) predicted the difficulties of the transition. If we hadn't been members in the first place, I would have opposed joining for the same reason.

None of this changes anything about the facts of the real world though. We were the minority vote in the referendum and the UK has left the EU. The best thing we can do, for ourselves and the country as a whole, would be to accept that reality and work towards making it work as well as possible. Endlessly revisiting the referendum result an only serve as a distraction to that and won't help make anything better.

 

[Altfish]

Directly, zero. That's exactly the same number I got from the UK being in the EU though. It's not really relevant anyway, since I'm not arrogant enough to assume that something can only be good if I personally benefit from it.

Yet again, I didn't support Brexit and voted Remain. I don't think that overall, the nation would be significantly better or worse off regardless of whether it is in the EU or not. There are obviously lots of individual differences across all sorts of different areas but I expect the advantages and disadvantages to largely balance out overall. The main reason I opposed Brexit was that I (accurately) predicted the difficulties of the transition. If we hadn't been members in the first place, I would have opposed joining for the same reason.

None of this changes anything about the facts of the real world though. We were the minority vote in the referendum and the UK has left the EU. The best thing we can do, for ourselves and the country as a whole, would be to accept that reality and work towards making it work as well as possible. Endlessly revisiting the referendum result an only serve as a distraction to that and won't help make anything better.

Or, move to Scotland and push for independence and rejoin the EU