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Islam: when is a person considered a Muslim?

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Definitely, I understand, such a thinking is in error, as most people follow the vested clergy instead of checking with the truthful and reason oriented Quran:
4:138
اِنَّ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوۡا ثُمَّ کَفَرُوۡا ثُمَّ اٰمَنُوۡا ثُمَّ کَفَرُوۡا ثُمَّ ازۡدَادُوۡا کُفۡرًا لَّمۡ یَکُنِ اللّٰہُ لِیَغۡفِرَ لَہُمۡ وَ لَا لِیَہۡدِیَہُمۡ سَبِیۡلًا ﴿۱۳۸﴾ؕ
Those who believe, then disbelieve, then again believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never forgive them nor will He guide them to the way.
4:139
بَشِّرِ الۡمُنٰفِقِیۡنَ بِاَنَّ لَہُمۡ عَذَابًا اَلِیۡمَۨا ﴿۱۳۹﴾ۙ
Give to the hypocrites the tidings that for them is a grievous punishment,
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

One can believe and if dissatisfied at one's heart can disbelieve as is evident in the verse of the Quran; such a person is not to be killed as this is not mentioned in it, please. Right?

Regards
The problem is that officials in different countries may have different interpretations than you do. I am not saying that either of you is right or wrong since I know almost nothing of Islam. But we do have to judge Islam by its believers and some of them think that they are justified by the Quran and the Hadith for killing people that leave Islam. They believe this so strongly that they have the death penalty for leaving Islam in some countries:

Saudi Arabia has sentenced people to death for apostasy, Somalia has had many people killed, though it may not have been "official". in Egypt and Pakistan (and probably other countries) the majority of Muslims think that apostasy merits the death penalty. Islam has a long long way to go before it can legitimately claim to be the "religion of peace". I am of course not saying that all Muslims have these beliefs, but far too many do.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
When is a person considered to be a Muslim?

I'm most interested in a child born to Muslim parents: are they considered a Muslim from birth? (Does this depend on whether one has Sunni, Shia, etc. interpretations of the religion?)

I'll be up front about why I ask: I'm curious about whether a teen leaving the religion is considered an apostate for instance, and what that means, and why.

Thanks

Allah(G-d) says:

Quran verse 30:31
فَاَقِمۡ وَجۡہَکَ لِلدِّیۡنِ حَنِیۡفًا ؕ فِطۡرَتَ اللّٰہِ الَّتِیۡ فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَیۡہَا ؕ لَا تَبۡدِیۡلَ لِخَلۡقِ اللّٰہِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ الدِّیۡنُ الۡقَیِّمُ ٭ۙ وَ لٰکِنَّ اَکۡثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿٭ۙ۳۱﴾
So set thy face to the service of religion as one devoted to God. And follow the nature made by Allah — the nature in which He has created mankind. There is no altering the creation of Allah. That is the right religion. But most men know not.
30:32
مُنِیۡبِیۡنَ اِلَیۡہِ وَ اتَّقُوۡہُ وَ اَقِیۡمُوا الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ لَا تَکُوۡنُوۡا مِنَ الۡمُشۡرِکِیۡنَ ﴿ۙ۳۲﴾
Set your face to God, turning to Him in repentance, and fear Him, and observe Prayer, and be not of those who associate partners with God —
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

This unique aspect of Islam, is referred to in the above verse of Quran when it is claimed that a child born , whatever the religion or no-religion of the parents, is a Muslim, I understand, please. Right?
Isn't it reasonable, please. Right?

Regards
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Yes, there is an expectation of hijab (covering almost the whole body) if a woman is a Muslim. Yet women in Afghanistan, too, have been neglecting this duty for a long time. They should fear Allah's punishment.
Many Muslims I've known (students that come to the US many of them) tell me that a woman wearing any sort of veil is not Islam at all -- its Arabic culture.

One of the most modest women I knew was someone in my Islamic religion and literature class at the University. She was from Lebanon, and she dressed like a princess. She wore no head covering. She said that was not required. Her dress was incredibly tasteful and modest. I admired her a lot.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
asked about your own support or lack thereof for such a ruling
Well I'm a Muslim. There is no choice in what to believe as a Muslim. Don't you know what Islam teaches about it? I have already explained the case of apostasy shortly in my first post and provided an article later on many specifics of it. None of what I believe is invented by me and none have I chosen to believe out of convenience. If a book says pink elephants can fly and I say I believe that book is correct, I cannot say I don't believe in flying pink elephants.
Conservative Islam--since your beliefs don't represent Islam wholesale
They more or less do though there are minor differences between scholars. There are no fundamental differences to be gotten from the Islamic sources.
Persecution of religious minorities per the beliefs you've expounded in this thread is a marked similarity between both.
The Chinese government hates all religions. Not just minorities. That has nothing to do with the topic though.
Pretending to be a Muslim--or anything else contrary to one's actual identity and beliefs, for that matter--is a difficult and smothering way to live,
Hell is worse.
If your religious beliefs encourage honesty and integrity at all, then it also seems inconsistent that you would support forcing people to pretend or support executing them if they didn't.
Don't tell me you care about honesty. You know it is in Islamic law that apostates should be executed if all conditions are fulfilled. **mod edit**
Muslims and non-Muslims, as well as ex-Muslims, coexist well in many multicultural societies, and life continues for them without infringement on each other's safety and rights.
Sometimes

French government orders dissolution of leading Muslim rights group

Why Muslims experience more discrimination than other faith groups in America

‘Law against Islam’: French vote in favour of hijab ban condemned

But what does that have to do with Islamic law?
 
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Shakeel

Well-Known Member
So what? That's no reason, defense, or excuse to harass her.
I said it is also a problem that they dress indecently.
So am I. Which includes children
Then you don't know who I'm talking about.
None of them acknowledged the problems of just leaving.
They aren't my problems. I also don't really acknowledge the problems of a murderer hiding a corpse, though I'm sure he faces problems too - but they're not my problems and I don't care how he fares out.
It is an option you listed
Yes. It's undesirable, but a person has a free will. It's not complicated.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
I have seen Muslims justify the death penalty for leaving Islam. Did they both agree to that?
I think that was just me alone, but your previous claim was about when a person becomes a Muslim.
Besides the world of Islam is much much greater than two members on this forum. Your question fails on at least two levels.
So when you said "varied responses" you meant the "responses" all over the world? Really?
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber
I said it is also a problem that they dress indecently.
And I asked "so what" and stated that's no excuse. Think she's dressed indecently? Oh well and mind your own business. That actually is simple.
Then you don't know who I'm talking about.
It seems to me that you're doing more dodging than anything. We've been discussing the same peoples for a few pages now.
They aren't my problems. I also don't really acknowledge the problems of a murderer hiding a corpse, though I'm sure they face problems too - but they're not my problems and I don't care how he fares out
But the solutions you give are not workable. They seem to lack any care or concern.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
Why would anybody say that if they would be murdered for it?
It's anonymous. If women in Afghanistan want to declare their apostasy to the world, they can.
"Believe, hide, or die" is not a choice
It unarguably is a choice.
you hand-wave the fact that these beliefs would lead to children literally being murdered.
Excecution doesn't apply to children. You said so yourself earlier.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
And I asked "so what" and stated that's no excuse.
Good.
Think she's dressed indecently? Oh well and mind your own business. That actually is simple.
Islam commands us to enjoin what is right and to forbid what is wrong. Spreading immorality in a society is not a private affair.
It seems to me that you're doing more dodging than anything. We've been discussing the same peoples for a few pages now.
I was discussing certain women in Afghanistan with @Meow Mix relating to an old thread. The women were leaving an office. There was no mention of minors.
But the solutions you give are not workable. They seem to lack any care or concern.
I'm concerned - of an eternity in hell.
What about someone's freedom to spread immorality? No, I'm not concerned.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I think that was just me alone, but your previous claim was about when a person becomes a Muslim.

So when you said "varied responses" you meant the "responses" all over the world? Really?
I never made a claim about when a person becomes a Muslim. And yes, it was obvious from context that I was talking about all around the world.
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
It started with a thread where terrified women were being accosted by men, and a couple people said things like (paraphrased) "it's because they weren't dressed in burkas,"
That's not paraphrasing, that's lying.
"What if they don't want what (these conservative interpretations of) Islam prescribes for them?"

So I wondered, what choice do they have?
To accept the watered down extremes?
 

Shakeel

Well-Known Member
I never made a claim about when a person becomes a Muslim. And yes, it was obvious from context that I was talking about all around the world.
It was clear that you referred to this thread - if not, it was an unclear comment. You said there are variations on the opinion about when a person becomes a Muslim.

Your comment:
As you can see from the varied responses here when someone is considered a Muslim varies with the sect and the person.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
When is a person considered to be a Muslim?

I'm most interested in a child born to Muslim parents: are they considered a Muslim from birth? (Does this depend on whether one has Sunni, Shia, etc. interpretations of the religion?)

I'll be up front about why I ask: I'm curious about whether a teen leaving the religion is considered an apostate for instance, and what that means, and why.

Thanks

Not sure how "universal" this is in islam, but several muslims (online primarily) have told me that from an islamic perspective, every new born human is considered a muslim. Regardless of their parents, culture, geographic location, etc.

People who believe this, also don't talk about someone "converting" to islam. Instead, they talk about "reverting" to islam.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The problem with Harris' statement is that it effectively dismisses the beliefs of reformist and more moderate Muslims who are able to coexist peacefully with ex-Muslims, LGBT people, etc.


No, it doesn't.
Muslims who live like that, are like the moderate christians, who cherry pick their religious fundamentals.
The fundamentals remain. They are just ignored.

And the Harris quote isn't talking about moderates. It's talking about fundamentalists.
And the same goes for christian fundamentalists for that matter. The problem there isn't the fundamentalists. It's the fundaments of the religion.

He also gives the example of Jainism to contrast his statement.
If a person is a fundamentist "jainist", then that is a person that nobody in society should be worrying about. Because due to the fundamentals of the religion, that person will even be worried about accidentally stepping on a bug resulting in death.

A fundamentalist muslim or christian however.... those people are a threat to secular society. Sometimes violently, other times psychologically. They are rotten apples that corrupt the basket that is peaceful, tolerant civilization.

And the reason for that, are the fundamentals of the religions in question.

No fundamentalist christian or muslim, for example, would ever be okay with equal rights for gay people. Or with gay people, period.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
It's anonymous. If women in Afghanistan want to declare their apostasy to the world, they can.

You cannot be serious, why would they risk their lives like that?

It unarguably is a choice.

Now you're not even being serious. "Do this or die" is not a meaningful choice.

Excecution doesn't apply to children. You said so yourself earlier.

Your link said beating and threats do, and puberty strikes at 11-12 for a lot of people: those are still children. It seems you support murdering sapient and sentient children.

Honestly, at this point this isn't a discussion anymore. These beliefs are so atrocious, so inhuman, so disgusting, that I have nothing more to say.

I literally can't think of any other beliefs espoused on this forum that openly advocate for murdering people, let alone pubescent children, for mere nonbelief. I can only compare such beliefs to things like Nazism in their vileness.
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I hear you and usually I see it the same way. Judaism/Christianity had similar fundamentals and they have discarded them (mostly).

Yes, the moderates ignore those fundamentals. But they are still there. And the fundamentalists, which is what Harris is talking about in the end, do most certainly NOT ignore them.

Islam needs an enlightenment, urgently.

True. But it has to come from within their own society.
"the west" going there and imposing this enlightment, is not going to work at all. In fact, it will only make matters worse.

I sincerely believe that IS would have never existed if it wasn't for western meddling in the middle east these past decades.

IS, after all, originated in Iraqi prisons set up by the US after they invaded the country and dethroned Saddam Hussein - and justified that invasion with pure lies.

This is not how you win over people.
And it most certainly is not how you bring about enlightment.

It is just frustrating how slow that process is - and a positive outcome isn't guaranteed.

Imo, it hasn't even begun yet. And every attempt to "force" it from the outside, imo, is only going to delay that process starting.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
I don't even get the point of murdering pubescent nonbelievers: if they die as kafir, they go to hell. Wouldn't it be better to not murder them, since this gives a greater than zero chance that they might eventually reconvert to Islam? Maybe hold off on the beatings and threats too?

(Disclaimer: I'm talking about one specially heinous view of Islam, not about all Islam in general; I don't want to paint Muslims or Islam in a negative light here. Just this view that says children of Muslim parents that deny Islam at puberty should be murdered; and beaten/threatened if they do before puberty [and then murdered at puberty]).
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
True. But it has to come from within their own society.
"the west" going there and imposing this enlightment, is not going to work at all. In fact, it will only make matters worse.
Yep. Good fences make good neighbours. No matter how "wrong" people are in their country, invading them isn't going to help.
Imo, it hasn't even begun yet. And every attempt to "force" it from the outside, imo, is only going to delay that process starting.
It has begun, even in Saudi Arabia women are now allowed to drive a car.
But that is not the main source of change. While I don't think we should "culturally invade" other countries, we should also not let our countries be invaded. It is perfectly fine with me to ask Muslim who come here to accept our laws and customs - or stay home. And those Muslim will adapt Islam to the 21st century. Like female Imams who exist in Berlin (and Seattle iirc).
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Allah(G-d) says:

Quran verse 30:31
فَاَقِمۡ وَجۡہَکَ لِلدِّیۡنِ حَنِیۡفًا ؕ فِطۡرَتَ اللّٰہِ الَّتِیۡ فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَیۡہَا ؕ لَا تَبۡدِیۡلَ لِخَلۡقِ اللّٰہِ ؕ ذٰلِکَ الدِّیۡنُ الۡقَیِّمُ ٭ۙ وَ لٰکِنَّ اَکۡثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا یَعۡلَمُوۡنَ ﴿٭ۙ۳۱﴾
So set thy face to the service of religion as one devoted to God. And follow the nature made by Allah — the nature in which He has created mankind. There is no altering the creation of Allah. That is the right religion. But most men know not.
30:32
مُنِیۡبِیۡنَ اِلَیۡہِ وَ اتَّقُوۡہُ وَ اَقِیۡمُوا الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ لَا تَکُوۡنُوۡا مِنَ الۡمُشۡرِکِیۡنَ ﴿ۙ۳۲﴾
Set your face to God, turning to Him in repentance, and fear Him, and observe Prayer, and be not of those who associate partners with God —
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search

This unique aspect of Islam, is referred to in the above verse of Quran when it is claimed that a child born , whatever the religion or no-religion of the parents, is a Muslim, I understand, please. Right?
Isn't it reasonable, please. Right?
Another reference is to:

Quran Verse 2:128
وَ اِذۡ یَرۡفَعُ اِبۡرٰہٖمُ الۡقَوَاعِدَ مِنَ الۡبَیۡتِ وَ اِسۡمٰعِیۡلُ ؕ رَبَّنَا تَقَبَّلۡ مِنَّا ؕ اِنَّکَ اَنۡتَ السَّمِیۡعُ الۡعَلِیۡمُ ﴿۱۲۸﴾
And remember the time when Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House, praying, ‘Our Lord, accept this from us; for Thou art All-Hearing, All-Knowing.
2:129
رَبَّنَا وَ اجۡعَلۡنَا مُسۡلِمَیۡنِ* لَکَ وَ مِنۡ ذُرِّیَّتِنَاۤ اُمَّۃً مُّسۡلِمَۃً لَّکَ ۪ وَ اَرِنَا مَنَاسِکَنَا وَ تُبۡ عَلَیۡنَا ۚ اِنَّکَ اَنۡتَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِیۡمُ ﴿۱۲۹﴾
‘Our Lord, make us submissive* to Thee and make of our offspring a people submissive* to Thee. And show us our ways of worship, and turn to us with mercy; for Thou art Oft-Returning with compassion and Merciful.
2:130
رَبَّنَا وَ ابۡعَثۡ فِیۡہِمۡ رَسُوۡلًا مِّنۡہُمۡ یَتۡلُوۡا عَلَیۡہِمۡ اٰیٰتِکَ وَ یُعَلِّمُہُمُ الۡکِتٰبَ وَ الۡحِکۡمَۃَ وَ یُزَکِّیۡہِمۡ ؕ اِنَّکَ اَنۡتَ الۡعَزِیۡزُ الۡحَکِیۡمُ ﴿۱۳۰﴾٪
‘And, our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from among themselves, who may recite to them Thy Signs and teach them the Book and Wisdom and may purify them; surely, Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.’
Holy Quran: Read, Listen and Search
*Muslim
In this sense as per the prayers/supplications of Abraham and Ishmael good people among their offspring (like Isaac Moses, Jacob, Joseph, David, Solomon, Jesus, Muhammad) have been named muslim/s even before they were born, please.
Isn't it very natural and reasonable, please?
And in there ^ is also a prophecy for the advent of Muhammad who named his people as Muslims as per the prayers/supplications of Abraham and Ishmael as mentioned above, please. Right?

Regards
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
When is a person considered to be a Muslim?

I'm most interested in a child born to Muslim parents: are they considered a Muslim from birth? (Does this depend on whether one has Sunni, Shia, etc. interpretations of the religion?)

I'll be up front about why I ask: I'm curious about whether a teen leaving the religion is considered an apostate for instance, and what that means, and why.

Thanks

Judaism is a racial thing, they keep the Jewish race mostly pure.

The Muslims on the other hand are not Muslim from birth, as Muslims interbreed with native groups. It is mainly religion that determines Islam. Although people living in Muslim countries or households are considered to be Muslim, and apostasy from Islam often carries harsh penalties, daughters and sons of Muslim families often do turn to Christianity or some other religion. They usually face tremendous pressure, and to be honest it is not always possible to tell the true converts from the false ones.
 
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