Would a good god allow the Coronavirus?

[TransmutingSoul]

Does the "punishment" fit the "crime" here in anyone's estimation i wonder? Put another way - are we to be learning some type of "lesson" from this punishment in order to see ourselves on a road to "reform?" And if not, then how does this view make any sense to anyone? Why would God punish people in a way that doesn't explicitly let them know what it is they are doing wrong? Because, let's face it, it isn't like He's going to show up and actually inform us of what it is we're doing wrong. It's a bit like putting spiders in someone's bed at night because they forgot to fill the ice cube trays again. It's silly to think this way, and even sillier to believe that a supposed "enlightened" or "most wise" being would think or behave this way.

Well I see God does show up and tell us what we are doing wrong. Not only that, but we'll before the events to show us how to do it right.

Now we know what it is to have a Faith.

All the things we needed to do, to prevent the transmission of dangerous viruses has been offered.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

According to sufi teaching and to Allah

Alright... so... there are two sets of railroad tracks, and Allah stands at the fork, at a lever that controls which track the train will travel on. On one track there is a child, obliviously chasing a butterfly, and on the other track are three old men bickering whose hearing is poor enough that they don't hear the train coming. Which track does Allah send the train on?

 

[The Sum of Awe]

And by your estimation, does this mean that the weeds themselves should not esteem their lives and livelihoods as worthy of being lived, in and of themselves? Does this, in your estimation, mean that the weeds should not fight for their lives (perhaps through adaptation, or whatever means may be available to them)?

Ultimately, it boils down to the very obvious answer to a simple question - who should give a crap what plans the farmer has? The obvious answer - the farmer, and no one else necessarily need pay him mind. Now extend your exact same analogy, with this fresh information in mind, to "God" and what do you see? That God is the only one who is necessarily concerned with His own plans... none of we others need pay him any mind. As a weed... I will keep trying to grow, thank you very, very much for your concern. Please pass on to the "farmer," if you happen to see him, that I don't give one flying rat's patoot about His plans. There... I even asked fairly nicely.

But again... this can't mean that we don't try to ameliorate our circumstances by avoiding the suffering. Which is, quite frankly, what we put a great deal of our time into trying to do. Even yourself, I would easily and quickly hazard a guess. So that's that... "plans" be damned.

Of course! Our rebellion against nature is a natural thing in itself. Everything is a part of God's plan, including trying to fight it.

Have you heard the expression, "If it's meant to be, then it will be?" in regards to relationships? This doesn't mean we should roll over and let the people we want to form bonds with walk all over us, we will fight and the relationship will bruise and grow and change. Whether or not relationship survives in the end, it ends up being the way it should be.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Alright... so... there are two sets of railroad tracks, and Allah stands at the fork, at a lever that controls which track the train will travel on. On one track there is a child, obliviously chasing a butterfly, and on the other track are three old men bickering whose hearing is poor enough that they don't hear the train coming. Which track does Allah send the train on?

i am not speaking for Allah.
It would be totally wrong of me to even think i knew what Allah would do

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Well I see God does show up and tell us what we are doing wrong. Not only that, but we'll before the events to show us how to do it right.

Not with any sort of punctuality regarding the event. He showed up, what, 2,000 years ago or more? What of the issues we are facing now, here, today? Can you, for instance, tell me what God thinks of vaccinations? How about of transgendered participants in the Olympics? What does God think of space travel? Of plundering the moon or other off-world bodies of matter for useful resources? Any guidance on these topics that is demonstrably relevant?

Now we know what it is to have a Faith.

Perhaps some of us. Myself most decidedly excluded.

All the things we needed to do, to prevent the transmission of dangerous viruses has been offered.

Yes, by science discovering the actual mechanics behind viral behavior and transmission - and no, I don't care that you think that God "provided the scientists." When you have a child, do you think you would wait for someone else to come along to tell them what they should be doing when they ASK YOU for help? That's apparently how God behaves, and it is downright dumb.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

i am not speaking for Allah.
It would be totally wrong of me to even think i knew what Allah would do

Well... wait then... how do you get your instruction on what you should be doing? I thought you said you get it from Allah? But if that is the case, how can that be if you have no idea what Allah would do in various situations?

How about if YOU were the one standing at the lever? What do you think Allah would wish for you to do? And if, again, you cannot speak for what Allah would wish for you to do, then I am at a complete loss. At that point, there would appear to be no source from which you gain instruction on how you should be behaving yourself. How can this be? I am sure you make decisions with some amount of moral tilt to them quite frequently. How ever do you accomplish this?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Of course! Our rebellion against nature is a natural thing in itself. Everything is a part of God's plan, including trying to fight it.

Have you heard the expression, "If it's meant to be, then it will be?" in regards to relationships? This doesn't mean we should roll over and let the people we want to form bonds with walk all over us, we will fight and the relationship will bruise and grow and change. Whether or not relationship survives in the end, it ends up being the way it should be.

Just remember... if you happen to see Him.. pass along my words. I am counting on you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Well... wait then... how do you get your instruction on what you should be doing? I thought you said you get it from Allah? But if that is the case, how can that be if you have no idea what Allah would do in various situations?

How about if YOU were the one standing at the lever? What do you think Allah would wish for you to do? And if, again, you cannot speak for what Allah would wish for you to do, then I am at a complete loss. At that point, there would appear to be no source from which you gain instruction on how you should be behaving yourself. How can this be? I am sure you make decisions with some amount of moral tilt to them quite frequently. How ever do you accomplish this?

For me, the right thing would be to stop the train before it hit someone. (i am aware you now will tell me, i can not stop the train in time, it has to hit one of them)

The more i read, study and cultivate the my heart the more understanding of what Allah want me to do will arise within me. (and no i do not have a physical contact with Allah, He does not sit next to me in my room and tell me what i can and can not do) the teaching in the quran, hadith, sufi texts does that

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Not with any sort of punctuality regarding the event. He showed up, what, 2,000 years ago or more? What of the issues we are facing now, here, today? Can you, for instance, tell me what God thinks of vaccinations? How about of transgendered participants in the Olympics? What does God think of space travel? Of plundering the moon or other off-world bodies of matter for useful resources? Any guidance on these topics that is demonstrably relevant?

Actually from 1844 to 1957 we were constantly warned, and from 1957 the advice has been constantly shared.

Thus this thread is to me all about that rejection, the path humanity has chosen brings upon us events that will cause suffering to a majority.

Vaccination is good, it is our best scientific medical advice available.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Actually from 1844 to 1957 we were constantly warned, and from 1957 the advice has been constantly shared.

Warned and advised by who, PRECISELY?

 

[SomeRandom]

How do we define what is evil? Do we wipe out all crocodiles and snakes?

Who will give us the balance?

Regards Tony

How are either evil? A Christian might not like a snake but to a Hindu the snake is sacred. A Croc just looks a bit scary

 

[SomeRandom]

Science needs to discover what caused this outbreak so we can prevent it from happening again. This is a matter for science to solve and has nothing to do with God.

I agree. But I was responding to the OP

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Just remember... if you happen to see Him.. pass along my words. I am counting on you.

God already knows your words, they too are a part of his plan

 

[SomeRandom]

Does the "punishment" fit the "crime" here in anyone's estimation i wonder? Put another way - are we to be learning some type of "lesson" from this punishment in order to see ourselves on a road to "reform?" And if not, then how does this view make any sense to anyone? Why would God punish people in a way that doesn't explicitly let them know what it is they are doing wrong? Because, let's face it, it isn't like He's going to show up and actually inform us of what it is we're doing wrong. It's a bit like putting spiders in someone's bed at night because they forgot to fill the ice cube trays again. It's silly to think this way, and even sillier to believe that a supposed "enlightened" or "most wise" being would think or behave this way.

I suppose like everything that is divine, the intent is supposedly “beyond human comprehension.” Which is the main issue I have with this line of thinking. No one is supposed to question “God’s will.” Even if it kills people

From the perspective of the people who hold this view that then must mean that all of the people who have died of the virus were evil in some way? I find this hard to believe... and quite an insult to intelligence I might add.

Not necessarily. An Abrahamic might, but a Dharmic usually accepts that innocent people will perish as well. For the greater good, of course.

Please note - I understand you don't hold these views - these are just my comments on the types of people you were describing... which I too know to exist.

Fair enough

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Warned and advised by who, PRECISELY?

Not for this topic, there is the OP 'Faith teaches itself' , you can move those questions to.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

For me, the right thing would be to stop the train before it hit someone. (i am aware you now will tell me, i can not stop the train in time, it has to hit one of them)

So this is what Allah would do? Or what Allah would have you do? Is that how this works?

The more i read, study and cultivate the my heart the more understanding of what Allah want me to do will arise within me. (and no i do not have a physical contact with Allah, He does not sit next to me in my room and tell me what i can and can not do) the teaching in the quran, hadith, sufi texts does that

So, it takes reading, studying, I assume interpreting, etc. to come to this understanding of yours... of what you feel you should do? i suppose that presents another question then - in this "in between" time, when you encounter things for which your understanding is not yet fully formed (or informed as the case may be), what do you rely on? How do you make decisions in those cases? What is it that drives you to make one choice versus another?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Not for this topic, there is the OP 'Faith teaches itself' , you can move those questions to.

Regards Tony

Hahaha... thank you for this. Just further confirmation that it more often than not ends in this exact thing. An unwillingness to answer for fear of implicating oneself... on the side of the theist that is. I don't know that I have ever seen this same behavior from atheists, honestly. Fear to answer... it is most definitely unbecoming in my opinion. You take care now.

 

[Spirit of Light]

So this is what Allah would do? Or what Allah would have you do? Is that how this works?

So, it takes reading, studying, I assume interpreting, etc. to come to this understanding of yours... of what you feel you should do? i suppose that presents another question then - in this "in between" time, when you encounter things for which your understanding is not yet fully formed (or informed as the case may be), what do you rely on? how do you make decisions in those cases? What is it that drives you to make one choice versus another?

It is what I would chose to do, I do not wish to kill or harm any being.

At any time, I have to use my understanding of the teaching, and understanding of the situation to be able to act, speak or think according to what the teaching say is the better way.
And when my understanding is not on a high level i might do something wrong and it can lead to suffering and pain. Then I have to learn from my own faults and understand how I might do it more righteous next time.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

God already knows your words, they too are a part of his plan

And so on I shall go... a good little robot indeed, eh?

And you can go about executing your apparent part in this whole "plan" - that is, attempting to console those who suffer with the idea that their suffering is all just "part of the plan." I am sure a great many of the other robots/cogs will be extremely grateful to you. If I happen to see Him first, I'll let God know that you were also a very, very good little robot, hard at work on "the plan."

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I suppose like everything that is divine, the intent is supposedly “beyond human comprehension.”

Unfortunately for those who might employ that excuse, the moment it reaches "beyond [my] comprehension" then I cannot, in any way, be held accountable for any actions I take or reactions I have based on my inability to understand. That is... if there is a way I am expected to react, but I cannot, by definition, fathom the situation to understand what it is all about, and how I might otherwise react to it if I knew why it was happening, then whatever reaction I DO have is what you get, full stop. Try to explain it all you want... if it is "beyond human comprehension" than even the person trying to explain it has no idea what they are talking about, and need not be heeded in any way! For they don't "get it" either!