Debate a Muslim

[Ghazaly]

Introduction to Islamic law LA3028

- That's not a Sharia course... lmao!

 

[firedragon]

It isn't because they might become pregnant and breast feed?

Maybe, maybe not, maybe more. A whole different topic.

 

[SA Huguenot]

- If you're going to spent that much effort typing all this you should've probably read what I said. Try one more time.

...
- Because it is, & ultimately because Allah (swt) says so in the Quran: "And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of them [i.e., the women] errs, then the other can remind her." (2:282). The Quran is the primary source of legislation in Sharia, followed by the Sunnah, Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (analogical reasoning), Aql (reason) & Istihsan (good customs).

- If you're inquiring about the rationale not the impetus, then it's in the verse itself. To have more corroboration in testimony, for fear of lapses in memory – & not for anything relating to gender itself. To understand what this entails, we have to take a step back into the general structure of a Muslim society under Sharia. Women are believed to be morally efficient (ma'nawyyat) yet materially deficient (maddyyat), while men are believed to be material efficient & morally deficient. Therefore, Sharia materially compliments women (giving them priority rights), while it morally burdens them (with extra moral duties such as child rearing). Conversely for men. Thus, a woman has, by Sharia, a permanent right to material & physical security mandated onto her father, husband, son, brother...(if not, then the state). [& many other material rights not granted to the man]. Therefore, women, contrary to men, are never required by Sharia to work or provide. Thus they, hence contrary to men, can not be expected to be familiar with financial transactions. It follows, Ishhad, as a criteria of minimum testimony required for financial transactions, can only follow the norm of expectations, otherwise rendered less than reliable.

- As to specific cases where a woman is known to be familiar with said transactions & has a record of fulfilling them, then according to the rationale of the verse itself, their testimony is valid, for absence of the inattentiveness factor in the female witness offsets the need of another. This could also be thought of as 'expert testimony'. In case there were no men & only women present in the transaction, it does not necessarily entail the testimony is invalid, rather it entails a further step of verification by the judge. If the judge sees what satisfy a reliable testimony then it holds.
...

This is not true at all!
Muhammad said women are defficient in their minds, thats why they need to be 2 women witnesses to one man's witness.
In the same Hadith Muhammad also said that the majority in hell are women, because they are deficient in their religion, because some times when they have their menses, they cant pray!
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

 

[SA Huguenot]

Sahih hadiths by Bukhari was written 200 years after Prophet Muhammad's death. And after Prophet Muhammad's death many enemies of islam fabricated false hadiths, so no, all sahih hadiths is not correct.

OK, so do you reject the Hadith Al Bukhari?

 

[Starlight]

This is not true at all!
Muhammad said women are defficient in their minds, thats why they need to be 2 women witnesses to one man's witness.
In the same Hadith Muhammad also said that the majority in hell are women, because they are deficient in their religion, because some times when they have their menses, they cant pray!
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

How can you be sure this hadith is true? That he really Said this? You can not. Because hadiths was written down 200 years after Prophet Muhammad's death!

 

[sayak83]

- If you're going to spent that much effort typing all this you should've probably read what I said. Try one more time.




- Your point? Go on. Make your argument.


- Sure! And..!? I don't see the objection. You're sharing your personal feelings. How are you feelings relevant to the state & its laws & policies? Even if, how are they justifiable? Why then are Sharia laws comparatively not justifiable? You haven't provided an argument nor an objection. If you wish to object, you must show:

1. that your position is relevant
2. what this entails
3. why is this good
4. what my position entails
5. why is it bad

- There are people in Muslim countries as well, so yeah. Point was, violent crimes rate in the US are significantly higher than in Muslim countries (or most countries for that matter), oftentimes an order of magnitude higher.


- Western secular system in general does not allow for any alternative worldview, in any systematic institution. In academia all competing worldviews are thwarted at the door. For instance, I can not go into a university & offer a Sharia course & teach it, for that violates the 'secular' doctrine of the institution. Debate is not about having the occasional event, it's about having competing worldview in intense constant debate & sharing of ideas.


- I bring you state actions & you bring me individual action!? Such incidents are extremely rare, & often end in execution of the murderers, such as in the case of Faraj Fodah who was assassinated & his assassin was sentenced to death. Killing Christian apostates is not uncommon in the West either. But why is any of this relevant to Sharia & apostasy laws!? You have American pastors calling for killing gays & Muslims, what does that have to do with US law!


- Concession much? One: this is most appropriate for Western intellectual institutions. The fact that they don't allow alternative worldview shows the zero confidence in the truth of their claims, in your own words. Two: removing deceptive factors does not entail removing opposite worldviews; On the complete contrary, it entails inviting competing worldviews on the highest level, that's what the Quran is referring to. It's easy to trick the masses who don't have enough knowledge to defend against your propaganda. If your ideas have any merit, go to the university (like Dar Hikma in Baghdad) & prove your worth against the other scholars instead of preying on the weak minded.


- Again, I'm speaking from principle & you're speaking from hypothetical example. Islamic political theorists' (like al-Muwardi) position on apostasy is known, it relates to threats against the integrity of the state. In fact, there are no recoded incidents of individual apostates being executed for just being apostates in pre-colonial Islamic history. Abu Bakr Razi, the famous doctor, apostatized & wrote books criticizing the faith before he returned to it. Abu Alaa Maari, the famous poet, did the same. He wasn't even fired from his position... They all died peacefully in bed.


- Sure sure! How is this any relevant to the state. What you're saying is unattainable. No death penalty is war is suicide.




- It strictly does. Obligatory duty is within stated benefits, anything else is not obligatory by Sharia. Obligation entails sin upon failure to uphold. There are 5 types rulings in Sharia:

• Wajib – obligatory = reward upon commission & sin upon omission.
• Mandub – recommended = reward upon commission.
• Mubah – permissible = no reward & no sin.
• Makruh – discouraged = reward upon omission.
• Mahdhur – prohibited = sin upon commission & reward upon omission.

- Beyond stated benefits, the duties conforming to the rules I mentioned would fall under Mandub (recommended), as in the wife is rewarded in doing them but does not sin if she does not do them.


- Yes, but not necessary immediately, for obvious reasons. Something between 40 days & 4 months being the legal limit according to different opinions on the matter.


- This is a question of Muaashara – intimacy. The Prophet (pbuh) had enjoyed affection, compassion, forebearence, love, patience, kindness, compromise & sacrifice among couples. What I mentioned in the previous post are matters pertain to legal rights & legal recourse. Beyond that, what's good in life is also good in marriage.


- Because it is, & ultimately because Allah (swt) says so in the Quran: "And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of them [i.e., the women] errs, then the other can remind her." (2:282). The Quran is the primary source of legislation in Sharia, followed by the Sunnah, Ijma (consensus), Qiyas (analogical reasoning), Aql (reason) & Istihsan (good customs).

- If you're inquiring about the rationale not the impetus, then it's in the verse itself. To have more corroboration in testimony, for fear of lapses in memory – & not for anything relating to gender itself. To understand what this entails, we have to take a step back into the general structure of a Muslim society under Sharia. Women are believed to be morally efficient (ma'nawyyat) yet materially deficient (maddyyat), while men are believed to be material efficient & morally deficient. Therefore, Sharia materially compliments women (giving them priority rights), while it morally burdens them (with extra moral duties such as child rearing). Conversely for men. Thus, a woman has, by Sharia, a permanent right to material & physical security mandated onto her father, husband, son, brother...(if not, then the state). [& many other material rights not granted to the man]. Therefore, women, contrary to men, are never required by Sharia to work or provide. Thus they, hence contrary to men, can not be expected to be familiar with financial transactions. It follows, Ishhad, as a criteria of minimum testimony required for financial transactions, can only follow the norm of expectations, otherwise rendered less than reliable.

- As to specific cases where a woman is known to be familiar with said transactions & has a record of fulfilling them, then according to the rationale of the verse itself, their testimony is valid, for absence of the inattentiveness factor in the female witness offsets the need of another. This could also be thought of as 'expert testimony'. In case there were no men & only women present in the transaction, it does not necessarily entail the testimony is invalid, rather it entails a further step of verification by the judge. If the judge sees what satisfy a reliable testimony then it holds.


- Shahada is a conclusive testimony. & that's a powerful & dangerous thing. What it entails is once you have Shahada, there is no further need for supplementary evidence. It means the case is established, not even the judge can undo that. There is no equivalent notion in Western laws, that's why it's probably harder to perceive. Think about a murder, Shahada is a corroborated testimony by two reliable (trustworthy & judicious) unmotivated (by interest, or kinship, or bias... in the case) independent witnesses. After Shahada the court needs no further evidence to convicted the murderer, which is why the conditions on it are so stringent.

- The reason why women according to the majority opinion are not allowed to testify in penalties is not only because of the nature of the criminal acts (gory & unpleasant) or because of the significant outcome this testimony entails (execution or severing hand...) –which may induce empathy in the woman's heart, but also because verifying a female's reliability is unfeasible. For instance, men are obligated to pray in the mosque, if a man is found out to skip his mosque prayers, then his Shahada is rejected, for someone who does not fear God to uphold his religious obligations, can not be trusted to fear God while testifying. A woman, on the other hand, is not required to pray in the mosque, & there is no way we can verify her prayers at home.




- This is not my reading. I'm speaking about the positions of the Four Madhhabs on these matters. Anything else is personal feelings.


- There are two opinions regarding the issue of when either of the parties (wife or husband) fails to fulfill their duties, One: the other party is also absolved of theirs –for a contract is based on exchanged benefits; Two: it is not absolved of theirs, for if one side is sinning the other shouldn't. Either way, the reverse of rights is not sanctioned in Sharia. The wife may provide for her husband from her own grace, for which she is doubly rewarded (for provision & for charity, as the Prophet (pbuh) said), but this does not entail the husband has to obey his wife's sexual wishes. Obligation in Sharia is about sin & reward, do means reward, don't means sin. However, a husband may strike such a deal with his wife, it's just not binding in Sharia.

I read your statements. There were a lot of opinions and ifs and buts. I have a simple question:-
I am Muslim in a Muslim majority country who no longer think Quran is the word of God but Gita is. So I change my religion, construct a temple of Krishna and invite people for a religious celebration of my God Krishna during Holi. Am I allowed to do this or not if that country follows the ideal Quran and the ideal Sharia. If not why not? Please be concise and clear.

I am creating a specific case to study what you believe is right or wrong from your view of Islam.

 

[Shakeel]

Well, why did Muhammad have so much women.

Many women he married were widows and they needed someone to take care of them. It also strengthened his ties with some tribes and gave the people many knowledgeable female teachers. For instance, who would teach women about the things a man is too shy to teach about? Who will advice women on marriage? Men? Should men teach them how to take care of men? Usually women learn how to treat men from other women. If they learned it from men they would behave like men.

 

[Shakeel]

- That's not a Sharia course... lmao!

Yes, it is. Maybe it isn't good enough for you, I don't know, but it is a course on sharia in a university.

 

[Shakeel]

How can you be sure this hadith is true? That he really Said this? You can not. Because hadiths was written down 200 years after Prophet Muhammad's death!

"How can you be sure the Qur'an is true?"
Is a question to ask anyone who claims to believe in the Qur'an being preserved and claims the hadiths are definitely not.

 

[SA Huguenot]

Exactly my point.
Muslims adore the Hadith because it gives a recollection of what Muhammad said in his life.
Now, If Al Bukhari collected the words of Muhammad during his life from people who were the grand children of Muhammad's time companions, he got it from people who were Muslims.
Therefore, Muslims concocted the se lies, and gave it to Bukhari to publish.
Therefore, If the Hadith Al Bukhari is false, then it should be discarded!
However, no muslim will ever do that because then they will have to explain where their 5 prayers comes from, where their dress codes comes from, their ablution regulations, their prayers itself, and about 80% of Islamic religion comes from.

I dont have a problem if Muslims tell me the Hadith is not trustworthy, because the Hadith is the Judiceprudence of Islam.
Thats why I always ask them if they reject the hadith, because then they lost 80% of their religious rites, history and dogma.

 

[Shakeel]

Maybe, maybe not, maybe more. A whole different topic.

Nope. It's the same topic as before. Why can't women bear witness while they're pregnant or breast feeding? Not every different perspective needs a new thread.

 

[firedragon]

This is not true at all!
Muhammad said women are defficient in their minds, thats why they need to be 2 women witnesses to one man's witness.
In the same Hadith Muhammad also said that the majority in hell are women, because they are deficient in their religion, because some times when they have their menses, they cant pray!
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

Can you give your authentication to this ahadith? Is it Haddathana or Ahbaranah? As in direct listening or hearsay? What is the analogical analysis as in Kisas? Also, you said "Muhammed said" which means you are making a positive claim. So can you provide your evidence to the positive claim other than saying "muslims say so"?

If your premise is that some "muslims say so", do you adopt everything some Muslims say so?

Also how about ahadith principles of Maaqul or reason, manqul, or Quran and living tradition, and usool or principles or science? Can you explain?

 

[firedragon]

Exactly my point.
Muslims adore the Hadith because it gives a recollection of what Muhammad said in his life.
Now, If Al Bukhari collected the words of Muhammad during his life from people who were the grand children of Muhammad's time companions, he got it from people who were Muslims.
Therefore, Muslims concocted the se lies, and gave it to Bukhari to publish.
Therefore, If the Hadith Al Bukhari is false, then it should be discarded!
However, no muslim will ever do that because then they will have to explain where their 5 prayers comes from, where their dress codes comes from, their ablution regulations, their prayers itself, and about 80% of Islamic religion comes from.

I dont have a problem if Muslims tell me the Hadith is not trustworthy, because the Hadith is the Judiceprudence of Islam.
Thats why I always ask them if they reject the hadith, because then they lost 80% of their religious rites, history and dogma.

With all of this in mind, why do YOU quote ahadith as if they are "what Muhammed said"? Thats exactly what you say? So why do you practice this double standards? Can you clarify?

1. Are they what Muhammed said or do you have doubts?
2. If you dont have doubts do you accept them all?
3. If you have doubts why do you quote them as fact saying "Muhammed said this" when you wish to?

Please explain.

 

[firedragon]

Nope. It's the same topic as before. Why can't women bear witness while they're pregnant or breast feeding? Not every different perspective needs a new thread.

Nah. That was about why women dont lead or something of that nature. Maybe you should follow the discussions closely. Its not a different perspective, its a whole different topic. You see what you should be?

 

[SA Huguenot]

"How can you be sure the Qur'an is true?"
Is a question to ask anyone who claims to believe in the Qur'an being preserved and claims the hadiths are definitely not.

Anyhow, it is a fact that the Quran existed long before Muhammad in Persia. Muhammad perhaps never existed and the religion was made up by Hakim in 691.
All the money coins in the "Known Muslim world" between 630 to 620 was pagan, and had no reflection about Islam or Muhammad.
The oldest manuscripts of the Quran anyhow dates from 300 after Muhammad.
And all the other manuscripts does not correspond to this one from Sanaa.
Today there are 4 different qurans in the world, with major differences.
I have al 4 printed coppies.
Hafs, Warsh, Qualan, and Al Duri.
They all differ, and to make things worse, they dont even compare to the Sanna, Topkapi, and Samarkant manuscripts. Then the Blue Manuscript in kairo is also different.

Nope, I think Hakim didit!

 

[SA Huguenot]

With all of this in mind, why do YOU quote ahadith as if they are "what Muhammed said"? Thats exactly what you say? So why do you practice this double standards? Can you clarify?

1. Are they what Muhammed said or do you have doubts?
2. If you dont have doubts do you accept them all?
3. If you have doubts why do you quote them as fact saying "Muhammed said this" when you wish to?

Please explain.

I dont believe in the Quran.
I dont believe in the Hadith.
I dont believe you.
I dont believe Muslims.
I dont believe anyone, not Jews, Christians, Huindu, Atheists and anyone on this Earth.

The difference is I take the stuff people say I should learn to find the only Truth, as jou did attempt to do, and I search the contents etc.
only after I made a study, do I decide on what is the truth!

and for one thing. The Quran and Hadith is the exact same, and without the Hadith, you will not have any understanding of the Quran.

My question to Muslims is very simple:
Do you reject the Hadith?

 

[Starlight]

Anyhow, it is a fact that the Quran existed long before Muhammad in Persia. Muhammad perhaps never existed and the religion was made up by Hakim in 691.
All the money coins in the "Known Muslim world" between 630 to 620 was pagan, and had no reflection about Islam or Muhammad.
The oldest manuscripts of the Quran anyhow dates from 300 after Muhammad.
And all the other manuscripts does not correspond to this one from Sanaa.
Today there are 4 different qurans in the world, with major differences.
I have al 4 printed coppies.
Hafs, Warsh, Qualan, and Al Duri.
They all differ, and to make things worse, they dont even compare to the Sanna, Topkapi, and Samarkant manuscripts. Then the Blue Manuscript in kairo is also different.

Nope, I think Hakim didit!

Above in the tread you wrote you believe all the sahih hadiths in Bukhari is correct, and because of that you are sure Prophet Muhammad did and said whats written in Bukhari

But now you say that maybe prophet Muhammad never existed.

... You contradict yourself

 

[firedragon]

I dont believe in the Hadith.

Then why do you quote it as if its what you witnessed yourself?

Post #123

 

[Starlight]

Then why do you quote it as if its what you witnessed yourself?

Post #123

Good question. He contradict himself

 

[Ghazaly]

This is not true at all!
Muhammad said women are defficient in their minds, thats why they need to be 2 women witnesses to one man's witness.
In the same Hadith Muhammad also said that the majority in hell are women, because they are deficient in their religion, because some times when they have their menses, they cant pray!
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:

Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion."
Sahih Bukhari 1:6:301

What's up with the nasty formatting!!!

- First of all, why are mentioning a Hadith that supports what I just said in my post? Indeed, women are materially deficient & morally efficient. Nice twist of facts there. You're taking a hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) urging women to give charity & be grateful to their husbands, to mean something else instead –for obvious ulterior motives (hate). Same with the the other twist about Hell.. the majority of women going to Hell are those who don't give charity & aren't grateful to their husbands.

- Second of all, Aql does not mean intelligence, it means Reason, as in the rational faculty, which women obviously lack in favor of greater emotional propensity. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Allah Most High said, 'I Am Allah, I Am the Most-Merciful (Rahman), I created the womb (rahim) & named it after my name [rahim from rahman]. So whoever keeps good relations with it, I keep good relation with him, and whoever severs it, I am finished with him'." The womb is the source of mercy in the world through which Allah's Mercy is expanded.

- Third of all, we understand traditions in light of overall message & all other traditions. Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) honored women more than any other in history. Even upon his death bed he kept insisting on their rights: "the last of his advice of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) three things he kept repeating until his tongue stammered and his speech faded, he kept saying, [...] Allah Allah [fear God] for your women [...]". He (pbuh) honored those who honor women, saying: "The most perfect man in his faith among the believers is the one whose behavior is most excellent; and the best of you are those who are the best to their wives.". He prescribed the equity between men & women saying: “Verily, women are but the equivalent of men. Those honorable among men will honor them, and those dishonorable among men will dishonor them”. He enjoined Muslim to treat their women kindly even in the little things: “There is a reward for a man who offers his wife a drink”, &: “The act of putting a bite into your wife’s mouth is a charitable deed”. Add to that his (pbuh) wise advice to men in kindling dealing with women ”A believer must not hate his wife ; if he dislikes one of her qualities, he will be pleased with another”, & respecting their privacy : "[he] forbade that a man should come to his family like (an unexpected) night visitor doubting their fidelity and spying into their lapses.".

- Finally, I see that you're Christian. What does your Bible say about women:

• Little girls are to be killed or raped: "And now, slay every male among the infants, indeed, slay every woman knowing a man by the lying of a male, and all the infants among the women who have not known the lying of a male you have kept alive for yourselves." (Numbers 13:17-18)
• Girls who fornicate to be burnt alive: "And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profanes her father: she shall be burnt with fire.". (Leviticus 21:9)
• Women are impure & those who touch them defile themselves: "Those are those (men) who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes." (Revelation 14:4)
• Women are the glory of men: "A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. [...] the head of the woman is man." (1 Corinthians 11:6-7)

- Go home before I rain you with so much Bible "God's wrath" you'll start saying the Shahada.