ALL have sinned.

[Trailblazer]

Men have been given the chance to demonstrate their righteousness through the law, but have failed.

Not all men have failed to uphold the law but righteousness comes through deeds, not the law.

Matthew 25:35-45 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You mean the mess he created.

How can an omniscient God enter into creation not knowing the outcome?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Not all men have failed to uphold the law but righteousness comes through deeds, not the law.

Matthew 25:35-45 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Who are the righteous? Clearly, the righteous are those who have been given the righteousness of Christ through faith and (Holy Spirit) baptism.

If righteousness had been achieved under the Law then it would not have been necessary to send a Saviour, Jesus Christ. Christ is, according to scripture, the only man who has fulfilled the law.

 

[Trailblazer]

You mean the mess he created.

What mess did God create?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can an omniscient God enter into creation not knowing the outcome?

Of course God knew the outcome, but God's foreknowledge does not cause the outcome, humans cause the outcome.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[Trailblazer]

Who are the righteous? Clearly, the righteous are those who have been given the righteousness of Christ through faith and (Holy Spirit) baptism.

The righteous are those who act righteously, as per Matthew 25:35-46. Faith alone does not make anyone righteous, deeds do.

If righteousness had been achieved under the Law then it would not have been necessary to send a Saviour, Jesus Christ. Christ is, according to scripture, the only man who has fulfilled the law.

I never said that righteousness was achieved under the Law, but that is no reason to discard the Law. The Law serves other purposes, it prevents evil acts.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[Redemptionsong]

If you do the will of the Father, you are honoring the Son. If someone loves their neighbor as themselves, even if their religion was "the wrong religion" according to some believers, they are doing the right thing and following the law of love that Jesus teaches, through many mouths in the world.

What does it mean to "hear my words"? Does that mean hearing someone read the Bible to them? Or can someone hear the voice of Spirit though any and all means available to them, such as through their own religions of birth?

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life

~jn. 5:24​

To "honor the Son" is to follow what he taught, even if they've never once in their lives heard of the Christian religion nor anything from the pages of its adopted scriptures. Paul himself says this very thing here:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

~Ro. 2:14​

Do you believe someone can be a follower of the Spirit of Love, technically a follower of the Christ already, as Christians understand that to be, without having any idea about Christian beliefs and doctrines? Didn't Jesus himself recognize genuine saving faith in non-Jews, and the "unsaved" according to the religionists of his day?

Why would Jesus train his disciples and send them out to preach the Gospel if people didn't need to know the Gospel?

Luke 24:47.'And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.'

Gentiles may do things required by the law, but it's not the law that saves. A Christian is saved by grace. This is what Paul preaches.

 

[Clara Tea]

The Hebrew scriptures portray God as Holy and without defect.

Deuteronomy 32:4. 'He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.'

The Greek New Testament tells us about Jesus Christ 'Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:' [1 Peter 2:22] The book of Hebrews adds that Jesus 'was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

The New Testament also tells us about the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father and Son. 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I [Jesus] will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'

We have, if one is to accept the words of scripture, a God who is Holy and perfect.

Does that not make us ALL'sinners'?

If we are all sinners, then critical reasoning in the absence of repentance and faith is not going to please God! Only faith will please God. As Paul said in Romans 14:23, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

Your thoughts, please.

The message of "the loving God" is that we will burn in hell for all eternity if we don't worship him. Is that free will or an ultimatum from a Mafia hit man?

 

[Clara Tea]

Why would Jesus train his disciples and send them out to preach the Gospel if people didn't need to know the Gospel?

Luke 24:47.'And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.'

Gentiles may do things required by the law, but it's not the law that saves. A Christian is saved by grace. This is what Paul preaches.

It's like God making a mosquito. . . it certainly doesn't help mankind, but there it is.

 

[Clara Tea]

You don't have to. You can all just submit to my view of right, wrong and human morality. I don't claim to be perfect, but...umm...
No, that's about it. I don't claim to be perfect.

God is not perfect and loving (Noah's flood). Man is made in God's image....imperfect, warmonger.

 

[Clara Tea]

That disqualifies every character in the Bible.

None of them had required any faith whatsoever according to the story lines.

I had faith that I could do the things that Jesus did. I may have modified my opinion when I took long walks on short piers. But the fishing was great.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I don't accept the words of any scripture and hence, there is no sin.

So every action is cool with you?
I suspect you believe there are such a thing as wrong actions.
Which is the definition of sin.

 

[Clara Tea]

I haven't sinned in nearly 20 years. I left it all behind when I left the church, the excessive guilt came to an end, and now sin just isn't a part of my life. It was what made that heavy clunking sound when I said "no more" and took my first step away from it.

Then you are overdue for a night out.

God said that we shouldn't covet our neighbor's wives (yet he had a baby with Mary while Mary was married to Joseph).

God said that we should not kill, yet he flooded the world (Noah).

Do as I say, not as I do? Shouldn't God lead by example?

Man is made in God's image....God is a over-sexed hot headed mass murderer. Shouldn't we try to forgive God, rather than the other way around?

Our "loving" God tells us that we will burn in hell for all eternity if we don't worship him. Is that really what love is about? Or, is that a threat from a Mafia hit man?

 

[Clara Tea]

That's true.

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

Why not please someone who doesn't exist?

 

[Clara Tea]

So every action is cool with you?
I suspect you believe there are such a thing as wrong actions.
Which is the definition of sin.

In Spanish, "sin" means "without." So, one would be without sin.

 

[Wildswanderer]

God said that we shouldn't covet our neighbor's wives (yet he had a baby with Mary while Mary was married to Joseph).

Most bizarre interpretation ever award!

God didn't have sexual relations with Mary. God isn't a sexual being. He's spirit.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Two questions:

What definition of 'sin' are we using?

Can we sin by doing things the bible tells us God has done?

In 1 John 3:4 it says, 'sin is the transgression of the law'. The law of Moses was about deeds, therefore, a righteous man did everything required by the law.

In 1 John 5:17, it says 'all unrighteousness is sin', which corresponds to the view expressed above.

This definition of sin is complicated by Jesus, who wanted it known that 'except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.' [Matthew 5:19] Jesus then proceeds to explain how an inward sin of the heart is evidence of imperfection. His final words on the subject are, 'Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.'

From what Jesus says, 'righteousness' should be viewed as perfection. Therefore, sin is falling short of the perfection of God.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I never said that this was a test and God expects anyone to be free of sin. Nobody is fully spiritual or fully material, we all exist along a continuum, although some people are more spiritual than others. My point was that we have a choice and we can choose between our two natures because we have free will.

It just really does not look that way. We may have a degree of will, but science is revealing more and more that our will is not free like we think. Even some of the most basic concepts of psychology, such as classical conditioning and operative conditioning, demonstrate we can even be subjected to and aligned to the will of another.

 

[Redemptionsong]

The righteous are those who act righteously, as per Matthew 25:35-46. Faith alone does not make anyone righteous, deeds do.

I never said that righteousness was achieved under the Law, but that is no reason to discard the Law. The Law serves other purposes, it prevents evil acts.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

The clear teaching of the New Testament is that 'works' must follow faith. Under the Law, works, or deeds, determined righteousness.

The difference between righteousness under the law and righteousness under grace is the difference between own's own righteousness, and the righteousness of Christ. Christians live by faith in the righteousness of Christ, not their own righteousness.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Of course God knew the outcome, but God's foreknowledge does not cause the outcome, humans cause the outcome.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

I have to disagree.

If God did not intervene in human affairs to bring salvation there would not be a positive end for anyone! It is God that saves, not man.