ALL have sinned.

[Shadow Wolf]

I haven't sinned in nearly 20 years. I left it all behind when I left the church, the excessive guilt came to an end, and now sin just isn't a part of my life. It was what made that heavy clunking sound when I said "no more" and took my first step away from it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The Hebrew scriptures portray God as Holy and without defect.

Deuteronomy 32:4. 'He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.'

The Greek New Testament tells us about Jesus Christ 'Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:' [1 Peter 2:22] The book of Hebrews adds that Jesus 'was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.'

The New Testament also tells us about the Holy Spirit, which proceeds from the Father and Son. 'But when the Comforter is come, whom I [Jesus] will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:'

We have, if one is to accept the words of scripture, a God who is Holy and perfect.

Does that not make us ALL'sinners'?

If we are all sinners, then critical reasoning in the absence of repentance and faith is not going to please God! Only faith will please God. As Paul said in Romans 14:23, 'whatsoever is not of faith is sin.'

Your thoughts, please.

This is what they're talking about when they say that religion breaks your leg to sell you a crutch.

 

[ratiocinator]

IMO, God created us with the freedom to love. Love without freedom is not true love.

Leaving aside the issue of 'freedom' in this context (which is another can of worms) what has this got to do with the fact that if we are all sinners that's got to be down to the creator?

 

[ratiocinator]

No, that is not a design flaw because we were not born as sinners, we chose to sin after we were born because God gave us free will to choose. We all have two natures, a higher spiritual nature and a lower material nature, and we have free will so we can choose to follow either of those natures.

Sorry but if 100% of people fail a test, then the test is inappropriate to the people you are testing. If there was a genuine choice, at least some would take the choice and never sin. Perhaps god should have thought twice about the giving us the "lower material nature".

Regardless, holding people to a standard nobody meets is unjust and cruel.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sorry but if 100% of people fail a test, then the test is inappropriate to the people you are testing. If there was a genuine choice, at least some would take the choice and never sin. Perhaps god should have thought twice about the giving us the "lower material nature".

Regardless, holding people to a standard nobody meets is unjust and cruel.

Especially considering the myriad influences beyond our control. Abuse, for example, molds children in predictable ways. It's not so much a choice, but malfunctions in development due to detrimental environments. This includes partaking in behaviors that many Christians (and so on) consider sin. Amd it's very difficult to correct behaviors when you think you're in control and making decisions freely but just aren't.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry but if 100% of people fail a test, then the test is inappropriate to the people you are testing. If there was a genuine choice, at least some would take the choice and never sin. Perhaps god should have thought twice about the giving us the "lower material nature".

Regardless, holding people to a standard nobody meets is unjust and cruel.

I never said that this was a test and God expects anyone to be free of sin. Nobody is fully spiritual or fully material, we all exist along a continuum, although some people are more spiritual than others. My point was that we have a choice and we can choose between our two natures because we have free will.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jesus said "thou shall not judge", what is so difficult about that? Seems very simple and easy to me

I am fine if you decide to continue to judge, but do NOT try to take me with you

Did l make this prophecy?

The one God judges us all. Only the omniscience of God allows for his judgment to be the truth.

 

[Redemptionsong]

If someone places faith in God, in however they understand God (or no-God if they see the Ultimate Reality as non-theistic), then they are in effect placing faith in Jesus. God may be known by other names to them. But it is always the Spirit of God that lifts and supports them and guides them, even if they understand that theologically different than Evangelicals Christians do. God doesn't care about having 'correct' theology, whatever that may be.

I like what Jesus says. "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother". Amen. That means everyone in the whole word, not just those who joined a Christian religious branch.

To an extent l agree. But can you do the will of the Father without honouring the Son?

 

[Redemptionsong]

The Bible tells a story. Until good empirical evidence tethers that story to anything real in objective reality, then I'm going to provisionally conclude its miraculous claims are imaginary, just like in all other such stories.

On a conceptual level, any god that is "without defect" would by definition be impervious to feeling offended by anything humans do. It would be perfectly unflappable, and its power would enable it to solve any and all problems without resorting to violence or the imposition of suffering on other minds. Why would a perfect god be so concerned with virginity, and land acquisition, and obedience? Why does this god need something to bleed and suffer before he can forgive anyone? I don't need to punch one of my children before I can forgive someone who has wronged me. Am I more powerful and more moral than this god?

By definition, the god of the Old Testament is defective. I could easily conceive of a god infinitely superior to it every way. Frankly, the OT god encapsulates everything I think of as "evil." There is no evidence it exists, fortunately, and it has a rather uncanny resemblance to the eager fantasy of a bronze age warlord who enjoys harems, conquest, and unquestioning followers. Almost as if that's the sort of person who invented it.

Well, l disagree with your assessment. It strikes me that you blame God for the wrongs of man.

There is both judgment and mercy to be found in God. It is a matter of justice when disobedience is punished by death. God gives life and He is able to take it away. Who are you to say that God is not just?

It follows that a God who delivers justice on his own creation is also the one who can provide mercy.

As for sacrifice, this is a theme contained throughout the Bible.

I suggest that the blood spilled for you by Jesus was a just payment for the sin of all mankind. As by one man, death entered the world, so by one man's acceptable sacrifice we have the opportunity of eternal life.

God knew that some would accept Jesus, and others reject him.

 

[stvdv]

Did l make this prophecy?

The one God judges us all. Only the omniscience of God allows for his judgment to be the truth.

Yes, yes, yes

 

[ChristineM]

It is not just a religious concept

Perhaps you should look up the dictionary definition.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Leaving aside the issue of 'freedom' in this context (which is another can of worms) what has this got to do with the fact that if we are all sinners that's got to be down to the creator?

The standard of perfection is God. God says that we can only meet his standards through the faith of Christ.

Men have been given the chance to demonstrate their righteousness through the law, but have failed.

 

[Redemptionsong]

This is what they're talking about when they say that religion breaks your leg to sell you a crutch.

The broken leg was not the fault of the Church. The heart of man, seeking autonomy from God, is the root of evil.

That God should offer a way out of the mess that we created should be seen as an act of mercy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The broken leg was not the fault of the Church.

Sure it wasn't.

The heart of man, seeking autonomy from God, is the root of evil.

That God should offer a way out of the mess that we created should be seen as an act of mercy.

There it is again. That's what I was talking about.

 

[Ashoka]

That God should offer a way out of the mess that we created should be seen as an act of mercy.

You mean the mess he created.

 

[ratiocinator]

The standard of perfection is God. God says that we can only meet his standards through the faith of Christ.

Men have been given the chance to demonstrate their righteousness through the law, but have failed.

The god you describe seems very far from perfect to me. Doesn't seem like it even has any sense of fairness or justice at all. If your god applies a standard which nobody lives up to, that is the fault of said god. It can't be a genuine choice for people otherwise some would make it. This god of which you speak, should either have made better people or used a more appropriate standard to judge them by.

Requiring faith as a way out, just makes things worse. Faith without evidence is irrational.

 

[blü 2]

Does that not make us ALL'sinners'?

Two questions:

What definition of 'sin' are we using?

Can we sin by doing things the bible tells us God has done?

 

[Shakeel]

Perhaps you should look up the dictionary definition.

I was about to say that to you. Then I thought you might think of doing it yourself and that actually I don't care what you think.

 

[ChristineM]

I was about to say that to you. Then I thought you might think of doing it yourself and that actually I don't care what you think.

Ok, if you insist

Oxford Languages

Sin : an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

Bold and highlight are mine

 

[Windwalker]

To an extent l agree. But can you do the will of the Father without honouring the Son?

If you do the will of the Father, you are honoring the Son. If someone loves their neighbor as themselves, even if their religion was "the wrong religion" according to some believers, they are doing the right thing and following the law of love that Jesus teaches, through many mouths in the world.

What does it mean to "hear my words"? Does that mean hearing someone read the Bible to them? Or can someone hear the voice of Spirit though any and all means available to them, such as through their own religions of birth?

Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life

~jn. 5:24​

To "honor the Son" is to follow what he taught, even if they've never once in their lives heard of the Christian religion nor anything from the pages of its adopted scriptures. Paul himself says this very thing here:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

~Ro. 2:14​

Do you believe someone can be a follower of the Spirit of Love, technically a follower of the Christ already, as Christians understand that to be, without having any idea about Christian beliefs and doctrines? Didn't Jesus himself recognize genuine saving faith in non-Jews, and the "unsaved" according to the religionists of his day?