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"What Jesus REALLY meant was ...."

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Combined in triangles to form matter and energy? Cool story, just needs evidence. Interjecting consciousness into quantum fields or excited parts of the field (or does the whole field have it as well?) sounds made up.

Why would this result in higher life forms? Evolution doesn't trend toward higher life forms it trends towards whatever can survive and adapt better.
Indeed, but there is a trend that during the evolution of life there is also an increase in the relative amount of organisms with higher forms of consciousness. The species with the highest forms of consciousness (at present) such as dolphins, dogs, primates and elephants did not yet exist in the past. This increase in consciousness has been a process since the beginning of life. Of course the creatures with much less consciousness also continued to exist as well.

If you believe in reincarnation the soul evolves from "lower" life forms up to the level of human beings with the highest amount of consciousness (or higher life forms on other planets). The increase in consciousness is due to evolution but seen from the individual who reincarnates it is due to clash (obstacles or hardships in life) and cohesion within the soul.

Human beings also increase their consciousness through clash and cohesion but due to spiritual practices they may speed up this proces (inviting more clash and cohesion in less time). Animals are not yet able to do spiritual practices so they evolve slower by following the natural speed. In the case of animals who stay close to humans their speed is increased somewhat also by the influence of human contact and behaviour on them. So for pets, staying together closely with humans is somewhat like a spiritual practice to them (we are their "gods").
 
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Muffled

Jesus in me
Agreed ( yes we all know you meant chapter 15). Barry only quotes that, saying it’s the Gospel in a nutshell, but believing that passage full heartedly isn’t enough to make LDS Christians actually Christians (according to Barry).

I was told I wasn't one because of my unorthodox view of the Trinity. I wonder if the person thought the only person who could be a Christian was someone who held his particular orthodox view.

I believe my church recognizes anyone who has received Jesus as Lord and Savior. I believe that I qualify on that basis.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
LDS Christians believe in Jesus Christ, have faith (trust) in Him.

Why then do you deny they are saved?

I believe the Muslims say the same thing then deny that He said what He said. What they mean is they are willing to accept the small amount of things said about Jesus in the Qu'ran and not even there because there is a verse that says He is God there and they deny that verse.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Indeed, but there is a trend that during the evolution of life there is also an increase in the relative amount of organisms with higher forms of consciousness. The species with the highest forms of consciousness (at present) such as dolphins, dogs, primates and elephants did not yet exist in the past. This increase in consciousness has been a process since the beginning of life. Of course the creatures with much less consciousness also continued to exist as well.

Not really. Reptiles and fish were dominant for hundreds of millions of years. There was no trend to "higher" forms as you put it.
Climate stressors forced mammals to become dominant - global changes and an asteroid impact.
Evolution trends towards survival. Many species returned to sea creatures. Some grow smaller. Whatever favors eating, reproducing and surviving.



I
If you believe in reincarnation the soul evolves from "lower" life forms up to the level of human beings with the highest amount of consciousness (or higher life forms on other planets). The increase in consciousness is due to evolution but seen from the individual who reincarnates it is due to clash (obstacles or hardships in life) and cohesion within the soul.

Human beings also increase their consciousness through clash and cohesion but due to spiritual practices they may speed up this proces (inviting more clash and cohesion in less time). Animals are not yet able to do spiritual practices so they evolve slower by following the natural speed. In the case of animals who stay close to humans their speed is increased somewhat also by the influence of human contact and behaviour on them. So for pets, staying together closely with humans is somewhat like a spiritual practice to them (we are their "gods").

When there is evidence for reincarnation I will believe in reincarnation. There isn't even evidence for consciousness after death or outside of the physical body. Anecdotal ghost stories are not good evidence. NDE experiences are looked at by neurologists but no conclusive evidence is available.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I believe that is a fantasy.


We know that the Persians predicted a virgin world savior in 1600BC. This is from the work of Dr Mary Boyce who lived in Iran for years to study the religion proper.
Zoroastrians: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices by Mary Boyce
This quote is from pg 29 of her book:

"Zoroastrianism exalts an uncreated and benevolent deity of wisdom, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura_Mazda']Ahura Mazda
(Wise Lord), as its supreme being.[4] The unique historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism,[5][6][7][8][9] messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] the Baháʼí Faith, and Buddhism.[12]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism#cite_note-12
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism#cite_note-12
We also have good scholarship on at least 6 other dying/rising savior demigod religions that pre-date Christianity.
Zoroastrianisn is the primary religion of the Persians who occupied the Israelites during the 2nd temple period for several centuries.

At 3:18 Hebrew Bible Professor F.S. explains this is the point where the Israelites began re-working the OT to focus on monotheism as well as adding in the new ideas from the Persian religion.
They didn't just happen to suddenly comeup with all the same ideas just as the Persians began occupying them?
That would truly be a fantasy (like most apologetics).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrDT0gBfewk&t=205s


But here is some more scholarship on the 2nd temple period, demonstrating that concepts of souls who go back to heaven, resurrection for everyone at the end of the world and so on, were NOT BELIEFS IN JUDAISM.
They were borrowed by religious leaders who then sort of did a "hey I have gotten a revelation , we too will go to heaven it turns out....!"
These are stories and myths, created by people.


Second Temple Judaism
During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[48] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[48] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[49][50] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[50] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[50] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[50] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[48] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
[/URL]
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Not really.
Yes, there was and there still is that trend and not only on planet earth.
For a long time there were only bacteria and such primitive life forms on earth.
Fish have a lower type of consciousness than amphibia but higher than worms and octopus a much higher one than slugs.

During the time of our many lives we migrated from very primitive life forms such as bacteria and fungi into higher plants, primitive animals and more recently into animals like apes, dogs, dolphins and elephants until we finally got into our first culturally simple human body.

Why is someone born as Rembrandt van Rijn and another as member of a tribe in the rain forest? It has to do with our karma which we developed during many of our previous lives.
Why is it much harder to kill a dog than a mosquito? It is the feeling of the difference in consciousness in the animals that gives you the difference in approach.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Yes, there was and there still is that trend and not only on planet earth.
For a long time there were only bacteria and such primitive life forms on earth.
Fish have a lower type of consciousness than amphibia but higher than worms and octopus a much higher one than slugs.

During the time of our many lives we migrated from very primitive life forms such as bacteria and fungi into higher plants, primitive animals and more recently into animals like apes, dogs, dolphins and elephants until we finally got into our first culturally simple human body.

It a nice idea. Do you have evidence that not only do people have souls but that they re-incarnate into different animals through time?
This sounds like something from a fictional story.

Why is someone born as Rembrandt van Rijn and another as member of a tribe in the rain forest? It has to do with our karma which we developed during many of our previous lives.

Sounds like more arbitrary fiction. Until this magic "karma" force can be isolated and shown to follow an individual from separate lives then I'm assuming it's all made up stuff.




Why is it much harder to kill a dog than a mosquito? It is the feeling of the difference in consciousness in the animals that gives you the difference in approach.


Uh, because a dog is one thousand times larger and has teeth and aggression to protect itself from other mammals? While a mosquito can be killed with a flick of your finger?
You mean Besides all that.......? So you take out all those ridiculously obvious facts then insert that the actual reason is the consciousness?
That is whole cloth ad-hoc and simply too much fictive nonsense.
If you have some evidence then great but this is all too much. Because ancient people comeup with weird ideas doesn't mean they are true at all.
All these same people also came up with reasons for illness and it was always posession by evil spirit. These theologies from the Bronze Age are doing no good today.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
I was told I wasn't one because of my unorthodox view of the Trinity. I wonder if the person thought the only person who could be a Christian was someone who held his particular orthodox view.

I believe my church recognizes anyone who has received Jesus as Lord and Savior. I believe that I qualify on that basis.
Hi Muffled, can you explain to me what the difference is between Jesus and God.

I mean, you seem to be saying that the two are the same entity yet you distinguish between them.

Two indistinguishable entities have no distinctions?
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member


The other dying/rising saviour demigods have been shown to not resemble Jesus as all and it is with only a stretch of the imagination that some (usually not scholars) say that they do resemble Jesus.

Zoroastrianisn is the primary religion of the Persians who occupied the Israelites during the 2nd temple period for several centuries.
At 3:18 Hebrew Bible Professor F.S. explains this is the point where the Israelites began re-working the OT to focus on monotheism as well as adding in the new ideas from the Persian religion.
They didn't just happen to suddenly comeup with all the same ideas just as the Persians began occupying them?
That would truly be a fantasy (like most apologetics).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrDT0gBfewk&t=205s

T
hat idea of the Jews changing their scriptures while in Babylon is just that, an idea. The Hebrew scriptures as we read them, had monotheism from the time of Moses even if many Jews liked to follow the gods of the nations in Canaan.
Actually Zarathustra lived it seem between 1500 and 1000 BC and at the earliest was contemporary with Moses even though they would not have met. The teachings of Zoroastrianism weren't written down until the 2nd century BC.
Do you think Zarathustra had a divine vision?

But here is some more scholarship on the 2nd temple period, demonstrating that concepts of souls who go back to heaven, resurrection for everyone at the end of the world and so on, were NOT BELIEFS IN JUDAISM.


Job is considered a very old book of the Hebrew scriptures and it contains the idea of resurrection, but to the earth.
Job 19:25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Some Jews may have believed we came from heaven to earth but I think that would be a minority and it is not in the Bible.
An immortal soul does not seem to be in the Bible either but it is easy to see where people get that from without resorting to it being copied from other religions.
It seems to always be the Jews and Christians who have copied their beliefs from other religions.
This copying business no doubt happened but if a religion is true then it did not, but anthropology uses the same naturalistic methodology as science and so the truth of a religion is not considered when deciding where the religion got it's beliefs.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Indeed, but there is a trend that during the evolution of life there is also an increase in the relative amount of organisms with higher forms of consciousness. The species with the highest forms of consciousness (at present) such as dolphins, dogs, primates and elephants did not yet exist in the past. This increase in consciousness has been a process since the beginning of life. Of course the creatures with much less consciousness also continued to exist as well.
Evolution generally favours less complex life.

Large, complex life is an outlier. We humans just care about that thin tail on the distribution because we're in it.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
what we see in other religions and philosphies is a claim on Jesus . As a Christian we of course have our differences on certain verses and doctrines . But this is within christianity. We see the issue is down to our free will and different opinions and such . But imagine to our horror ,when we see other religions who make a claim on Jesus and what he taught and they have not the same world view . Its hard enough within the same worldview , But what we see is all these claims from ' outside ' and how radical theses claims are .
Here are a few
Mormonsim teaches Jesus went to America to preach to the natives .

Jehovah's_Witnesses teach that Jesus is micheal the Arch Angel .

Hinduism and Buddhism see Jesus as a spiritual guide of sorts . An enlightened one.

Islam. He's a prophet. Not the Son of God and that he certainly didn't die on a cross or resurrect.

We could name countless religions who have a claim on Jesus . Its always a different Jesus than the Jesus of the bible . Of course this shows he impacted the world and not Just in Jerusalem, but the whole world . But we have radically different claims on him .

Thoughts?

I believe there is the Urantia Book: Jesus is considered the human incarnation of "Michael of Nebadon," Wikipedia
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Every human beings who believe in Christianity or other religious teachings will have their own understanding of the different spiritual teachers, or about if they were enlighten or not, from God or not.
It will be wrong of me to claim i know who Jesus truly was, and no matter what i personally believe, it should not make a christian person fear my words, because since i am not Christian my thoughts on Christianity and the role of Jesus, or even if Jesus truly are Gods son will probably be wrong anyway.

I believe you get a pass because at least you recognize that from your background it isn't as easy as it looks.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I believe there is no evidence to support that view.
The Bible itself is evidence of this, IMO. The Jesus story snowballs in a way that is difficult to reconcile with the story being based in fact:

In the oldest references to Jesus (the early Epistles), there are no details of Jesus's life at all.

In the earliest Gospel (Mark), Jesus's miracles are secret things that only a few people see. What Mark describes is something so hidden and secret that it's plausible that someone living at the time wouldn't have noticed.

It's only by the time that any potential eyewitnesses are dead that the stories of grandiose, public miracles witnessed by multitudes emerge (e.g. in John).

With stories based in fact, the reverse happens: details get lost, not added, as we get further in time from the events.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member


1st century apologist Justin Martyr already admitted (Dialogue 69) that Jesus was like all the older savior demigods. He just says this one is better.
Saying this - "(usually not scholars)" shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
The article I'm sourcing is information from a 700pg Jesus historicity study, peer-reviewed. The article uses only historical original sources from clay tablets and other finds (all sourced).
The information about Hellenism is from Briticannica.

I'm ONLY using information from PhD historians that have peer reviewed work. why would I just google something and think it's true? This is mind blowing that you think this? The linked article from Carrier has much more information about dying/rising savior demigods.

The point is the borrowed myths were demigods who died, rose, got followers into an afterlife and so on. Each version is going to be different depending on the religion?

Dying/rising savior gods were very common before Jesus and are originally a Hellenistic creation. Petra Pakken details the trend of most religions in that region adopt Hellenism into their religions in The Hellenization of Early Religion. Yes, a scholar.




Some similarities:



    • They are personal salvation cults (often evolved from prior agricultural cults).
    • They guarantee the individual a good place in the afterlife (a concern not present in most prior forms of religion).
    • They are cults you join membership with (as opposed to just being open communal religions).
    • They enact a fictive kin group (members are now all brothers and sisters).
    • They are joined through baptism (the use of water-contact rituals to effect an initiation).
    • They are maintained through communion (regular sacred meals enacting the presence of the god).
    • They involved secret teachings reserved only to members (and some only to members of certain rank).
    • They used a common vocabulary to identify all these concepts and their role.
    • They are syncretistic (they modify this common package of ideas with concepts distinctive of the adopting culture).
    • They are mono- or henotheistic (they preach a supreme god by whom and to whom all other divinities are created and subordinate).
    • They are individualistic (they relate primarily to salvation of the individual, not the community).
    • And they are cosmopolitan (they intentionally cross social borders of race, culture, nation, wealth, or even gender).



    • They are all “savior gods” (literally so-named and so-called).
    • They are usually the “son” of a supreme God (or occasionally “daughter”).
    • They all undergo a “passion” (a “suffering” or “struggle,” literally the same word in Greek, patheôn).
    • That passion is often, but not always, a death (followed by a resurrection and triumph).
    • By which “passion” (of whatever kind) they obtain victory over death.
    • Which victory they then share with their followers (typically through baptism and communion).
    • They also all have stories about them set in human history on earth.
    • Yet so far as we can tell, none of them ever actually existed."

Jesus is a JEWISH version. Every savior takes on the traits of the religion that it came from. What matters is that these stories only happened in this region and at this time. They all had deaths and resurrections that allowed followers into an afterlife. As well as the list above.




Hellenism influenced the Israelite myths during the occupation.
Hellenistic religion - History


"Oriental cults underwent their most significant expansion westward during this period. Particularly noticeable was the success of a variety of prophets, magicians, and healers—e.g., John the Baptist, Jesus, Simon Magus, Apollonius of Tyana, Alexander the Paphlagonian, and the cult of the healer Asclepius—..
Hellenistic people saw themselves as exiles from their true home, the Beyond, and they sought for ways to return. They strove to regain their place in the world beyond this world where they truly belonged, to encounter the god beyond the god of this world who was the true god, and to awaken that part of themselves (their souls or spirits) that had descended from the heavenly realm by stripping off their bodies, which belonged to this world."


Yes it happened to Yahweh also -

"Other deities, who had previously been associated with national destiny (e.g., Zeus, Yahweh, and Isis), were raised to the status of transcendent, supreme deities whose power and ontological status (relating to being or existence) far surpassed the other gods, "

"Finally, the central religious literature of both traditions—the Jewish Talmud (an authoritative compendium of law, lore, and interpretation), the New Testament, and the later patristic literature of the early Church Fathers—are characteristic Hellenistic documents both in form and content."


And here are the origins of your savior gods-

"his process was carried further through the identification of the experiences of the soul that was to be saved with the vicissitudes of a divine but fallen soul, which had to be redeemed by cultic activity and divine intervention. This view is illustrated in the concept of the paradoxical figure of the saved saviour, salvator salvandus."


hat idea of the Jews changing their scriptures while in Babylon is just that, an idea. The Hebrew scriptures as we read them, had monotheism from the time of Moses even if many Jews liked to follow the gods of the nations in Canaan.

Early scriptures have Yahweh clearly only as a national God. Moses is a myth.
"Generally Moses is seen as a legendary figure, whilst retaining the possibility that Moses or a Moses-like figure existed in the 13th century BCE'

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses

The tales about Moses life are also found in older Egyptian myths.

“Moses himself has about as much historic reality as King Arthur,” British archaeologist Philip Davies famously concluded. A more moderate conclusion comes from the historian Tom Holland: “The likelihood that the biblical story records an actual event is fairly small.”

The leading biblical archeologists like William Denver agree.


Actually Zarathustra lived it seem between 1500 and 1000 BC and at the earliest was contemporary with Moses even though they would not have met. The teachings of Zoroastrianism weren't written down until the 2nd century BC.

Moses wasn't influenced by the Persians (Moses is a myth). The Persian influence was the 2nd Temple Period??? You are off track here? The Persians occupied the Israelites during this time?
The oldest possible date for Israelites are 1200. Genesis was written way after that using myths to construct a narrative for an emerging culture.


Religion, Identity and the Origins of Ancient Israel


Religion Identity and the Origins of Ancient Israel.



KL Sparks, PhD Hebrew Bible, Baptist Pastor,


As a rule, modern scholars do not believe that the Bible’s account of early Israel’s history provides a wholly accurate portrait of Israels origins. One reason for this is that the earliest part of Israel’s history in Genesis is now regarded as something other than a work of modern history. It’s primary author was at best an ancient historian (if a historian at all) who lived long after the events he narrated, and who drew freely from sources that were not historical (legends and theological stories), he was more concerned with theology than with the modern quest to learn “what actually happened” (Van Seters 1992; Sparks 2002 pp. 37-71)

As a result, the stories about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph are better understood as windows into Israelite history than as portraits of Israel's early history. Almost as problematic as an historical source is the book of Exodus. This book tells the story of Israel's long enslavement in Egypt and of it's eventual emancipation; it also narrates the first stages of Israel's migration from Egypt toward Palestine. The trouble with this story, historically speaking, is that the Egyptians seem to have known nothing of these great events in which thousands of Israelite slaves were released from Egypt because of a series of natural (or supernatural( catastrophes - supposedly including the death of every firstborn Egyptian man and beast.


Do you think Zarathustra had a divine vision?

Every religion ever is some dude who claims a divine vision. Islam/angel Gabrielle, Mormonism/angel Maroni, Hinduism/Krishna, Cargo Cults/John From and on and on........and yet they all use similar myths.
 
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joelr

Well-Known Member
Job is considered a very old book of the Hebrew scriptures and it contains the idea of resurrection, but to the earth.

Job 19:25 I know that my redeemer lives,

and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

26 And after my skin has been destroyed,

yet in my flesh I will see God;

27 I myself will see him

with my own eyes—I, and not another.

How my heart yearns within me!


Job has an older Babylonian counterpart. It's all borrowed mythology. The concept that everyone resurrects was a concept that happened after the 2nd Temple Period. There is no doubt that the Persian religion influenced Judaism. This isn't debated in history at all? Satan changed to the Persian version and many other concepts were used.

"The unique historical features of Zoroastrianism, such as its monotheism,[5][6][7][8][9] messianism, judgment after death, heaven and hell, and free will may have influenced other religious and philosophical systems, including Second Temple Judaism, Gnosticism, Greek philosophy,[10] Christianity, Islam,[11] the Baháʼí Faith."


"During the Second Temple Period, when Jews were living in the Achaemenid Empire, Judaism was heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism, the religion of the Achaemenids.[27][8][28] Jewish conceptions of Satan were impacted by Angra Mainyu,[8][29] the Zoroastrian god of evil, darkness, and ignorance.[8"


"The idea of Satan as an opponent of God and a purely evil figure seems to have taken root in Jewish pseudepigrapha during the Second Temple Period,[31] particularly in the apocalypses.["


Some Jews may have believed we came from heaven to earth but I think that would be a minority and it is not in the Bible.

An immortal soul does not seem to be in the Bible either but it is easy to see where people get that from without resorting to it being copied from other religions.

It seems to always be the Jews and Christians who have copied their beliefs from other religions.

This copying business no doubt happened but if a religion is true then it did not, but anthropology uses the same naturalistic methodology as science and so the truth of a religion is not considered when deciding where the religion got it's beliefs.



Exactly, it's not in the Bible. It came later from Hellenism and Persian beliefs.

All religions used religious syncretism. The word was invented to not disturb fundamentalists. Judaism is a mix of Mesopotamian myths and then like all other religions it became Hellenized.

This isn't a debate. It's just fundamentalists who can't deal with it but in historicity there isn't any doubt. This religion is a combination of myths, like all others. There is the same chance that this is real as Zues and Heracles being real.


In fact the Wiki page pretty much says this in the Genesis page:


"modern scholars, especially from the 19th century onward, see them as being written hundreds of years after Moses is supposed to have lived, in the 6th and 5th centuries BC.[7][8] Based on scientific interpretation of archaeological, genetic, and linguistic evidence, most scholars consider Genesis to be primarily mythological rather than historical. Biblical literalists do interpret it as actual history, giving rise to beliefs such as Young Earth creationism."


That's Genesis but the sentiment exists about all scripture in historicity.





This copying business no doubt happened but if a religion is true then it did not,


So a God actually one time really did show up, except he did all the same things that other myths have their Gods do? But at first he only copied older myths. Then just as the Persians and Greeks occupied Israel then this God decided to use those myths, exactly like the others? With writing that looks like mythology, uses ring structure, triadic inversions and all common markers of myth? Makes it look suspiciously like Mark just took Pauls letters, OT lines and some other fiction and used that to make an earthly narrative? And there is such awful evidence that no historian believes it. Bart Ehrman was actually a fundamentalist who saw that it was simply not real. This God decided to make it look like a myth, leave no evidence that stand up to any standards, fail to say or give any wisdom beyond what humans already knew? Stand behind Israelite cosmology as if it's accurate...there is as much chance that Lord Krishna is real.

What makes sense is that this is a myth, like all other religions you already don't believe.


"he truth of a religion is not considered when deciding where the religion got it's beliefs"

This is more of a personal statement. If you want to hand wave comparative religious studies off then you have that right. All evidence should be considered but I am aware of emotional attachment to a belief which can cause confirmation bias. I have done it.

Roswell is a unique story, it's still fiction until someone proves it's true. So are religions.

No supernatural tale should be believed by rational people who care about what is true until it is demonstrated. But the amount of evidence that this religion is borrowed mythology and is exactly as real as any other is vast. We also know that personal experience and fuzzy feelings can be created simply by belief that a deity is real. It has no bearing on if it's true.
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Muffled said:
I was told I wasn't one because of my unorthodox view of the Trinity. I wonder if the person thought the only person who could be a Christian was someone who held his particular orthodox view.

I believe my church recognizes anyone who has received Jesus as Lord and Savior. I believe that I qualify on that basis.
Hi Muffled, can you explain to me what the difference is between Jesus and God.

I mean, you seem to be saying that the two are the same entity yet you distinguish between them.

Two indistinguishable entities have no distinctions?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You don't think the author had intent and that intent is discoverable?
That intent can be speculated upon, given critical clues, and that speculation can come close to a “discovery” of what the author intended, but the speculations still have a margin of error.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I think it doesn't matter how one perceives Jesus based on one's religion, spiritual path, or culture. What matters is what he said and taught.

I'd say what matters is what one can support with sufficient objective evidence, but then I'm an atheist.
 
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