Which "afterlife" stories makes the most sense?

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: The soul is immaterial, but that does not mean it is imaginary, unless you are a materialist who believes that everything that exists is material.

What else can it be, specifically?

The soul is the human spirit that distinguishes man from the animal.
Working through the body/brain/mind, the soul does the following.......

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.” Some Answered Questions, p. 208

Read more: 55: SOUL, SPIRIT AND MIND

Trailblazer said: The soul needs a physical body by which to express itself. While we are alive in the physical world, the soul works through the body and brain.

I don't understand the answer. Why does the soul want to express itself physically at all?

While we are physical beings living on earth the soul has to express itself through our physical bodies, there is no other way.

Trailblazer said: The soul perceives its surroundings and expresses itself through a spiritual body after our physical body dies.

That still begs the question why it bothered to become physical in the first place.

The soul never ‘became physical.’ The soul was always immaterial. The soul associated itself with the physical body in order to allow us to function in a physical body because that is how we function in the physical world.

Trailblazer said: The soul continues to function during unconsciousness and after the brain dies.

But how do these things shut the soul out?

The soul is never shut out but its power can be diminished by physical maladies (see explanation below).

Trailblazer said: The soul does not rely upon the brain for consciousness, the brain relies upon the soul, so the soul is nit an intruder.

So it's the soul that gets drunk, knocked unconscious, demented, is affected by encephalitis, then?

No, the soul itself remains unaffected by any physical maladies.

Actually, an atheist friend in another forum asked me these questions years ago in reference to a family member who had Alzheimer’s disease and I wrote the following in order to explain the soul to her. It might also explain some other questions you had.

Every human being has a soul. The soul is what animates the brain and allows the brain to function, but the soul has to work through the brain while we are live in a physical body in order for us to be able to think intelligently.

Those who have brain dysfunctions still have a soul but the soul is hindered from fully expressing itself because the brain damage interferes with the soul’s functioning. So in the case of Alzheimer’s disease we cannot see the personality of the person express itself, but it is still there, since the soul is the person himself, thus the personality. When that person dies and his soul is freed from the physical body, he will no longer be affected by that brain damage since he will no longer have a brain to hinder the soul from functioning, so the soul will be free to express itself and the personality will be seen.

If someone did not believe there was a soul, they might think that an Alzheimer’s patient had no personality, but the Baha’i belief is that the soul is hidden as if under a bushel unable to express itself, because of the brain disease which interposes itself in between the soul and the body.

To recap what I said before, your soul is responsible for consciousness, but while you are alive in a body, your soul works through the brain. The soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself in various ways. The soul is responsible for the mind, senses and emotions as well as physical sensations, but these are expressed through the body. When the brain is damaged hindrances interpose themselves between the soul and the body and cause physical illness. The body is affected but the soul remains unaffected.

The soul is like the light of the lamp. An external object may interfere with its brightness, but the light itself continues to shine. Or think about the soul as the sun above the clouds. The clouds are simply preventing us from seeing the sunshine, but the sun is shining just as brightly nevertheless.

Every illness afflicting the body of man is an impediment that prevents the soul from manifesting its inherent might and power. When the soul leaves the body, however, it will be unaffected by any bodily ailments and it will be able to fully manifest its power.

“Know thou that the soul of man is exalted above, and is independent of all infirmities of body or mind. That a sick person showeth signs of weakness is due to the hindrances that interpose themselves between his soul and his body, for the soul itself remaineth unaffected by any bodily ailments.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 153-154

The entire passage is on this link: Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, LXXX

Trailblazer said: The soul comes into being at the moment of conception and it animates the body and gives it life. The soul determines human behavior by working through the brain and mind while we are alive in a physical body.

And yet that's all much more simply explained by the materialist view ─ with much less of a gap between the claim and the evidence.

I believe that the truth matters so if we have a soul that is integral to our life in this world it is good to be aware of that.

Moreover, even if you can explain life in this world with a purely materialist view, that view cannot explain how all of who we are, the sum total of our personality, can have continued existence in another realm after our physical body dies. I know that is not a belief you hold because you cannot get past certain obstacles, but what if it is true? Would you not want to see your wife and other family members and friends again?

Trailblazer said: Those traits are inherited at conception or acquired during life, and the soul animating the brain and allowing it to function that makes that possible. It is the soul that has a personality, the brain is just gray matter with no identity.

Yet I doubt you dispute that the body / brain form a biological entity whose traits are derived genetically. How can the operation of genes affect an immaterial soul?

No, I do not dispute that. I do not believe that the operation of genes affects the immaterial soul but rather the soul affects the whole process, since it is the animating force that keeps the body alive and allows the body to function. That is why when the body and brain die, the soul leaves the body and passes to another world and takes on another form, a spiritual body.

“The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194

By the way, what Baha’is believe about that heavenly form is also in the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

 

[blü 2]

The soul is the human spirit that distinguishes man from the animal.
Working through the body/brain/mind, the soul does the following.......

Yes I get all that. But the question was, and is, if the soul is real, what else can it be but material?

There is no way to distinguish the 'immaterial' from the purely conceptual / imaginary.

 

[Skywalker]

Yes I get all that. But the question was, and is, if the soul is real, what else can it be but material?

There is no way to distinguish the 'immaterial' from the purely conceptual / imaginary.

The soul is spiritual, not physical. It's the breath of life given from God to us.

 

[blü 2]

The soul is spiritual, not physical. It's the breath of life given from God to us.

That is, the soul is purely conceptual / imaginary; it is not objectively real.

Since to be objectively real, it would have to be material.

 

[Skywalker]

That is, the soul is purely conceptual / imaginary; it is not objectively real.

Since to be objectively real, it would have to be material.

The Bible mentions spiritual bodies. 1st Corinthians 15:44

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes I get all that. But the question was, and is, if the soul is real, what else can it be but material?

It can be immaterial and also real, if it exists.

Real: actually existing as a thing or occurring in fact; not imagined or supposed.
real means - Google Search

There is no way to distinguish the 'immaterial' from the purely conceptual / imaginary.

Maybe not, but that does not mean it is imaginary. It could still be real.

 

[blü 2]

The Bible mentions spiritual bodies. 1st Corinthians 15:44

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Translation: It is born a material body, it is raised an imaginary body. There is a real body and there is an imaginary body.

 

[Skywalker]

Translation: It is born a material body, it is raised an imaginary body. There is a real body and there is an imaginary body.

Just because we don't see the spiritual realm, that doesn't mean it isn't real. We don't see air but we know it's there.

 

[blü 2]

Just because we don't see the spiritual realm, that doesn't mean it isn't real. We don't see air but we know it's there.

We can see, hear, feel the air, because it's real.

Things are real because they exist in the world external to the self, which we know about through our senses.

The spiritual realm can't be distinguished from the realms of the imagination, or at the least, from things that exist solely as concepts in individual brains.

 

[Skywalker]

We can see, hear, feel the air, because it's real.

Things are real because they exist in the world external to the self, which we know about through our senses.

The spiritual realm can't be distinguished from the realms of the imagination, or at the least, from things that exist solely as concepts in individual brains.

We see God's creation all around us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Translation: It is born a material body, it is raised an imaginary body. There is a real body and there is an imaginary body.

Correction: It is born a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a physical body that lives a few short years on earth and there is a spiritual body that lives forever in the spiritual world.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[Trailblazer]

We can see, hear, feel the air, because it's real.

Some of us can see, hear, feel the spiritual world, because it's real.

 

[Bird123]

I'm curious:

Which one(s) do you think makes most sense?
They don't have to be 100% true to ponder the question
Included interesting reads on your own time

Afterlife (Afterlife (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Reincarnation (Study of Reincarnation Archives | Division of Perceptual Studies)
Near death experiences (Near-Death Experiences - Academic Publications | Division of Perceptual Studies)
Spirit and humans in the "same dimension" (Spiritualist belief) I couldn't find anything on this but the gist is the our spirits (some sources call them energies) who exist after death and interact with our living loved ones.

These are missing a couple other views, but the concept is the same in separation between body and soul (or so have you).

Enjoy

Concentrate on making life a good story. I like that. Isn't that what actually happens anyway??

Beliefs are important for a reason. When all the facts are not known, beliefs patch the gap of the missing pieces. Don't people patch the gaps of all the missing facts with beliefs even those that have nothing to do with death? I think so.

The unknown is often a generator of fear. This is also occurring outside the fear of death. Since the unknown can generate fear then fearing death is a rational choice though an emotional one. The reason for this is good. It points one to investigation and Discovery.

Choose your Belief to patch the gap. It doesn't matter which belief you choose. What counts is discovering the facts. Sadly, religion teaches people to value Beliefs above all else. When one values beliefs above all else, doesn't that trap one within a box of beliefs which can be outside true reality?? Is one moving forward trapped in a box??

We are Spiritual beings in our true natures. I have direct experience to this. Being Spiritual beings we are eternal. We Think eternal.

This physical world has so much sensory input that at an early age we are seduced into thinking this physical world is all there is. Being eternal, then convinced the physical is all there is, it is shocking when confronted with the realization of death.
Conflicting knowledge creates an unknown which must be patched quickly for emotional security. Better find that belief quickly just to have peace. Any belief will do.

So what is the real answer? This world is about learning and growing. Knowledge exists all around. Discover the facts and the unknown vanishes. The fear is gone. I say stop valuing beliefs over the Discovery of the real truth. Beliefs might be easier, however Discover will bring much better results.

Time is another concept foreign to a Spiritual being. On the other hand, this time-based causal universe is Perfect for Learning. Being trapped within a physical body traps us within the physical laws of this universe. Still if one Discovers who one actually is, understanding changed the entire picture.

When God creates, there are reasons behind everything. The fear of death exists for good reason. It only gets in the way if that is all one sees. I find that rare.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Some of us can see, hear, feel the spiritual world, because it's real.

Coughs and falls down* How?

 

[Trailblazer]

Coughs and falls down* How?

By our intuition, we sense it all around us without our physical senses.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

By our intuition, we sense it all around us without our physical senses.

I think Blu 2 meant physical senses not intuition. Intuition doesn't distinguish whether the feeling came from god or another spiritual source(s) or a gut feeling. Unlike physical senses where they can be more specific such as the feel of air has distinct characteristics as well as physical pain.

I mean, how would one know its from god by intuition alone?

 

[Trailblazer]

I think Blu 2 meant physical senses not intuition. Intuition doesn't distinguish whether the feeling came from god or another spiritual source(s) or a gut feeling. Unlike physical senses where they can be more specific such as the feel of air has distinct characteristics as well as physical pain.

I mean, how would one know its from god by intuition alone?

Physical senses are not going to to get anyone closer to knowing God who is not a material Being; it is the mind that sees God and that is why I said I know by intuition.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

 

[blü 2]

We see God's creation all around us.

Certainly we see objective reality all around us.

The only place we find the spiritual / supernatural / immaterial realm is as concepts or things imagined, in individual brains.

 

[Skywalker]

We can see, hear, feel the air, because it's real.

Things are real because they exist in the world external to the self, which we know about through our senses.

The spiritual realm can't be distinguished from the realms of the imagination, or at the least, from things that exist solely as concepts in individual brains.

Seeing God's creation all around us is how we see God because what we see exists in the world external to the self, which we know about through our senses.

 

[blü 2]

Correction: It is born a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a physical body that lives a few short years on earth and there is a spiritual body that lives forever in the spiritual world.

Or people imagine there is.

No examinable evidence supports the notion. It's better accounted for as a story to mitigate fear of death.