Where in the Bible is the Christian God Cruel and/or Incompetent...

[SA Huguenot]

I read the Bible, Quran, Gita, Book of Mormon, Hadith etc.
...and on the Bible I did so more than a dozen times. I actually summarised it too.
Yet, when ever I speak to non Christians, inclusive of Atheists, they try to turn the Christian philosophy of a loving God, especially Jesus, on its head with an argument that ...

"If Jesus is one of the Trinity, then it was Him who comitted atrocities, genocide, murder etc."
Another argument is that Christians believe in a loving God, but turns this thinking of God around with the question...

Why would a loving God create people, just so that they should die, get cancer, suffer..." and so on.

I have been thinking of these accusations and can not agree that the "Christian God" is accountable for these heardships and pain. The Bible actually gives the answers, and I found that it is only a very superficial reasoning that is claimed by people who never read the Bible on these questions, to find an answer.

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

 

[epronovost]

Moral responsability is commensurate with the power of a moral agent to affect the situation. If your god is weak, his moral responsability is inferior to a god who is strong. An all powerful god, has the ultimate and absolute moral responsability for everything since he can do anything. People who hold a belief in an all powerful and loving deity are, in my opinion, ridiculously wrong and illogical. The others, not so much.

 

[Brian2]

I read the Bible, Quran, Gita, Book of Mormon, Hadith etc.
...and on the Bible I did so more than a dozen times. I actually summarised it too.
Yet, when ever I speak to non Christians, inclusive of Atheists, they try to turn the Christian philosophy of a loving God, especially Jesus, on its head with an argument that ...

"If Jesus is one of the Trinity, then it was Him who comitted atrocities, genocide, murder etc."
Another argument is that Christians believe in a loving God, but turns this thinking of God around with the question...

Why would a loving God create people, just so that they should die, get cancer, suffer..." and so on.

I have been thinking of these accusations and can not agree that the "Christian God" is accountable for these heardships and pain. The Bible actually gives the answers, and I found that it is only a very superficial reasoning that is claimed by people who never read the Bible on these questions, to find an answer.

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

The question of suffering is a hard question but I find that many sceptics don't bother to try to understand the context or who God is or what He was doing in different parts of the Bible.
The truth is that without that weight of being God of the universe and King of Israel etc, as just a normal human, God is exactly like Jesus, better than any of us.
But of course going in the opposite direction and putting all that responsibility of Godship back on His shoulders, Jesus is just like His Father.
No doubt what I said will be misunderstood also.

 

[Nimos]

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

The flooding of the world is pretty incompetent, given that God created all these things and "he saw it was good". Keeping in mind that God is all knowing, all good and omnipotence.

One would assume that he could create or at least thrive towards creating something that at least remotely reassemble what he perceive as being good, both before, during and in the future.

Genesis 6:5-8
5 - The LORD saw that human evil was growing more and more throughout the earth, with every inclination of people's thoughts becoming only evil on a continuous basis.
6 - Then the LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and he was deeply grieved about that.
7 - So the LORD said, "I will annihilate these human beings whom I've created from the earth, including people, animals, crawling things, and flying birds, because I'm grieving that I made them."
8 - The LORD was pleased with Noah, however.

God ought to already know this, so not really sure how he can regret anything or grieve. And rather than correcting his own mistake or do it right the first time, he decide that the best possible option is to kill everything. What exactly did the animals do?

 

[Samael_Khan]

I read the Bible, Quran, Gita, Book of Mormon, Hadith etc.
...and on the Bible I did so more than a dozen times. I actually summarised it too.
Yet, when ever I speak to non Christians, inclusive of Atheists, they try to turn the Christian philosophy of a loving God, especially Jesus, on its head with an argument that ...

"If Jesus is one of the Trinity, then it was Him who comitted atrocities, genocide, murder etc."
Another argument is that Christians believe in a loving God, but turns this thinking of God around with the question...

Why would a loving God create people, just so that they should die, get cancer, suffer..." and so on.

I have been thinking of these accusations and can not agree that the "Christian God" is accountable for these heardships and pain. The Bible actually gives the answers, and I found that it is only a very superficial reasoning that is claimed by people who never read the Bible on these questions, to find an answer.

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

I see the God of the Bible as Utilitarian. He does what is needed to get the job done. He wants to reach a certain goal and he does what is needed to get there. He is the creator and everything else is his creation therefore he can do what he wants with them. All this morality nonsense is defined by the creator for his creation so as far as I see it it doesn't apply to him.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I read the Bible, Quran, Gita, Book of Mormon, Hadith etc.
...and on the Bible I did so more than a dozen times. I actually summarised it too.
Yet, when ever I speak to non Christians, inclusive of Atheists, they try to turn the Christian philosophy of a loving God, especially Jesus, on its head with an argument that ...

"If Jesus is one of the Trinity, then it was Him who comitted atrocities, genocide, murder etc."
Another argument is that Christians believe in a loving God, but turns this thinking of God around with the question...

Why would a loving God create people, just so that they should die, get cancer, suffer..." and so on.

I have been thinking of these accusations and can not agree that the "Christian God" is accountable for these heardships and pain. The Bible actually gives the answers, and I found that it is only a very superficial reasoning that is claimed by people who never read the Bible on these questions, to find an answer.

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

Atheist have the Idea of god literally written in scripture who has killed many people and will only save those who believe and turn away from those who don't. This edict is mentioned repeatedly in the bible more than jesus' talk of love.

Atheist do not believe God exist so the only way we know "about him" is Written in scripture not said by god.

Christians believe God is real not an idea of him. They feel god actually speaks "by" scripture making scripture not a story written About god, but the literal voice of god.

Atheists do not believe this.

So atheists are not attacking an actual god that christians believe. Christians translate god in many ways. They attack the idea of god as written (not said) in a book.

Attacking what's written in scriptures is not attacking the christian god just what authors wrote about him.

That said, it is written in scripture god killed a lot of people. We are talking of what's written not the literal god christians believe.

We can't speak against something/one that does not exist just whats written about that something/one.

Try not to confuse the two.

An attack on scripture is not an attack on God just what's written about him not the christian's god himself.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I read the Bible, Quran, Gita, Book of Mormon, Hadith etc.
...and on the Bible I did so more than a dozen times. I actually summarised it too.
Yet, when ever I speak to non Christians, inclusive of Atheists, they try to turn the Christian philosophy of a loving God, especially Jesus, on its head with an argument that ...

"If Jesus is one of the Trinity, then it was Him who comitted atrocities, genocide, murder etc."
Another argument is that Christians believe in a loving God, but turns this thinking of God around with the question...

Why would a loving God create people, just so that they should die, get cancer, suffer..." and so on.

I have been thinking of these accusations and can not agree that the "Christian God" is accountable for these heardships and pain. The Bible actually gives the answers, and I found that it is only a very superficial reasoning that is claimed by people who never read the Bible on these questions, to find an answer.

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

You're right some things are only good if God does them though and not man. Thank you for reading the book of mormon.

 

[ChristineM]

I read the Bible, Quran, Gita, Book of Mormon, Hadith etc.
...and on the Bible I did so more than a dozen times. I actually summarised it too.
Yet, when ever I speak to non Christians, inclusive of Atheists, they try to turn the Christian philosophy of a loving God, especially Jesus, on its head with an argument that ...

"If Jesus is one of the Trinity, then it was Him who comitted atrocities, genocide, murder etc."
Another argument is that Christians believe in a loving God, but turns this thinking of God around with the question...

Why would a loving God create people, just so that they should die, get cancer, suffer..." and so on.

I have been thinking of these accusations and can not agree that the "Christian God" is accountable for these heardships and pain. The Bible actually gives the answers, and I found that it is only a very superficial reasoning that is claimed by people who never read the Bible on these questions, to find an answer.

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

Maybe some of these are what you want
Bible Atrocities: Atrocities in the Bible

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Edit: Also. Where in the Gita does it talk about murdering people for lack of belief and one's "justice" as a justification for those actions?

Perhaps someone would supply me with a simple example, to enable me to see what they are talking about. If it is true that God is this immoral being, I want to know about such evidence.

Cliff notes

The god written in the bible is an immoral being. The god you believe in we don't know because we don't believe it exists. Try not to confuse what we read by what you believe. Christians see god so many ways, we can only go by what's written.

To an atheist: God=immoral written in the bible
To a christian: God=love spoken (by god) through the bible

We see what's written you hear what's said. There's a difference.

Kinda understand?

It may feel like an attack on god because atheist say he's immoral, it really is not. It's an "attack" on written scripture not the Word of god.

(The only way an atheist can attack the god himself not scripture is if he already had believe in god existed at one time and no longer does. By definition, that would be impossible for an atheist-so they're not the victim)

 

[Audie]

The question of suffering is a hard question but I find that many sceptics don't bother to try to understand the context or who God is or what He was doing in different parts of the Bible.
The truth is that without that weight of being God of the universe and King of Israel etc, as just a normal human, God is exactly like Jesus, better than any of us.
But of course going in the opposite direction and putting all that responsibility of Godship back on His shoulders, Jesus is just like His Father.
No doubt what I said will be misunderstood also.

Why study details when I don't believe any of it?

 

[Audie]

I see the God of the Bible as Utilitarian. He does what is needed to get the job done. He wants to reach a certain goal and he does what is needed to get there. He is the creator and everything else is his creation therefore he can do what he wants with them. All this morality nonsense is defined by the creator for his creation so as far as I see it it doesn't apply to him.

Awful clunky for " utilitarian"

A flood?
A " bible" that nobody can understand?
Plagues and murdering children instead of
a lil tweak to UNharden ye Pharoah heart?

Then there is your basic of wanting a peaceful
perfect world of worshippers but - well, you
know THAT story.

 

[halbhh]

People who hold a belief in an all powerful and loving deity are, in my opinion, ridiculously wrong and illogical.

Please forgive, but doesn't this sentence break rule #9 here at RF?

Or: If you make a derogatory blanket characterization of many of the members of RF, how could that fit with rule #9? (consider if you like the parallel wording: "People who don't hold a belief in an all powerful and loving deity are, in my opinion, ridiculously wrong and illogical." to see how it would look from another angle)

I've only rarely reported people breaking rule #9, but it seems like we should try harder to follow it, if we want a forum that is enjoyable to come to day after day.

 

[stvdv]

Keeping in mind that God is all knowing, all good and omnipotence.

That one you made up

My Religion teaches: Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresent are 3 of His attributes. NOT "all good", that is a fairy tale.

 

[halbhh]

Maybe some of these are what you want
Bible Atrocities: Atrocities in the Bible

While I've probably answered every last one of those over the years (having written many hundreds of posts to answer such questions), such as to help correct mistaken concepts typically assumed or painted onto various passages or verses, the first one is pretty interesting:

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

The Garden story with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is actually a story about the birth of consciousness.

The story also involves the eventual natural urge to independence, and then the typical (usually happening at some point in life for each person) mistake to assume the authority to judge others -- i.e. eat of the fruit of the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' -- which is generally at some point very soon above our wisdom ability level when the judgment goes past judging merely an action, and instead tries to judge the person themself.

In other words, Adam and Eve trusted their own judgmentalism -- the worst part of themself some would say -- over trusting God.

A common problem for non-believers in trying to interpret something in the common bible is to bring too many extraneous assumptions (and judgements or bias) to the text, and that's usually how they end up making errors in understanding it as it is meant.

 

[halbhh]

That one you made up

My Religion teaches: Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresent are 3 of His attributes. NOT "all good", that is a fairy tale.

Interesting.

For us, we are (if we pay attention to the full text) at some point seeing this:

Isaiah 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts.

(part of the sublime chapter that prefigures the gospel of Christ)

So, in a sense, we are hearing that we are not up to the level of really being able to fully know in an ultimate way what is the "Good" -- it has more subtle aspects than we can get at first.

To use a clear (simple) example: a child sees less of the eventual outcome than an adult, so a child thinks it is 'good' to eat 5 ice cream bars: the more the better. And if asked: would it be good to have 10 ice cream bars every day? the child would often say "yes, that would be good."

But the adult, older and wiser, knows that past a certain point, more ice cream bars is not better, but less good. The adult even knows that some things that seem uncomfortable, like telling the truth about something, are best, even though there is suffering involved. But, see, an adult human, 50 years old is vastly younger than God. A 50 yr old is like a toddler next to God. So, we are to understand there is limit to our understanding then, at least initially, and even at age 50, and so on. God is at least billions of years old (as the universe). At least.

 

[ChristineM]

While I've probably answered every last one of those over the years (having written many hundreds of posts to answer such questions), such as to help correct mistaken concepts typically assumed or painted onto various passages or verses, the first one is pretty interesting:

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

The Garden story with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is actually a story about the birth of consciousness.

The story also involves the eventual natural urge to independence, and then the typical (usually happening at some point in life for each person) mistake to assume the authority to judge others -- i.e. eat of the fruit of the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil' -- which is generally at some point very soon above our wisdom ability level when the judgment goes past judging merely an action, and instead tries to judge the person themself.

In other words, Adam and Eve trusted their own judgmentalism -- the worst part of themself some would say -- over trusting God.

A common problem for non-believers in trying to interpret something in the common bible is to bring too many extraneous assumptions (and judgements or bias) to the text, and that's usually how they end up making errors in understanding it as it is meant.

I think you have that the wrong way round and it doesn't matter how often you repeat yourself. No interpretation required, just read the text as written. Only when one thinks "no thats my god, it cannot be true" does one employ a time machine and other literary devices to build apologetics to make the nasty bits of the bible more palatable

 

[Samael_Khan]

Awful clunky for " utilitarian"

A flood?

Well he had to kill them some way. Why not drown them?

A " bible" that nobody can understand?

Apparently he made it deliberately vague so that only certain people he allows to understand it can understand it. His prerogative.

Plagues and murdering children instead of
a lil tweak to UNharden ye Pharoah heart?

Hey, it tells a good story.

And then there is the whole idea that he deliberately did this as antitypes for the future types.

Then there is your basic of wanting a peaceful
perfect world of worshippers but - well, you
know THAT story.

One of the easiest ways to create peace is to kill everybody who disagrees with you.

 

[halbhh]

I think you have that the wrong way round and it doesn't matter how often you repeat yourself. No interpretation required, just read the text as written. Only when one thinks "no thats my god, it cannot be true" does one employ a time machine to build apologetics.

hah hah....probably, since I was an atheist when reading through it long ago, it's not best to imagine I had a bias for God actually. heh heh

Seriously: I strongly suggest to anyone they try, make a serious real effort, to entirely put aside and even forget (if they are able) old ideas about what is there, and just read it with fresh eyes, as if a poem, where you are trying to listen to hear the deeper side of it.

I actually think this famous poem is good practice:

Just listen to the words, without judgment:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

--Robert Frost

If you get more subtle stuff listening to this poem, that's the same way that it is best to read Genesis chapters 2 and 3.

 

[stvdv]

Interesting.
For us, we are (if we pay attention to the full text) at some point seeing this:

I just said that the claim "God is Omnibenevolent" is not true for all, because I do not define God that way
I am fine if others believe differently. For them "God is Omnibenevolent" can be true; just not for me

To use a clear (simple) example: a child sees less of the eventual outcome than an adult, so a child thinks it is 'good' to eat 5 ice cream bars: the more the better. And if asked: would it be good to have 10 ice cream bars every day? the child would often say "yes, that would be good."

But the adult, older and wiser, knows that past a certain point, more ice cream bars is not better, but less good.

Okay, I will stop eating so much icecream. Thanks for the reminder

The adult even knows that some things that seem uncomfortable, like telling the truth about something, are best, even though there is suffering involved. But, see, an adult human, 50 years old is vastly younger than God. A 50 yr old is like a toddler next to God. So, we are to understand there is limit to our understanding then, at least initially, and even at age 50, and so on. God is at least billions of years old (as the universe).

I agree, that God is so much more than we can ever fathom. I would even say we are less than dust compared to the Divine.

I just replied to a claim made "Keeping in mind that God is Omnibenevolent"
Omnibenevolent is not mentioned in my faith, there they use
Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent

I am fine if others believe that "God is Omnibenevolent" though
I am glad it's not in my faith, makes it easy to disprove this seemingly inconsistency

 

[Nimos]

That one you made up

My Religion teaches: Omniscience, Omnipotence and Omnipresent are 3 of His attributes. NOT "all good", that is a fairy tale.

I can't comment on what you have been taught obviously so will only use the bible. Its not meant as you are not correct or anything like that, simply that there are a lot of different teachings depending on what people believe, so I like to just stick to the bible and it alone.

Some hint is given here:

Mark 10:18
18 - "Why do you call me good?" Jesus asked him. "Nobody is good except for one—God.

If no one besides God is good then God must be the very definition of what good is, right?

I do agree that it doesn't mean that he can't do evil, in fact I would say that he does a lot of that. But if we are to believe Jesus, then our only way to really judge whether something is good or not is against what God tells us is good.

Besides Gods actions throughout the bible and us being able to judge them, it's not exactly filled with verses telling how wicked and evil God is, but pretty much that anything he does is good for someone or something.

So your probably right that it doesn't say anywhere that "God is all good", but when you read the bible, do you get the impression that he is not always right, just and good?