Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

[Trailblazer]

You are always bringing out little technicalities, like when Christians say that Jesus will return and then you point out that Jesus never said he was going to return". It was usually worded that when the "Son of Man" returns or something similar.

That is no technicality, that Jesus never said He would return and said His work was finished here. That's HUGE.

But, this time, you are the one adding Jesus and Christ into the mix when the verse you use doesn't say Jesus or Christ, it says "false" prophets in sheep's clothing.

Although, earlier in Matthew it says...

3 “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains...

21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
​

So who do Baha'is see as being these false messiahs and false prophets?

Who do Baha'is see as being these false messiahs and false prophets?
There have been many false prophets, and that is why Jesus warned of false prophets.

List of people claimed to be Jesus

And you know that I always point out that to not be deceived one thing a person needs to look out for is that there will be wars and rumors of wars etc.... but that is not yet the end? That if those days weren't cut short no one would survive? I don't see how Baha'is can say those things have already happened. But, it sure seems like we are heading towards those kinds of catastrophic events.

As I see it, those days were cut short by the coming of Baha'u'llah, who was the Son of man who came in the clouds of men's complete ignorance, so Matthew 24 is all about the coming of Baha'u'llah.
"but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened" -- I see that as referring to the Baha'is; we are the elect because we elected to recognize Baha'u'llah.

Next problem. It gets so bad that we turn to the Baha'is. Then what? Do we say, "Okay LSA of San Francisco, what do we do? Can you fix this mess? Do you want to take over the governing of the city?" What about the county and state governments? What do Baha'i teachings want them to do? Then the NSA of the United States. The U.S. government says, "Here, we give up. You take over and fix this.? Then the UHJ, "Okay, you're in control. Tell all the nations to work together and stop fighting."

I never said that if it gets really bad that people will turn to the Baha'is. People will not "turn to the Bahais" unless and until they realize that Christianity has fed them a lie, and they stop waiting for Jesus. Somewhere in the Writings, Shoghi Effendi wrote that the Baha'i Faith will start growing astronomically when the Christians launch all-out attacks on the Baha'is -- I can hardly wait.

What's the Baha'i plan? If the world turns to the Baha'is, are they ready to take over and put "God's" laws and "God's" government into action? Or, as things are crumbling do Baha'is just sit by? Because, things are crumbling and too many Baha'is seem to be just sitting by.

I am not involved in the Baha'i community as you know, but I get all the e-mail notifications of their activities, and it does seem as if they are just sitting by, going to Zoom meetings, etc., meeting amongst themselves so they can be more spiritual, as if this is going to help anyone else.

Supposedly, the Baha'is are getting ready by building their communities so people will have a place to go. Most people need some kind of religious community, socialization, so there are Mosques and Churches. If we ever had entry by troops there would be a structure, a place where they could go and learn and socialize.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is no technicality, that Jesus never said He would return and said His work was finished here. That's HUGE.

We all have our "technicalities". The latest one is that Abdul Baha' called Baha'u'llah the "Prince of this world"? Christians interpret that verse to be referring to Satan. But since this thread is about the Mahdi, I guess we should figure out what the "technicalities" are about The Bab and/or Baha'u'llah being the Mahdi. If it has already been explained. do you remember which posts?

People will not "turn to the Bahais" unless and until they realize that Christianity has fed them a lie, and they stop waiting for Jesus. Somewhere in the Writings, Shoghi Effendi wrote that the Baha'i Faith will start growing astronomically when the Christians launch all-out attacks on the Baha'is -- I can hardly wait.

Okay, the Protestant Reformation... some Christian got fed up with some other Christians for feeding them a bunch of lies. Now we have all kinds of sects and denominations of Christianity. Many think that they are the true ones and all the other are feeding people a bunch of lies. Many of those Christians believe a religion like the Baha'i Faith is false and is feeding people a bunch of lies. But Shoghi Effendi really said that Christians were going to attack the Baha'is? When did he say that? And which Christian denomination would do that? Unless you mean an all out verbal attack? And the Fundamentalists have already done that... and along with attacking the Baha'is, they've attacked Roe v. Wade, Islam, gays, rock and roll and liberals. So what exactly was he expecting? Like violent attacks and persecution?

 

[Trailblazer]

Many of those Christians believe a religion like the Baha'i Faith is false and is feeding people a bunch of lies. But Shoghi Effendi really said that Christians were going to attack the Baha'is? When did he say that? And which Christian denomination would do that? Unless you mean an all out verbal attack?

Sorry, I remember seeing the quote where he said that but later I looked and I could not find the quote.
I'll look for it again if I have time. As i recall it was not a particular denomination that would attack us.
I'll bet @ Tony Bristow-Stagg knows where that quote is in the Writings.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But Shoghi Effendi really said that Christians were going to attack the Baha'is? When did he say that? And which Christian denomination would do that? Unless you mean an all out verbal attack? And the Fundamentalists have already done that... and along with attacking the Baha'is, they've attacked Roe v. Wade, Islam, gays, rock and roll and liberals. So what exactly was he expecting? Like violent attacks and persecution?

I see it will most likely be both verbal and physical. After all, we have now seen how passionate people get in the world, when they see things are not going their way.

Many in the East have suffered great calamities, as many people do in this world.

Abdul'baha offered this

" ...the friends in the West will unquestionably have their share of the calamities befalling the friends in the East. It is inevitable that, walking the pathway of Bahá'u'lláh, they too will become targets for persecution by the oppressors.

Now ye, as well, must certainly become my partners to some slight degree, and accept your share of tests and sorrows. But these episodes shall pass away, while that abiding glory and eternal life shall remain unchanged forever. Moreover, these afflictions shall be the cause of great advancement. ("Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Bahá" sec. 196, pp. 238-39)

Shoghi Effendi has also offered it in many ways, this is one passage;

"...the deliverance of Bahá'í communities from the fetters of religious orthodoxy in such Islamic countries as Persia, `Iraq, and Egypt, and the consequent recognition, by the civil authorities in those states, of the independent status and religious character of Bahá'í National and Local Assemblies; the precautionary and defensive measures to be devised, coordinated, and carried out to counteract the full force of the inescapable attacks which organized efforts of ecclesiastical organizations of various denominations will progressively launch and relentlessly pursue..."

Many Baha'i expect great turmoil, the turmoil will be welcomed, as it is a sign of a time great change will have commenced.

After all, you keep saying the Faith is not well known, has no prestige How else will it become known for its forbearance? Regards Tony

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

We all have our "technicalities". The latest one is that Abdul Baha' called Baha'u'llah the "Prince of this world"? Christians interpret that verse to be referring to Satan. But since this thread is about the Mahdi, I guess we should figure out what the "technicalities" are about The Bab and/or Baha'u'llah being the Mahdi. If it has already been explained. do you remember which posts?

Okay, the Protestant Reformation... some Christian got fed up with some other Christians for feeding them a bunch of lies. Now we have all kinds of sects and denominations of Christianity. Many think that they are the true ones and all the other are feeding people a bunch of lies. Many of those Christians believe a religion like the Baha'i Faith is false and is feeding people a bunch of lies. But Shoghi Effendi really said that Christians were going to attack the Baha'is? When did he say that? And which Christian denomination would do that? Unless you mean an all out verbal attack? And the Fundamentalists have already done that... and along with attacking the Baha'is, they've attacked Roe v. Wade, Islam, gays, rock and roll and liberals. So what exactly was he expecting? Like violent attacks and persecution?

CG Didymus " But since this thread is about the Mahdi, I guess we should figure out what the "technicalities" are about The Bab and/or Baha'u'llah being the Mahdi"

The concept of Imam Mahdi is within Islam, since Baba and Bahaullah both left Islam, I understand, so they fit to be considered only for being Masih-ud-Dajjal or Dajjal- the Great Deceiver that is to emerge from the Dasht of Khurasan Iran, as was told . Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

CG Didymus " But since this thread is about the Mahdi, I guess we should figure out what the "technicalities" are about The Bab and/or Baha'u'llah being the Mahdi"

The concept of Imam Mahdi is within Islam, since Baba and Bahaullah both left Islam, I understand, so they fit to be considered only for being Masih-ud-Dajjal or Dajjal- the Great Deceiver that is to emerge from the Dasht of Khurasan Iran, as was told . Right friend, please?

Regards

There is definitely some deception going on paarsurrey.

Luckily, God has given all of us the capacity to sort that out for our own selves.

May Allah be with you always.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

There is definitely some deception going on paarsurrey.

Luckily, God has given all of us the capacity to sort that out for our own selves.

May Allah be with you always.

Regards Tony

Well the deception, I understand, is from Bab and Bahaullah and I know the Bahaism people are not straightforward people, as they are given to understand that they are following "infallibles" and they have yet to join them. Right friend, please?
And I am not bothered by them, so be happy with it, never mind. Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well the deception, I understand, is from Bab and Bahaullah and I know the Bahaism people are not straightforward people, as they are given to understand that they are following "infallibles" and they have yet to join them. Right friend, please?
And I am not bothered by them, so be happy with it, never mind. Right friend, please?

Regards

It is your journey with Allah paarsurrey, I do not wish to change how you see life and faith.

I can only offer the world what Baha'u'llah already has.

God and the Messengers are indeed Infallible.

Regards Tony

 

[paarsurrey]

It is your journey with Allah paarsurrey, I do not wish to change how you see life and faith.

I can only offer the world what Baha'u'llah already has.

God and the Messengers are indeed Infallible.

Regards Tony

I have read his book Iqan, he is as fallible as one is if not more or most, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have read his book Iqan, he is as fallible as one is if not more or most, I understand. Right, please?

Regards

Sorry paarsurrey, I personally see you could not be more wrong, I see in the statement that it is offered, that one considers they know more than Allah.

I wish you well in life and faith, but I offer in true friendship, that, that is very dangerous path you walk.

That is also the quandary of Faith.

Regards Tony

 

[soulsurvivor]

Jesus never said He would return and said His work was finished here

Luke 12:40 "You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" - so what does this statement of Jesus mean? That another Son of Man is coming?

You also said on another thread that the Bab was the Mahdi and Bahaullah was the Christ Spirit (but not Jesus's Spirit).

The Hadiths say that the Mahdi will be leading prayer with Jesus standing behind him. See this page:'Hadith of Jesus praying behind Mahdi - Wikipedia'

Is the Hadith false?

 

[Trailblazer]

Luke 12:40 "You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" - so what does this statement of Jesus mean? That another Son of Man is coming?

Jesus was the Son of Man and Baha'u'llah was the return of the Son of Man, one like Jesus.

The title ‘Son of man’ is symbolic of the perfect humanity that Jesus represented, but it does not apply exclusively to Jesus. It ultimately comes from the Book of Daniel, where it refers to the Messiah. It is a Baha’i teaching that the title applies to both Jesus and Baha’u’llah.

Baha’u’llah was one like the Son of Man who came in the clouds of heaven. He was also the Messiah.

Daniel 7:13-14 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

To explain in brief, the ‘Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven’ means that the return of the Christ Spirit promised in the Bible will be made manifest from the heaven of the will of God, and will appear in the form of a human being. The term “heaven” means loftiness and exaltation. Although Jesus was delivered from the womb of His mother, in reality He descended from the heaven of the will of God. Though dwelling on this earth, His true habitation was the realms above. While walking among mortals on earth, Jesus soared in the heaven of the divine presence.

Baha’u’llah explained the meaning of clouds in The Kitáb-i-Íqán. The term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that cloud our judgment and prevent us from seeing what is really there. Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, the desires of men hindered men from recognizing the return of Christ.

To further explain the teaming of clouds, Baha’is believe that the term “clouds” as used in the Bible means those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. They signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current among men. In another sense, they mean the appearance of a Manifestation of God in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. These “veils” to recognition of a Manifestation of God are symbolically referred to as “clouds.” Just like the physical clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the Manifestation of God.

Thus the meaning of clouds is symbolic, not literal. Their judgment was clouded. Christians were looking for the same man Jesus in the same body that resurrected and ascended to appear in the actual physical clouds in the sky with power and great glory, trumpets and angels, but when that did not happen that way they rejected Baha’u’llah. However, if one looks at what happened before, during and after Baha’u’llah appeared there is not one prophecy that cannot be applied to Him.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
In order to understand why Jesus cannot be the Son of Man who would come in the clouds, I suggest you read this thread I stated a while ago:

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

You also said on another thread that the Bab was the Mahdi and Bahaullah was the Christ Spirit (but not Jesus's Spirit).

That;s right. The Bab was the Mahdi and Baha'u'llah was the Christ Spirit and a Manifestation of God.
Baha'u'llah was not Jesus' Spirit, He was the Christ Spirit, which is the Spirit of God that is reflected in all the Manifestations of God.

The Hadiths say that the Mahdi will be leading prayer with Jesus standing behind him. See this page:'Hadith of Jesus praying behind Mahdi - Wikipedia'

Is the Hadith false?

It is false if it is referring to the man Jesus returning in the same body. That would have never been possible since the physical body of Jesus died on the cross.

 

[soulsurvivor]

It is false if it is referring to the man Jesus returning in the same body. That would have never been possible since the physical body of Jesus died on the cross.

Obviously Jesus will be in a new body if he returns.

You say the hadith is false, actually the prophecy of Mahdi leading the prayer with Jesus behind him is in multiple hadiths - 29 in all including Sahih al-Bukhari which is very well known. Are you saying that they are all false?

 

[Trailblazer]

Obviously Jesus will be in a new body if he returns.

You say the hadith is false, actually the prophecy of Mahdi leading the prayer with Jesus behind him is in multiple hadiths - 29 in all including Sahih al-Bukhari which is very well known. Are you saying that they are all false?

I guess that I am going to have to fold my cards, cash in my chips, and go home because obviously I am not getting through.
I am starting to lose my mind and my patience and I am a patient person. All day long all I hear is Jesus, Jesus, Jesus is coming....... but Jesus has finished His work and He is NOT coming back to Earth. Why can't people read plain English?

(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

No, Jesus will not be in a new body when He returns because He is not going to return.
Imo, any Hadiths that say the same man Jesus is going to return are false.

This belief that the same man Jesus is going to return someday is the primary reason that Christians have not recognized Baha'u'llah, and now the Muslims believe that too?

It is an emotional attachment to a man called Jesus and they could not care less about God or what He revealed thorough Baha'u'llah.

 

[soulsurvivor]

I guess that I am going to have to fold my cards, cash in my chips, and go home......any Hadiths that say the same man Jesus is going to return are false

OK, lets stop arguing, although I don't understand how you can dismiss something that a billion or more people believe in (about Jesus's return)

But I do have a question - if the Mahdi appears in the next year or two and Jesus returns a few years after that, what will be your reaction? Will you abandon your faith? Or will you adjust your current faith to the new reality?

I am curious because a Muslim once told me that if he found even a single sentence in the Koran to be incorrect, he would give up his faith immediately!

 

[TransmutingSoul]

OK, lets stop arguing, although I don't understand how you can dismiss something that a billion or more people believe in (about Jesus's return)

It is not a casual dismissing but a sound reasoning based on a critical look at one's own self in light of scripture.

Humility has been lost as It is more likely the majority are not correct. The Bible is clear that at the end of ages there will not be many that do beleive.

Many are called, few are chosen, narrow is the gate and passages such as this;

Mathew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

It takes intestinal fortitude to consider if you may be a reflection of that passage.

But I do have a question - if the Mahdi appears in the next year or two and Jesus returns a few years after that, what will be your reaction? Will you abandon your faith? Or will you adjust your current faith to the new reality?

That scenario will not unfold. It like saying while standing in the full Sun, what happens if the Sun rises, while a Baha'i is doing what they can, in the short time allotted to each of us, while the Sun is risen. This is already the 'Day of God' and we know the Sun does not rise now for a full thousand years.

In my opinion, It's a what if that needs no reflection, as we live in the unfolding Day of God.

I am curious because a Muslim once told me that if he found even a single sentence in the Koran to be incorrect, he would give up his faith immediately!

There is no need to give up the Quran or Muhammad. It is confirmed as the Word of God.

All that is the quandary we all face when we claim a faith in God.

Regards Tony

 

[Earthtank]

Who is the real Imam Mahdi? Is he still to come?

Mahdi has already come. His name is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad.
He was born in the year 1835 in Qadian, a village in Gurdaspur, India.
He died in the year 1908 at Lahore and is buried in his home village Qadian. Please
Regards

Not sure if a troll or being serious...

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, lets stop arguing, although I don't understand how you can dismiss something that a billion or more people believe in (about Jesus's return)

Why would it matter what a billion or more people believe about Jesus's return?

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, voxpopuli,[2]
Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia​

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.
So logically speaking, just because many or most people do not believe in the Baha'i Faith that does not mean it is not true.

I know it is hard to believe, but the Christians who believe that Jesus is going to return are all wrong, and I do not get that from the Baha'i Writings, I get it from the New Testament. Jesus never promised to return to Earth in the same body, not even once in the entire New Testament! Not only that, but Jesus clearly said that His work was finished in this world and He would no longer be in the world.

(John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11, John 19:30, John 18:36)

Why does it require a Baha'i to point out to Christians what the New Testament actually says?

But I do have a question - if the Mahdi appears in the next year or two and Jesus returns a few years after that, what will be your reaction? Will you abandon your faith? Or will you adjust your current faith to the new reality?

If it could be proven that it was the Mahdi and Jesus I would abandon my current faith, but how do you think it could be proven? How do you think we could know it was Jesus even if He came down from the clouds in the sky? It could just as easily be an alien pretending to be Jesus.

I am curious because a Muslim once told me that if he found even a single sentence in the Koran to be incorrect, he would give up his faith immediately!

That is illogical and I will tell you why. It is entirely possible that whatever he thinks the Koran means is incorrect, so let's just say that I see something in the Baha'i Writings that I believe is incorrect, it is possible that it is not incorrect, but that I misunderstood its meaning. Of course it is also possible that it is incorrect, and if I could anything that Baha'u'llah wrote that I could prove is incorrect I might give up my faith. Otherwise I will just realize that what He wrote is the absolute truth even though I might not like it or agree with it.

 

[Vinayaka]

Not sure if a troll or being serious...

People who claim Christ has already returned (usually as the founder of some new sect or religion) are serious about it, not trolling, just expressing their sincere belief. There are lots. Two of the larger groups are the Ammadiya Muslims, and the Baha'i faith.Some do a lot of proselytising about it, while others are less radical. We have several folks on these forums.

List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia

 

[soulsurvivor]

I know it is hard to believe, but the Christians who believe that Jesus is going to return are all wrong

As I promised we won't be arguing any more. I will be in touch when this event occurs (actually the Mahdi will come first and Jesus will follow after a few years!

If it could be proven that it was the Mahdi and Jesus I would abandon my current faith, but how do you think it could be proven? How do you think we could know it was Jesus even if He came down from the clouds in the sky?

I think we can count on the Mahdi and Jesus to figure out the process to use to prove themselves. BTW, I doubt if he will actually come in the clouds.