Gay Bashing

[nPeace]

It is a fact there was no Biblical Adam and Eve. That is not opinion. It is a fact.

You are preaching to the cows really. Not to me.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is no scientific facts on this, so please do not go there.
It is quite disappointing to hear people misuse science in this way. Very disappointing Artist. You have no idea.

Why should she care? She didn't misuse science.

You are assuming.
Based on the Bible. No.

She's saying there are different sort of attractions, or loves. Greek--one of the original languages of the Bible--does acknowledge this with several words to reflect these different types of love. This is where the word agape comes from.

 

[nPeace]

I actually did. Since they are from biblical views it would be biased. It's not the info, it's just when discussing medical things like physiology, it's best to side away from gay/straight and provide how sexual attraction can changed based on the sex of the person. If you take the hetero/homo put of it, the bias drops and you see it strictly as is. Attraction.

Bbl

I'll show you what you missed when I have more time.

 

[nPeace]

Why should she care? She didn't misuse science.

She's saying there are different sort of attractions, or loves. Greek--one of the original languages of the Bible--does acknowledge this with several words to reflect these different types of love. This is where the word agape comes from.

Perhaps you are reading something I didn't respond to.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We went through this before remember? In the thread dealing with transitioning, and I provided data in that thread also.


You are assuming.
Based on the Bible. No.
God created Adam and Eve, and he brought the woman to the man, who was so delighted, he burst out in poetry.
“This is at last bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh.
This one will be called Woman,
Because from man she was taken.”
Then the narrative continues... 'That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he will stick to his wife, and they will become one flesh.' (Genesis 2:22-24)

Jesus Christ - the son of God - who witnesses the event, testified to it, when he said...“Have you not read that the one who created them from the beginning made them male and female and said: ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together, let no man put apart.” (Matthew 19:4-6)


There is no scientific facts on this, so please do not go there.
It is quite disappointing to hear people misuse science in this way. Very disappointing Artist. You have no idea.
Rather than make these claims, please show the data where there is consensus and confirmation on this.

The Bible and science are two different categories. If you're using the Bible to determine the nature and science of sex, attraction, and gender (and transition), you'd be totally misguided.

I'm not sure how the Bible has anything to do with sex and gender nature of.....

....

 

[nPeace]

Thanks for clarifying.
Well, since the scriptures say God created man and woman, specifically Adam and Eve and God Himself joined them in marriage and then told them to be fruitful and multiply, I think then example that the marriage/ sexual relationship was to be between a man and a woman who are husband and wife. This was also reiterated throughout the rest of the Bible.

True.
One place we do find it written is in Romans 1:26, 27 "That is why God gave them over to disgraceful sexual passion, for their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; likewise also the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full penalty, which was due for their error."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Many people do not believe in fanciful tales told today about the magical formation of the earth

A creator tale is just that.
Science uses no magic to explain the formation of the Earth.

but the do relate to the horrendous barbaric greedy selfish nature of the two footed creatures who ruin the earth with their godless worldview.

Is that why these godless people are concerned about the planet and why so many Christians think nothing needs to be done because Jesus is coming back?

I glorify the creator God, who is nothing like you seek to paint

The Bible is what did that. He's a bloodthirsty, genocidal, wicked tyrant according to his own book.

Satan continues to do that, so it's no surprise to me when people do it too.

Satan is an angel and very obedient and loyal servant of god. That whole rebellion thing never happened until Christians said it did.

 

[nPeace]

The Bible and science are two different categories. If you're using the Bible to determine the nature and science of sex, attraction, and gender (and transition), you'd be totally misguided.

I'm not sure how the Bible has anything to do with sex and gender nature of.....

....

If you are using man's ideas and opinions, there is more chance of being misguided than a reliable book based on human living - both the physical and spiritual side of humankind.
Moreover, if it is from man's creator, it is more a reliable guide than humans who tend to believe something based on their personal desires and biases.
I'm not sure how man's ideas have anything to do with sex.
The Bible was written long before anyone today knew about sex.
You would not be here if it were not for sex.
So if the men who lived centuries ago, and wrote the Bible, which deals with sex, did not know about sex, maybe none of us were born... we must have dropped from the moon then. Seems reasonable?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The Bible was written long before anyone today knew about sex.

Clearly that is very wrong as Moses is one of the first authors of it and clearly people knew about sex by the time he was born.

If you are using man's ideas and opinions, there is more chance of being misguided than a reliable book based on human living - both the physical and spiritual side of humankind.

The Bible does not tell us about sexual attractions, it does not explain how sex works, it does not explain pregnancy, it makes no mentions of STDs, there is nothing of consent to be found, all it really does is say "don't do this because god hates it."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Sex, gender, attraction, etc are "man" oriented topics. To understand the science of physiological and psycholocal attraction and nature of gender you'd have to depart from "facts" before the common era and update what you know of today. It's with anything healthwise.

If you are using man's ideas and opinions, there is more chance of being misguided than a reliable book based on human living - both the physical and spiritual side of humankind.

Sex, gender, etc Are man's ideas. The two do not cross paths. If I want to know what god says about sexual behavior (morally), I'd go to scriptures. If I want to know how neurons, hormones, and biology of attraction between two people (sex irrelevant), I'd go to science.

It's like you're using a telescope to tell you where you are while the rest use a GPS.

Moreover, if it is from man's creator, it is more a reliable guide than humans who tend to believe something based on their personal desires and biases.

Oh dear. I hope not to practice medicine, right?

I'm not sure how man's ideas have anything to do with sex.
The Bible was written long before anyone today knew about sex.
You would not be here if it were not for sex.

This doesn't help your argument. What we know of sex today we didn't know 50 years ago. Can you imagine what they thought of sex before the common era!??

So if the men who lived centuries ago, and wrote the Bible, which deals with sex, did not know about sex, maybe none of us were born... we must have dropped from the moon then. Seems reasonable?

They don't know about attraction and things like that. They know How to have sex. Not too recently in the US we never really studied it beyond philosophers and arts. Look up Freud. He gave a somewhat jump start.

 

[nPeace]

Clearly that is very wrong as Moses is one of the first authors of it and clearly people knew about sex by the time he was born.

The Bible was written long before anyone today

The Bible does not tell us about sexual attractions, it does not explain how sex works, it does not explain pregnancy, it makes no mentions of STDs, there is nothing of consent to be found, all it really does is say "don't do this because god hates it."

Sexual attraction? Maybe you only read parts of the Bible and not the entire book.
You can read Genesis, Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes.

How sex works? Don't see why that's necessary. However, the Bible does tell us how sex happens and why, why it works, how and why it came about, and how babies are made.
What's so important about how it works if you are not in that field of science?

Explain pregnancy? Explain what you mean.

Makes no mentions of STDs? LOL. It makes no mention of monkeys either. LOL. You can always get a hearty laugh on RF.

Nothing of consent to be found? Well I'll be a monkey's uncle. Please... How long have you been reading the Bible? The entire Bible contains pages about consent. Oh dear.

Oh. All you saw was "don't do this because god hates it."?
I know a guy.... all he sees is "Don't do..." LOL. My side hurts. LOL

Sex, gender, attraction, etc are "man" oriented topics. To understand the science of physiological and psycholocal attraction and nature of gender you'd have to depart from "facts" before the common era and update what you know of today. It's with anything healthwise.

Not my experience.
I understand quite well, based on the facts in the previous eras, what most people in this era ignore.
Actually there is so much, people in this era ignore, which if they paid attention, the things that baffle them, and have them struggling for answer, and tirelessly debating, would be solved.

Sex, gender, etc Are man's ideas. The two do not cross paths. If I want to know what god says about sexual behavior (morally), I'd go to scriptures. If I want to know how neurons, hormones, and biology of attraction between two people (sex irrelevant), I'd go to science.

Sex and gender are man's ideas???
Wait. Let me go clean my ears. What?
No they are not artist. Look at the biology again.

Yes, if you want to know what God says about sexual behavior (morally), going to scriptures would be the way to go. I agree.
Yes, science will give you a good understanding about neurons, hormones, ...
For biology of attraction" you can go to philosophy, psychology, and science, but you will always come away with one, two, or more answers - philosophical.
You can choose to call all the "perhaps", "might be", "could be", "maybe", "likely" fact, but they are opinions Artist. Not scientific fact.

It's like you're using a telescope to tell you where you are while the rest use a GPS.

Yes. You are using a telescope if you claim that philosophical arguments are actually verifiable science. Exactly.

Oh dear. I hope not to practice medicine, right?

I hope not. Seriously Artist. For Pete's sake... don't.

This doesn't help your argument. What we know of sex today we didn't know 50 years ago. Can you imagine what they thought of sex before the common era!??

I don't imagine. Tell me.

They don't know about attraction and things like that. They know How to have sex. Not too recently in the US we never really studied it beyond philosophers and arts. Look up Freud. He gave a somewhat jump start.

It's evident to me that a lot of people who claim to have read the Bible, demonstrate that they really have not read it. Or, I have to wonder how they read it.
Yes. The Bible does speak of attraction, love, sex... you name it. It's all there.
What can Freud tell me that I need to know?

 

[InChrist]

I also want to throw in that gay men, especially, appear to be over-represented in the arts, literature and entertainment. This is not a new phenomenon and goes back many centuries in the West alone, but not the West only. Philosophy, too. So if Yahweh hates gay men so much, apparently he hates art and intellectualism, too. He hates culture, then.

I have to disagree with your logic here because gay men and every person is created in the image of God, therefore capable of expressing creativity through the arts and in various other ways. According to the scriptures, all people as image bearers have been damaged to varying degrees by sin and fall short of God’s perfection. Nevertheless, because we are His creation His beauty still shines through each life.
I’d say the culture God hates would be any humanistic culture which profaned God, that which is good and life giving, and culture that disconnects people with the Giver of life and leads to death.

 

[InChrist]

yes, but they didn't talk about it, I suppose. To my knowledge, talking about sex prior to 1968 was a taboo.
As a personal example, I couldn't just go ahead and discuss sex with my mother (pre-1968) or even my grandmother (born 1916). My grandmother had expressions that only after you have given it some thought became clear to have been about sex.
yes, in terms of what could be understood at that time.
But they didn't understand "sexual orientation", as I see it. Because there was no discussion about sexual orientation to begin with. An understanding of what that is doesn't drop from the sky as I see it, it has to be explained by someone and there has to be some amount of discussion about it.

I don’t believe you can realistically know how people talked about sex thousands of years ago simply by comparing it to your contemporary day experience. Besides, if one believes in God as Creator and that He gave His instructions for the best way for humans to live and interact, then it is God’s words about sex that matter, not what people say.

I don’t think Christians should be bashing anyone, homosexuals or otherwise. We are to show the love of Jesus and point lost sinners to Him who saves, the only One who can save any of us from our sins.

 

[InChrist]

Do you think gender exists because of reproduction or also to reflect different aspects of God's image. I read that men and women reflect different aspects of God's image. The Bible mentions male and female in the same verse where it mentions that people are made in God's image.

Yes, I believe male and female do reflect different aspects of God. I think that is the reason that verse in Genesis was written in such a way as to indicate that both the qualities of male and female together present a more complete picture.

 

[thomas t]

rather than evidence based on the facts.

you didn't provide "evidence based on facts" that children aged 11 can consent to having sex. Even if somewhere, girls can legally get married at the age of nine, see here LINK, this doesn't make child abuse right.
in post #117, you explicitely included sex between adults and girls aged 11.
Horrible.
Don't make a case for child abuse here!

 

[thomas t]

Besides, if one believes in God as Creator and that He gave His instructions for the best way for humans to live and interact, then it is God’s words about sex that matter, not what people say.

Yes, sure. For me God's will always matters.
But still - it is not realistic to suggest that people pre 1968 knew what sexual orientation really means, I think.
Before 1975, homosexuality was widely held as a mental illness. However, there was no substanciation that such a claim would require, as I see it.
This shows, in my opinion, that a facts based debate on the subject of sexual orientation wasn't possible more than five decades ago.

I don’t think Christians should be bashing anyone, homosexuals or otherwise.

sadly, it is a common occurence in the main Christian forums online these days. I'm speaking from my experience.
Or do you know of a notable Christian forum where the bashing does NOT occur, which one is it?
I'm referring to bashing that stays unchallenged. These sorts of disparaging remarks against LGBT+ people that are just dropped but never discussed. Before everyone's eyes.

 

[thomas t]

While disagreeing with your conversation partner on matters such as consent...

Some people don't believe in fanciful tales glorifying a hideously violent, savage, barbaric, and cruel god.

I don't think God is hideously violent, savage, barbaric and cruel or bloodthisrty, genocidal and a wicked tyrant, as you put it:

He's a bloodthirsty, genocidal, wicked tyrant according to his own book.

actually, genocide implies unlawful killing. Whenever God kills it's not unlawful, I think. There is no law for the Creator, as I see it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Not my experience.
I understand quite well, based on the facts in the previous eras, what most people in this era ignore.

Actually there is so much, people in this era ignore, which if they paid attention, the things that baffle them, and have them struggling for answer, and tirelessly debating, would be solved.

What people ignore doesn't determine what's scientific and what's biblical. The study of attraction is from man (to use your attribution of facts) not the bible. The study of hormones in attraction and how people are physiological attracted to other people (regardless their sex) is something studied by studying and understanding other humans from a human perspective and human oriented results and conclusions of facts not morality.

Where in the bible does it discuss the nature of sexual attraction-regardless the sex-and how, for example, we are attracted to other people by their smell?

You're saying you can derive scientific facts about attraction from the bible?

Where?

(This has nothing to do with what people accept and ignore just the information that is or isn't in the bible)

Sex and gender are man's ideas???
Wait. Let me go clean my ears. What?
No they are not artist. Look at the biology again

The "study" of sex and gender are man's ideas (study, experienced, etc from of men, say animals, if you want to add in for sake of discussion) not biblical (morality-right, wrong, should, and shouldn'ts).

The bible speaks of the morals of people's behaviors not their sex and attraction and definitely not the nature of either of the latter.

If so, where???

Yes, if you want to know what God says about sexual behavior (morally), going to scriptures would be the way to go. I agree.

Yes, science will give you a good understanding about neurons, hormones, ...
For biology of attraction" you can go to philosophy, psychology, and science, but you will always come away with one, two, or more answers - philosophical.
You can choose to call all the "perhaps", "might be", "could be", "maybe", "likely" fact, but they are opinions Artist. Not scientific fact.

Philosophy are opinions. Religious thought are of opinions. Science just as you mentioned above neurons, hormones, et cetera (was that my quote?) has to do with facts.

It looks like you're mixing the two:

Yes. You are using a telescope if you claim that philosophical arguments are actually verifiable science. Exactly.

I didn't say that. I said that you're looking at things from before the common era to determine facts of science about attraction today.

Philosophy, religion, etc ponder, talk about, and study the morality et cetera about sexual attraction but not the nature (neurons, etc) of it. So, you're using a telescope (BC info) to discuss science and 'm using a GPS.

I hope not. Seriously Artist. For Pete's sake... don't.

With that said, I hope not too but it seems so when you use BC info to determine the facts of attraction.

I don't imagine. Tell me.

Sex as in people's genitals not their behavior. Where does it say in the bible the nature of people's genitals and how they work in regards to attraction?

It's evident to me that a lot of people who claim to have read the Bible, demonstrate that they really have not read it. Or, I have to wonder how they read it.
Yes. The Bible does speak of attraction, love, sex... you name it. It's all there.
What can Freud tell me that I need to know?

I have read the bible. But that's not the argument here.

Where does it speak of attraction (physiological, neurological, psychological factors present when a person is attracted to someone else?

I read that it talks more about morals: what people should and shouldn't do. Who they should have sex with. How they should have sex. Who they should marry.

But not the nature of attraction and scientific evidence for human to human attraction regardless the sex they are attracted to.

If you noticed, I'm not focusing on people's genitals in regards to attraction but the physiological, psychological, and neurological (scientific) response people have when they are attracted to other humans.

The bible discriminates people by their sex. Science does not. It just studies it and come up with the facts.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

How sex works? Don't see why that's necessary. However, the Bible does tell us how sex happens and why, why it works, how and why it came about, and how babies are made.
What's so important about how it works if you are not in that field of science?

We're talking about physiological, biological, and neurological attraction and the nature of how that works in the bible not the function of sex. We know people had sex in the bible but where in the bible does it talk about HOW people are attracted to other people.

On that note, where in the bible does it say Moses isn't gay no more than Peter and John?



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[BilliardsBall]

While I am a big fan of the Christian community, it nourishes me every day...
not everthing is as good as it should be, I think.

These days I see it as a fashion among Christians to bash homosexuals and call them "perverts" and "wicked". At least some do and the rest sometimes stays silent when it happens.

Normally Bible says "judge not" - so why do some Christians think it is ok to speak about gays and lesbians in such a disparaging manner?
Judging and condemning happened in the Bible. Paul judged Alexander, for instance. But before, he was getting attacked by Alexander. Homosexuals don't usually attack Christians even if some of them call the former "peril of the youth" - without providing the slightest substanciation for this weird claim of course. By substanciation I mean a Bible verse or a scientific study...

Paul even goes on to teach that people living in sexual sin should even be removed from the churches.*

But never Bible calls for the insulting of other minorities.

Pointing this out within the Christian communities sometimes gets tricky, too.
They say you were "the accuser of the brethren" or interrupted the peace inside of the community.
I sometimes even heard I was purportedly judging the ones who judge homosexuals.
Merely pointing out disparaging remarks judges noone, though. Criticising a statement does not mean criticising the person.

Thomas

Disclaimer: I am neutral towards whether the Bible considers homosexuality or its practice sinful.

* 1 Corinthians 5:7

You are correct. Name calling is inappropriate.