Why should God make world free from all sufferings ?

[Nimos]

So what you are saying here is that you will make a choice, but it has to be the choice that God knows you will make, what is fated, so it is not a choice made with your free will.

There is a reason I wrote choice with the " ", which is because, if you are "forced" to choose one option over all those available, then you are not really choosing anything, you are merely doing what is dictated under the impression that you had a choice.

Both the irrevocable fate and the impending fate will ultimately be written on the Tablet of Fate at the end of our lives, but not until then, because some of our fate is fluid until then.

I don't think this idea of splitting up fate into irrevocable and impending is helpful at all, it simply causes confusion in my opinion to the point where I would say that it is outright wrong. Because it really makes no logical sense talking about it like this in this setup.

Because if I understand you correct, you look at fate as having two states, one is fixed and one we can change. Which is basically to say that:

2+2 = 4 this is a fixed fate.
3+3 = X this is a fate we can change.

The reason this doesn't make sense, is because there is no difference between these in the setup we are talking about.

God knows what your fate is... both those which are irrevocable and impending. To him there is no difference between these, there can't be, because there is only ONE correct answer. Therefore just as 2+2=4, so is 3+3=6 and can't be anything else, regardless of it being irrevocable or impending. God doesn't care. Ill try to use the example with the lamp.

But conditional fate mThis is ay be likened to this: while there is still oil, a violent wind blows on the lamp, which extinguishes it. This is a conditional fate. It is wise to avoid it, to protect oneself from it, to be cautious and circumspect. But the decreed fate, which is like the finishing of the oil in the lamp, cannot be altered, changed nor delayed. It must happen; it is inevitable that the lamp will become extinguished.”

If God knows that a violent wind will extinguish the lamp, then a violent wind will do that!! You can't protect against it!!
If you could, then the fate of the lamp were never to be extinguish by wind to start with, and either God would already know this or he would have been wrong about knowing the fate of the lamp.
And if God can't be wrong, then you protecting the lamp against the wind makes no difference.
Does that make sense?

Splitting up fate in this setup with God knowing what it is, whether they are irrevocable or impending, makes no sense, it is simply wrong and does nothing except add confusion.

Just as you say:
We cannot know what is fixed and settled vs. what is impending, only God knows.

God doesn't know this either, because to him there is no difference!! this concept of fate being either fixed or not, is simply not possible when you know the correct answer to everything

 

[blü 2]

But humans can change their minds and God knows when they will change their minds because God is omniscient.

God has known for at least 13 bn years when you'll change your mind. [He] simultaneously remembers that it happened 13 bn years ago. And from either viewpoint, it happened exactly as [he] always intended.

Unless [he]'s not omni, of course.

 

[chinu]

Fusion? Two in one?

It’s already two in one.

 

[Trailblazer]

God has known for at least 13 bn years when you'll change your mind. [He] simultaneously remembers that it happened 13 bn years ago. And from either viewpoint, it happened exactly as [he] always intended.

Unless [he]'s not omni, of course.

I cannot disagree with any of that.

It sometimes makes me mad though.
God had better make it up to me in the afterlife, hear that God?

 

[blü 2]

I cannot disagree with any of that.

It sometimes makes me mad though.
God had better make it up to me in the afterlife, hear that God?

I'll mention your concerns next time I see [him].

 

[Trailblazer]

I'll mention your concerns next time I see [him].

I hope you see Him before I die, so He will be ready to address my concerns.

 

[blü 2]

I hope you see Him before I die, so He will be ready to address my concerns.

Well, it's notorious how hard it is to catch [his] attention, but leave it with me ...

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, it's notorious how hard it is to catch [his] attention, but leave it with me ...

He is hard to catch, but I trust that if anyone can catch Him, you can.

 

[Ancient Soul]

IF God is omnipotent and omniscient THEN there can be no such thing as theological freewill ─ since no one can deviate even the tiniest bit from what God perfectly foresaw before [he] made the universe ─ and indeed everything that has ever happened, is happening and will happen in the universe must perfectly reflect God's intention. If God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient then that's not the case, of course.

But your flaw in that, is you are confining your "god" to what you suppose is his "intention", then using your limited to one "intention", against him. But there is another "intention".

But science doesn't offer much comfort either. Regardless of theology, I can see no way that humans can made choices and decisions independently of the decision-making processes that have evolved in the human brain (and, as you'll know if you browse the science news, have been much studied in the last two or three decades). Indeed, I don't see how God can make decisions independently of [his] own decision-making processes.

Huh???

I had no idea some scientists had researched the mind of "god" as you claimed. That's AMAZING!! Please give me a link to this research.

 

[Sand Dancer]

From what I understand, creating worlds can be addictive. Think about it. If you build something or write a poem, a song, or a painting, you kinda want to create something else to outdo yourself. God has sat around for over two millennia now after creating his first world. Don't you think it's about time?

Like potato chips and tattoos.

 

[blü 2]

But your flaw in that, is you are confining your "god" to what you suppose is his "intention", then using your limited to one "intention", against him. But there is another "intention".

Once you're omnipotent, ALL the bucks stop at your desk. NOTHING can happen if you don't want it to happen.

So everything that happens, good, bad or horrific, reflects God's intention. Which explains God's unambiguous statement in Isaiah 45:7 ─ "I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things."

Of course, if God isn't omni, then events can blindside [him] like they can blindside anyone else.

Huh???

I had no idea some scientists had researched the mind of "god" as you claimed. That's AMAZING!! Please give me a link to this research.

I said, "I don't see how God can make decisions independently of [his] own decision-making processes."

If you, unlike me, have a clear view of how God can do that, please talk me through it, the way God makes decisions. Really, without processes ─ marshaling and editing reflexes, memory, data input, morality, reason, and so on ─ God's decisions must be random because there's nothing else they can be, no?

 

[SeekerOnThePath]

Suppose, God claims the following:

• I have already created a world where NO sufferings (any kind) exists at all.
• I myself live in that world.

Further, also claims that anyone is more than welcome to reside in this world, but, for that you have to leave all your ego, belongings, and even your physical body behind in the world where you currently live.

If you are interested, inform God.

If NOT, then don't ever expect that God will make your world free from all sufferings because there's NO reason for God to create second similar world.

Why should God create second similar world ?

Kindly note: please do refrain from posting in this thread if you don't like to suppose.

A world free from suffering would also be a world absent of pleasure and subjectivity, wouldn't it?

 

[chinu]

A world free from suffering would also be a world absent of pleasure and subjectivity, wouldn't it?

NO. why should this be ?
What makes you think -- world free from suffering would also be a world absent of pleasure ?

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think this idea of splitting up fate into irrevocable and impending is helpful at all, it simply causes confusion in my opinion to the point where I would say that it is outright wrong. Because it really makes no logical sense talking about it like this in this setup.

Because if I understand you correct, you look at fate as having two states, one is fixed and one we can change. Which is basically to say that:

2+2 = 4 this is a fixed fate.
3+3 = X this is a fate we can change.

The reason this doesn't make sense, is because there is no difference between these in the setup we are talking about.

God knows what your fate is... both those which are irrevocable and impending. To him there is no difference between these, there can't be, because there is only ONE correct answer. Therefore just as 2+2=4, so is 3+3=6 and can't be anything else, regardless of it being irrevocable or impending. God doesn't care. Ill try to use the example with the lamp.

But conditional fate mThis is ay be likened to this: while there is still oil, a violent wind blows on the lamp, which extinguishes it. This is a conditional fate. It is wise to avoid it, to protect oneself from it, to be cautious and circumspect. But the decreed fate, which is like the finishing of the oil in the lamp, cannot be altered, changed nor delayed. It must happen; it is inevitable that the lamp will become extinguished.”

If God knows that a violent wind will extinguish the lamp, then a violent wind will do that!! You can't protect against it!!
If you could, then the fate of the lamp were never to be extinguish by wind to start with, and either God would already know this or he would have been wrong about knowing the fate of the lamp.
And if God can't be wrong, then you protecting the lamp against the wind makes no difference.
Does that make sense?

No, because what God knows has nothing to do with what actually HAPPENS to the lamp. If you decide to protect the lamp from the wind the lamp will keep burning till the oil runs out, but if you put the lamp in the wind the lamp will burn out sooner. This is your choice and you thus control the fate of the lamp. God knows all of this but God does not cause any of it by His Knowing.

You are correct that God knows BOTH the impending fate and the irrevocable fate because God knows EVERYTHING from beginning to end. The difference is that the irrevocable fate is something that WILL happen no matter what and it cannot be changed (although God could change it if He wanted to He never does) and the impending fate is something that is subject to change since it has not yet been written on the Tablet of Fate that will be written at the end of our lives.

So the irrevocable fate is something that we will choose and the impending fate is something we might choose…. BOTH fates will be determined by what we choose because God does not make our choices for us. God could prevent us from choosing an irrevocable fate if He wanted to, but He never does, because it would cause more harm than good. God can prevent us from choosing to do something that will lead to an impending fate – and God sometimes does – according to His own discretion.

Let’s say that it was not an irrevocable fate that my cat would die, but it was impending because the cat was very ill. So I prayed to God to guide me to make the right decision or I just thought about it and hoped God would guide me. Then suddenly it came into my head what I had to do for the cat and I took the cat to the vet and as a result I saved its life. Had I not taken the cat to the vet the cat would have died, so God guided me and thereby prevented what would have otherwise happened (what was impending).

What you STILL do not understand is that what God KNOWS is not want CAUSES things to happen. What God knows in heaven is entirely independent of what we will choose to do on earth. The only connection is that we have to DO what God knows we will do because God knows everything we will do. But what God knows does not FORCE us to do anything; it is simply identical with what we will do.

 

[Ancient Soul]

IF God is omnipotent and omniscient THEN there can be no such thing as theological freewill - since no one can deviate even the tiniest bit from what God perfectly foresaw before [he] made the universe - and indeed everything that has ever happened, is happening and will happen in the universe must perfectly reflect God's intention. If God is NOT omnipotent and omniscient then that's not the case, of course.

But science doesn't offer much comfort either. Regardless of theology, I can see no way that humans can made choices and decisions independently of the decision-making processes that have evolved in the human brain (and, as you'll know if you browse the science news, have been much studied in the last two or three decades). Indeed, I don't see how God can make decisions independently of [his] own decision-making processes.

But your flaw in that, is you are confining your "god" to what you suppose is his "intention", then using your limited to one "intention", against him. But there is another "intention".

Huh???

I had no idea some scientists had researched the mind of "god" as you claimed. That's AMAZING!! Please give me a link to this research.

Once you're omnipotent, ALL the bucks stop at your desk. NOTHING can happen if you don't want it to happen.

So everything that happens, good, bad or horrific, reflects God's intention. Which explains God's unambiguous statement in Isaiah 45:7 ─ "I form the light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil; I the Lord do all these things."

Of course, if God isn't omni, then events can blindside [him] like they can blindside anyone else.
I said, "I don't see how God can make decisions independently of [his] own decision-making processes."

If you, unlike me, have a clear view of how God can do that, please talk me through it, the way God makes decisions. Really, without processes ─ marshaling and editing reflexes, memory, data input, morality, reason, and so on ─ God's decisions must be random because there's nothing else they can be, no?

But the main problem in your opinion is that you claim to know God's "intentions", and hold YOUR opinion of his "intentions" against him.

And your "science" part has nothing to do with anything in this topic.

 

[Nimos]

No, because what God knows has nothing to do with what actually HAPPENS to the lamp. If you decide to protect the lamp from the wind the lamp will keep burning till the oil runs out, but if you put the lamp in the wind the lamp will burn out sooner. This is your choice and you thus control the fate of the lamp. God knows all of this but God does not cause any of it by His Knowing.

Would you agree that the fate of the lamp, can't be to be blown out by the wind and running out of oil at the same time? Meaning either the fate is that it is blown out by the wind OR that it runs out of oil?

If the question we ask God is the following:
"Dear God, what will the fate of this oil lamp be?"

Then God, can only answer one of the following things.

1. The fate of the lamp will be to be blown out by the wind.
or
2. The fate of the lamp is to run out of oil.

Either 1 is true or 2 is true, not both!!.

If God answer 1, then that might very well be, because you are NOT able to protect the lamp from the wind. Then that is the fate of the lamp. If you could or would protect the lamp from the wind, then the fate would be number 2 and God would answer that.

It is pointless to even talk about fate if you can just alter it to whatever you feel like, then it is not fate!!! Again look at the definition:

1. the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power.

Therefore if the fate of the lamp is to be blown out in the wind and you can prevent it, then it is NOT OUTSIDE YOUR CONTROL as you actively prevented it and therefore it can NOT be the fate of the lamp

You are correct that God knows BOTH the impending fate and the irrevocable fate because God knows EVERYTHING from beginning to end. The difference is that the irrevocable fate is something that WILL happen no matter what and it cannot be changed (although God could change it if He wanted to He never does) and the impending fate is something that is subject to change since it has not yet been written on the Tablet of Fate that will be written at the end of our lives.

Im sorry Trailblazer, it is simply wrong, it is a Baha'u'llah way of looking at fate that makes no sense.

It doesn't matter when or how something will come to be when talking about fate. Either it will be the fate of it or it won't!!

Let's take an example...:
Next time you are about to do something, whatever it might be, let's say go out with the trash, but just as you are about to do it, put down the trash and ask your husband to do it instead.

At that moment, ask yourself this question?

"Did you just prevent yourself from slipping on the way to the trashcan and break your leg, by changing your mind in the very last minute or not?"

1. How do you know if you just prevented a fate "of breaking your leg" from happening?
2. If you don't know, how do you even know if it was a fate to begin with?

3. God knows whether it was an actual fate or not. Do you think he cares if it was an impending fate or an irrevocable fate? When the outcome can only be one of two things.... either you prevented yourself from breaking a leg or you didn't?

4. If you think you prevented it.
Then God clearly knew that you would not break your leg, because your fate were and always were, that you would not go out with the trash. So you didn't change your fate by changing your mind in the last second.

So the irrevocable fate is something that we will choose and the impending fate is something we might choose….

I don't see, why you can't see that it doesn't matter?

If I told you I knew everything and I mean ABSOLUTELY everything!! What was before the big bang? What's the meaning of life? What you think? What you will do every second of you life... BAM!! there you go, I know it and its spot on correct and im NEVER wrong!!.

Would you then be able to surprise me? Meaning do you think I would be surprised whether you changed your mind in the last second or not?
If the answer to this is no, would you then agree that I would also be able to write down your whole life second for second, from you were born until you died. And that it would be your Book of Fate? And also that there would be no difference between irrevocable fates and impending fates?

If you disagree with that statement.
Can give me an example of an impending fate that I would be wrong about, under the following conditions as I stated above?
1. I know everything.
2. I can't be wrong.

Let’s say that it was not an irrevocable fate that my cat would die, but it was impending because the cat was very ill. So I prayed to God to guide me to make the right decision or I just thought about it and hoped God would guide me. Then suddenly it came into my head what I had to do for the cat and I took the cat to the vet and as a result I saved its life.

Then obviously the fate of the cat was not to die at this very moment. If it were the case it would have!! Something is not fate until you change it. It is fate, because that is the final result.

What you STILL do not understand is that what God KNOWS is not want CAUSES things to happen.

Not necessarily the direct cause. But if God can't be wrong, then fate can't change, if that is what God knows it is, otherwise God would be wrong and you would have a huge mess on your hand, because nothing fits together.

If you had asked God about the fate of your cat. Do you think he would have answered: "Either it dies or It doesn't, im not really sure", What type of answer would that be in regards to fate? If God knew that you would pray to him for help and he gave it, and also knew that you would then take it to the vets so it didn't die. Then clearly he would have answered "No your cat won't die."
Just out of curiosity, why do you need to pray to God for guidance, to help you think of the vet if your animal is sick, is there anywhere else to take them? Don't own any animals myself, but to me that would be the very first and only place, I would think of taking them if they were sick, so just a bit confused.

 

[Trailblazer]

Would you agree that the fate of the lamp, can't be to be blown out by the wind and running out of oil at the same time? Meaning either the fate is that it is blown out by the wind OR that it runs out of oil?

If the question we ask God is the following:
"Dear God, what will the fate of this oil lamp be?"

Then God, can only answer one of the following things.

1. The fate of the lamp will be to be blown out by the wind.
or
2. The fate of the lamp is to run out of oil.

Either 1 is true or 2 is true, not both!!.

If God answer 1, then that might very well be, because you are NOT able to protect the lamp from the wind. Then that is the fate of the lamp. If you could or would protect the lamp from the wind, then the fate would be number 2 and God would answer that.

I am with you so far and I agree, but please note what you said: “because you are NOT able to protect the lamp from the wind. Then that is the fate of the lamp” so that indicates that it was something you chose to do with your free will and acted upon -- you protected the lamp from the wind - and that is why the fate of the lamp was not to be blown out by the wind but rather the fate was 2. To run out of oil.

The point is that your free will decision and ensuing action to protect the lamp from blowing out determined the fate of the lamp.

It is pointless to even talk about fate if you can just alter it to whatever you feel like, then it is not fate!!! Again look at the definition:

1. the development of events outside a person's control, regarded as predetermined by a supernatural power.

Sorry Nimos, but if the fate of the lamp was altered by your protecting the lamp from being blown out, the fate of that lamp was NOT outside of your control, and you just exercised your free will to alter what would have otherwise have been the fate of the lamp – to be blown out.

Therefore if the fate of the lamp is to be blown out in the wind and you can prevent it, then it is NOT OUTSIDE YOUR CONTROL as you actively prevented it and therefore it can NOT be the fate of the lamp.

That’s right. You just altered the fate of the lamp by making a free will decision and then acting to protect the lamp from being blown out; so the fate of the lamp was conditional or impending, not decreed, just as Abdu’l-Baha said.

Im sorry Trailblazer, it is simply wrong, it is a Baha'u'llah way of looking at fate that makes no sense.

It doesn't matter when or how something will come to be when talking about fate. Either it will be the fate of it or it won't!!

That’s true.

Let's take an example...:
Next time you are about to do something, whatever it might be, let's say go out with the trash, but just as you are about to do it, put down the trash and ask your husband to do it instead.

At that moment, ask yourself this question?

"Did you just prevent yourself from slipping on the way to the trashcan and break your leg, by changing your mind in the very last minute or not?"

Yes I did prevent that fate by changing my mind at the last minute.

1. How do you know if you just prevented a fate "of breaking your leg" from happening?
2. If you don't know, how do you even know if it was a fate to begin with?

I don’t know if I prevented that fate – how could I possibly know -- but why would that matter?

3. God knows whether it was an actual fate or not. Do you think he cares if it was an impending fate or an irrevocable fate? When the outcome can only be one of two things.... either you prevented yourself from breaking a leg or you didn't?

No, it does not matter to God is it was an impending fate or an irrevocable fate, but it matters to YOU if it was, even if you cannot know which one it was, because only an impending fate can be altered..

4. If you think you prevented it.
Then God clearly knew that you would not break your leg, because your fate were and always were, that you would not go out with the trash. So you didn't change your fate by changing your mind in the last second.

Yes, God knew your fate would not be to break your leg because god knows everything.

Yes, you did change your fate by changing your mind at the last second.

If I told you I knew everything and I mean ABSOLUTELY everything!! What was before the big bang? What's the meaning of life? What you think? What you will do every second of you life... BAM!! there you go, I know it and its spot on correct and im NEVER wrong!!.

Would you then be able to surprise me? Meaning do you think I would be surprised whether you changed your mind in the last second or not?
If the answer to this is no, would you then agree that I would also be able to write down your whole life second for second, from you were born until you died. And that it would be your Book of Fate? And also that there would be no difference between irrevocable fates and impending fates?

If you disagree with that statement.
Can give me an example of an impending fate that I would be wrong about, under the following conditions as I stated above?
1. I know everything.
2. I can't be wrong.

I never said that God could be wrong about an impending fate. God cannot be wrong about an impending fate or an irrevocable fate, because God is All-Knowing.

Then obviously the fate of the cat was not to die at this very moment. If it were the case it would have!! Something is not fate until you change it. It is fate, because that is the final result.

That is correct.

Not necessarily the direct cause. But if God can't be wrong, then fate can't change, if that is what God knows it is, otherwise God would be wrong and you would have a huge mess on your hand, because nothing fits together.

A fate can change if it is an impending fate – that is what impending means -- and that would not make God wrong because God knew all along that you would change your mind and thereby change your fate.

If you had asked God about the fate of your cat. Do you think he would have answered: "Either it dies or It doesn't, im not really sure", What type of answer would that be in regards to fate? If God knew that you would pray to him for help and he gave it, and also knew that you would then take it to the vets so it didn't die. Then clearly he would have answered "No your cat won't die."

Of course God knew what the fate of my cat would be because God is All-Knowing.

Just out of curiosity, why do you need to pray to God for guidance, to help you think of the vet if your animal is sick, is there anywhere else to take them? Don't own any animals myself, but to me that would be the very first and only place, I would think of taking them if they were sick, so just a bit confused.

It is not always that clear when a cat needs to be taken to the vet. If it is obviously sick you know but sometimes it is very subtle and I am not sure. When I called the vet they had no appointments available tlil the next week, and the cat had not eaten for a day so I did not feel like it could wait that long, so I called another vet and found one that would see the cat that day without an appointment, for a small extra fee.

As it turned out, I think the cat needed an antibiotic because he started eating again after the shot. I cannot know what might have happened if I had not taken him to that vet, but I did not want to take any chances. I was more worried about his kidneys than anything else but the blood work showed that his kidneys were stable so I knew that was not the cause of his not eating. He probably would have been okay till the following week but I would have been worried sick over the weekend, so I am very glad I took him to that vet on Friday.

 

[Watchmen]

Suppose, God claims the following:

• I have already created a world where NO sufferings (any kind) exists at all.
• I myself live in that world.

Further, also claims that anyone is more than welcome to reside in this world, but, for that you have to leave all your ego, belongings, and even your physical body behind in the world where you currently live.

If you are interested, inform God.

If NOT, then don't ever expect that God will make your world free from all sufferings because there's NO reason for God to create second similar world.

Why should God create second similar world ?

Kindly note: please do refrain from posting in this thread if you don't like to suppose.

I suppose God should do so because it’s the humane thing to do.

 

[chinu]

I suppose God should do so because it’s the humane thing to do.

He already created one suffering-less world -- already did that humane.

What is the problem going that world ?

 

[Nimos]

I am with you so far and I agree, but please note what you said: “because you are NOT able to protect the lamp from the wind. Then that is the fate of the lamp” so that indicates that it was something you chose to do with your free will and acted upon -- you protected the lamp from the wind - and that is why the fate of the lamp was not to be blown out by the wind but rather the fate was 2. To run out of oil.

The point is that your free will decision and ensuing action to protect the lamp from blowing out determined the fate of the lamp.

Careful not to get it backwards, we have to follow the "rules" of this setup.

So when I say "Because you are NOT able to protect the lamp from the wind", it is not because of a lack in free will or anything. But rather because it IS the fate of the lamp to be blown out and God told you that.

You might very well have tried to protect the lamp as good as you could, but for some reason, it just didn't work, so it ended up being blown out. That is the case, if the fate of the lamp is as God told you, to be blown out by the wind.

If it weren't then God would know it, and therefore not tell you that it was the fate of the lamp. Does that make sense?

The fate of the lamp can't be, to be blown out by the wind and to not be, at the same time, because God knows which one of these are the correct fate.

Sorry Nimos, but if the fate of the lamp was altered by your protecting the lamp from being blown out, the fate of that lamp was NOT outside of your control, and you just exercised your free will to alter what would have otherwise have been the fate of the lamp – to be blown out.

Yes, but then that is not following the definition of fate that we are talking about here, which means that we are not talking about fate to begin with.

Imagine we have Time and we assign a number to it, so the time with the lowest number happens before one with a higher number. Don't confuse it with God being timeless or anything like that, just look at it as the time of which events take place, so read it from top to bottom.

(So we have a strong wind blowing and the weather is very bad.)
Time 1 - You ask God what the fate of the lamp is?
What will God answer you at this point in time?

Time 5 - You decide to build a protective shell around the lamp against the wind. And then you ask God again, what is the fate of the lamp?
At this point in time will God answer that fate of the lamp is the same as he answered in Time 1 or not?

If not, did God know the fate of the lamp in Time 1 or not, and if he did, why did the fate change?

If God answered the same fate in Time 1 as in Time 5, did you then change the fate of the lamp or was it exactly as it was always the way it was supposed to be like? And therefore you didn't make any free will choice to protect the lamp, because that was already decided in Time 1, before you even decided to protect it in Time 5?

That’s right. You just altered the fate of the lamp by making a free will decision and then acting to protect the lamp from being blown out; so the fate of the lamp was conditional or impending, not decreed, just as Abdu’l-Baha said.

No, then it simply weren't the fate of the lamp to begin with and never was. If what you or Abdu'l Baha are saying is true, then you are taking the mick out of God as being all knowing. Because it is IMPOSSIBLE for God to know the fate of anything, if you can change it at will.

Look at the example above with the time. There is no way, God can give you the correct answer in Time 1, if you can change it, in Time 2-5. Which means that clearly God would give you the wrong answer in Time 1 and therefore he is not all knowing.

I don’t know if I prevented that fate – how could I possibly know -- but why would that matter?

But if you don't know. Then why did you answer this to the question just above?

"Yes I did prevent that fate by changing my mind at the last minute."

Then clearly the answer should be, "I don't know if I change fate."

No, it does not matter to God is it was an impending fate or an irrevocable fate, but it matters to YOU if it was, even if you cannot know which one it was, because only an impending fate can be altered..

The point is, that fate is what fate is. and there is only ONE fate!!

If you have a wine glass, which at some point will break either by someone dropping it on the floor or because someone accidentally hit it with the wine bottle.

Then the fate of the wine glass will either be, that "it is dropped" or that it is "hit by a wine bottle". It can't be both. Doesn't matter if its irrevocable or impending. You and me doesn't know which of these fate will be the correct one, but God does. And therefore it doesn't matter whether its irrevocable or impending, because the wine glass still only have ONE final fate.

I never said that God could be wrong about an impending fate. God cannot be wrong about an impending fate or an irrevocable fate, because God is All-Knowing.

Yes so what difference, would it make to God if a fate is irrevocable or impending? If you ask him the fate of something, why should it matter in his eyes, what is the difference?

A fate can change if it is an impending fate – that is what impending means -- and that would not make God wrong because God knew all along that you would change your mind and thereby change your fate.

But then clearly you must agree, that talking about impending and irrevocable fates are pointless. Because if God knew that you would change your mind and thereby your fate, then the impending fate weren't really impending was it? it was irrevocable, because you didn't change anything compared to what God already knew you would do?

That is why I keep telling you that this idea of splitting up fate, makes no sense, because there is no difference, when God is all knowing.