God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

I guess the plan was making the world look exactly as it would look if god(s) had nothing to do with it and man invented all religions, with all resulting division, sectarianism and religious wars as an inevitable result.

The Plan is really not a Plan because God does not have to Plan anything since God already knows everything that is ever going to happen before it happens in the material world, since God is All-Knowing...
So it is really God's purpose, not God's Plan.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it..........” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

 

[Trailblazer]

No, instead of simply believing what I like best, I'll go with the explanation that best fits the evidence.

You should try it sometime. You probably already do that for everything else in your life.

And I do it for my God beliefs as well, the evidence for which are staring me in the face....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The Plan is really not a Plan because God does not have to Plan anything since God already knows everything that is ever going to happen before it happens in the material world, since God is All-Knowing...
So it is really God's purpose, not God's Plan.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it..........” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

God’s Purpose

More claims.

I could also pick this apart and show how if what you said is true, then free will doesn't exist and all our choices, decisions, encounters, actions,... are pre-determined.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

And I do it for my God beliefs as well, the evidence for which are staring me in the face....

If you were, you would be able to give me verifiable evidence instead of a laundry list of unfalsifiable bare assertions.
You also wouldn't need to appeal to one cop-out after the other.

 

[Trailblazer]

So next to being completely untestable, unverifiable and without any type of detectable manifestation, one can also not event count on this god acting in logical manner.

God Has a detectible Manifestation, His name was Baha’u’llah.

Uhu.
Convenient, isn't it? It suspiciously seems like almost the perfect set-up for a get-out-of-jail free card to counter any and all objections and counter-arguments. Or even just the lack of rational evidence or logical arguments FOR the position.

God is not answerable to humans so God cannot be in their jail.

God has a plan and you don't know the plan.
God is mysterious.
God is unreasonable.
God is not logical.
God is without manifestation.

One cop-out after the other.

God is a mystery because He wants to be.

God is reasonable but God is not subject to human logic.

God Has a detectible Manifestation, His name was Baha’u’llah.

God has a Plan and it was revealed. God’s Purpose

There, I fixed it.

And all that, just to avoid actually addressing the points made, the objections raised and the lack of any evidence in favor of the claim.

You must understand how this makes up for an extremely bad case in your favor. In fact, I'm having a REALLY hard time coming up with ways to make it even less believable.

There is enough evidence to sink a ship, you just do not like the evidence.

It's actually worse then that.
Since you believe that all religions were kickstarted by this god, then all religions were already warped right from the get-go, since all religions are quite different from one another and pretty much mutually exclusive. This has always been the case.

The messages were perfect as revealed by God, then humans messed them all up…

Difference between religions are to be expected, and there will be different religions in every age since God who is the All-Knowing Physician knows humanity needs a new Revelation from God in every age. So after a religion has fulfilled its purpose a new religion is revealed.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

 

[Trailblazer]

God could have made several copies of a single book made from indestructible materials and of which the text magically appears in the language of the reader, and have that books send to all corners of the world so that there wasn't a single culture with a different religion.

I would be instantly convinced that it wasn't of human origin.

God could do lots of things since God is omnipotent, but God is not going to do them because God us omnipotent, and and that means God only does what God chooses to do...

As for your suggestions, no human can KNOW MORE than God since God is omniscient, so it is highly illogical to suggest to God what he should do.

 

[Trailblazer]

More claims.

I could also pick this apart and show how if what you said is true, then free will doesn't exist and all our choices, decisions, encounters, actions,... are pre-determined.

Good luck with that. Been there, done that, so I already have the answers all lined up.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you were, you would be able to give me verifiable evidence instead of a laundry list of unfalsifiable bare assertions.
You also wouldn't need to appeal to one cop-out after the other.

I am not giving you anything, you can get your own evidence... It is all there for the taking.
God needs no cop-outs, only humans need cop-outs.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God Has a detectible Manifestation, His name was Baha’u’llah.

That is a human who's making claims.
Not a "detectable manifestation" of indemonstrable supernatural entities
Claiming it, doesn't make it so.

God is not answerable to humans so God cannot be in their jail.

Again, convenient. In other words, you don't have to bother dealing with any and all counter-arguments.
Talk about running away from the issues...

God is a mystery because He wants to be.

Convenient.

God is reasonable but God is not subject to human logic.

Sounds like a married bachelor.

God Has a detectible Manifestation, His name was Baha’u’llah.

Empty claim.

God has a Plan and it was revealed. God’s Purpose

I though you said it wasn't a plan, but rather more of a deterministic algorithm, like some kind of dumb batch program that simply does what it is programmed to do?

There, I fixed it.

You fixed nothing. If anything, you made it even worse.

There is enough evidence to sink a ship, you just do not like the evidence.

I don't even know if I "like it" or not (neither do I see why that would matter), because you haven't shared this supposed evidence.

Any time you feel like it, I'm ready.

The messages were perfect as revealed by God, then humans messed them all up…

Difference between religions are to be expected, and there will be different religions in every age since God who is the All-Knowing Physician knows humanity needs a new Revelation from God in every age. So after a religion has fulfilled its purpose a new religion is revealed.

That "purpose" being, resulting in mass slaughter, moral decay and sectarian / religious wars?

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

"The can be only one." ~Duncan Macloed

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God could do lots of things since God is omnipotent

That doesn't seem like it is the case at all.
Just another claim.

, but God is not going to do them because God us omnipotent, and and that means God only does what God chooses to do...

Play hide and seek, while carefully covering all his tracks to make it seem as if he doesn't exist and humans invented it all?

As for your suggestions, no human can KNOW MORE than God since God is omniscient, so it is highly illogical to suggest to God what he should do.

You asked for an alternative. I gave you one. Don't complain about it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Good luck with that. Been there, done that, so I already have the answers all lined up.

I bet those answers are another round of cop-outs involving more special pleading, piling on of more claims, and more talk about how god is illogical, unreasonable, unverifiable and "mysterious".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am not giving you anything, you can get your own evidence... It is all there for the taking.

No comment.

God needs no cop-outs, only humans need cop-outs.

Yes, you are the human who's appealing to the cop outs.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

More claims.

I could also pick this apart and show how if what you said is true, then free will doesn't exist and all our choices, decisions, encounters, actions,... are pre-determined.

Just because God knows our choices, does not mean we do not have the ability to change. God knows if we will change, or will not change with the choices put in front of us, but the choices are always there.

It takes effort to change and we always find change is not what we like. It easier to take the easy path and say God should do it all for me, or the even easier way and do what we think is best.

Sad, but, oh so true.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, you are the human who's appealing to the cop outs.

I predicted you would say that because it is a common atheist ploy... been there done that.

But an Infallible God cannot need any cop-outs - from me or anyone else - because He can make no mistakes...
A common mistake atheists make.

 

[Trailblazer]

I bet those answers are another round of cop-outs involving more special pleading, piling on of more claims, and more talk about how god is illogical, unreasonable, unverifiable and "mysterious".

No, they would be logical explanations based upon who God really is rather than what you imagine God to be.
An Infallible God cannot ever need any cop-outs... Try to think about why.
Only fallible humans need cop-outs because only fallible humans make mistakes.

 

[Trailblazer]

That doesn't seem like it is the case at all.
Just another claim.

No, just a belief.
It is God who claims to be omnipotent.

Play hide and seek, while carefully covering all his tracks to make it seem as if he doesn't exist and humans invented it all?

God has no tracks, because has never left a trace.
God is not hiding anything but His Essence, He reveals His Attributes and His Will for humans.

You asked for an alternative. I gave you one. Don't complain about it.

I ma not complaining, I am just saying it is illogical to come up with alternatives to what God actually does, as if you could know MORE than an All-Knowing God about the best course of action.

And besides that, you do not KNOW what God is trying to accomplish, and without the Plan you cannot have a strategy, so your strategy for God's communication are only what you believe God should be trying to accomplish.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Trailblazer manages to tie herself in knots in the same thread.

She starts off with;

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

And now says only the messengers get the messages and in a form, us mere mortals won't understand.

The problem with liars is they have to remember their lies. Not saying TB is a liar, just stating a fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

That is a human who's making claims.
Not a "detectable manifestation" of indemonstrable supernatural entities
Claiming it, doesn't make it so.

No, He was a Manifestation of God with a twofold nature, human and divine.
Of course claiming it does not make it so and evidence does not make it so either...
Reality simply exists so He either was or He wasn't.

Again, convenient. In other words, you don't have to bother dealing with any and all counter-arguments.
Talk about running away from the issues...

Take that up with God, He is the one who is not answerable to humans.

Convenient.

Convenient for a God that wants to remain a mystery, not convenient for me.

Sounds like a married bachelor.

God has no partners so God was never married.

Empty claim.

No, a claim with evidence to back it up.

I thought you said it wasn't a plan, but rather more of a deterministic algorithm, like some kind of dumb batch program that simply does what it is programmed to do?

God's methods cannot be compared to human activities, that is illogical.

You fixed nothing. If anything, you made it even worse.

Sorry, I just report the Truth about God and try to clear up misconceptions.

I don't even know if I "like it" or not (neither do I see why that would matter), because you haven't shared this supposed evidence.

I have shared it on this forum umpteen million times. Is there a good reason I should share it again?

Any time you feel like it, I'm ready.

I am always ready.

That "purpose" being, resulting in mass slaughter, moral decay and sectarian / religious wars?

But that is all in the past now, this is a new age. Why cry over spilled milk?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer manages to tie herself in knots in the same thread.

She starts off with;

Trailblazer said: It IS an important message, but it is unrealistic to expect everyone to receive it. That happens over the course of time, not all at once. The delivery system is not flawed just because everyone has not received the message. You have received the message but so far you have chosen to reject it.

And now says only the messengers get the messages and in a form, us mere mortals won't understand.

I never said only the messengers get the messages and in a form, us mere mortals won't understand.
In fact, I said the exact opposite. I said that the Messengers get the message in a form humans CAN understand; and that is the whole reason why God uses Messengers, because their communication is understandable to humans.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

So isn't that implying that when Jesus returns there will be no more wars? Yet, Baha'is say Jesus, or The Christ, has returned as Baha'u'llah, but there is still wars going on.

Which proves they're talking BS.

Some day later he will create a "new race" of men that will be more loving, peaceful and just. Hmmm, then why doesn't their God do it right now?

Because there is nosuch thing as god.

Using Christianity as an example, even if it was true in the beginning, the religion was taken over by conmen. And I don't think many Baha'is would disagree. In fact, Baha'is say that Islam was taken over by conmen... the Umayyads and the Abbasids.

Man needed religion in the times before we knew about evolution. Today we know and still they want to sell the myth.

They should try selling their Kool-Aid elsewhere.