Why Didn't the Holy Spirit Know?

[cataway]

even Jesus is a servant of the most high God
ISAIAH 52
13 Look! My servant will act with insight.
He will be raised up high,
He will be elevated and greatly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who stared at him in amazement
—For his appearance was disfigured more than that of any other man
And his stately form more than that of mankind—
15 So he will startle many nations.
Kings will shut their mouths before him,
Because they will see what they had not been told
And give consideration to what they had not heard.

 

[rrobs]

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.

The Holy Ghost is not a man or an angel, so He might know.

I think the Jews understood spirit to be an invisible force. Wind is comparable to spirit. The scriptures declare God to be holy and that He is spirit. So, according to Jewish understanding (biblicaly speaking), holy spirit is simply the power of God in operation in our world.

So you are right. Since God is the holy spirit, he would know. The point is, the HS is not some separate person. He is another appellation for God.

Holy spirit is also a gift God gives to his people. There are many examples in the OT where God put that spirit upon various individuals to carry out His will. They all had it temporarily and conditionally. The beauty of Christianity is that getting born again means that we have the very same spirit, but further study will reveal we have it in forever and with no conditions. That is the meaning of baptism in holy spirit. It is Christ in you (Col 1:27). It is the power by which we can carry out Jesus' command to do the same works he did (John 14:12). Of course to exercise the holy spirit God gave us, we must first know about it and then believe Jesus when he said we could do those works.

 

[cataway]

That could be true if servant is equal to his master. God and the HS are supposedly equal as per trinity doctrine.

the trinity falls apart when ya find out the 3 are not equal

 

[rrobs]

Well, I believe the Spirit is when God moves. The literal translation of spirit in Hebrew is wind. So when God moves on anything it's the Spirit. Like when the Spirit came like a rushing mighty wind on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:1-4)

The Word of God is the breath/wind of God sent out with intention or structure. This is how God creates. So you talk with the air in your lungs. Your wind/breath is given shape or specific vibration by your vocal cords, tongue and lips. God does the same but His breath is the infinite Spirit. So the Word of God is comprised of the Spirit of God.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

We see this played out in Genesis 1:1-4. First, the Spirit hovers in silence over the face of the deep and then God speaks. The spoken Word of God brings Light. (Psalm 119:130)

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

This is why Jesus calls Himself the "Alpha and Omega". He is the structure or form that makes all things. The Word giving structure or form to the universe just as letters give form to words.

Note the similar wording of what Jesus says of Himself in John 8:42 and in Matthew 4:4.

Jesus claims He proceeded forth and came from God. He also says the Word of God proceeds from the mouth of God. So, it's easy to make the connection. Jesus is literally the Word made flesh.

Good points.

 

[blü 2]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

Of the NT's five Jesuses ─ those of Paul, and of the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John ─ none ever claims to be God, and each of the five states specifically that he's not God, simply God's agent or envoy.

And the verse you quote, for Matthew's Jesus, is one example of this.

(Besides, the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the 4th century CE, so neither Jesus nor the NT authors had ever heard of it.)

 

[rrobs]

Got Modalism?

Modalism | CARM.org

Modalism teaches that the HS and Jesus are different manifestations of one God. The scriptures make no such claim. Modalism was a product of mixing Jewish belief in one God with Platonic though and Egyptian mystcism, something God never intended. Jesus was a man, not a manifestation. So, no I don't got Modalism.

 

[rrobs]

Of the NT's five Jesuses ─ those of Paul, and of the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John ─ none ever claims to be God, and each of the five states specifically that he's not God, simply God's agent or envoy.

And the verse you quote, for Matthew's Jesus, is one example of this.

(Besides, the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the 4th century CE, so neither Jesus nor the NT authors had ever heard of it.)

You gotta give Trinitarians credit for creativity. Somehow they make the simple words in Mathew all but unintelligible.

Yes on the 4th century. And don't forget the penalty for dissent was death. Doesn't seem like a good foundation for any faith at all, but here we are.

 

[rrobs]

That has, of course, happened given the number of different interpretations that are floating out there even among those who are literalists.

To some degree you are right, but I think the whole different interpretation thing is way overblown, especially when used as a reason for denying the scriptures. Most Christians agree on most doctrine. They aren't as bad as Democrat and Republican.

 

[Maximus]

...So, no I don't got Modalism.

OK. I thought that was what you were getting at.

 

[robocop (actually)]

I think the Jews understood spirit to be an invisible force. Wind is comparable to spirit. The scriptures declare God to be holy and that He is spirit. So, according to Jewish understanding (biblicaly speaking), holy spirit is simply the power of God in operation in our world.

So you are right. Since God is the holy spirit, he would know. The point is, the HS is not some separate person. He is another appellation for God.

Holy spirit is also a gift God gives to his people. There are many examples in the OT where God put that spirit upon various individuals to carry out His will. They all had it temporarily and conditionally. The beauty of Christianity is that getting born again means that we have the very same spirit, but further study will reveal we have it in forever and with no conditions. That is the meaning of baptism in holy spirit. It is Christ in you (Col 1:27). It is the power by which we can carry out Jesus' command to do the same works he did (John 14:12). Of course to exercise the holy spirit God gave us, we must first know about it and then believe Jesus when he said we could do those works.

I'm not an expert on the final details about in my religion, but when I was baptized they told me the Holy Ghost is like the relationship between the Father and the Son. The Son pleads for us and the Father wants thing perfect.

 

[Etritonakin]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

In the beginning was the Word (who became Christ) and the Father. Christ did the creating of all things (by him and for him) -so when it says the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, it is HOW -not WHO. When speaking of the comforter, Christ said "I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you" (underline mine). Again, the spirit is HOW -not WHO.

As for why even Christ said he did not know the specific day or hour, there are many verses which show that god is very careful with information -even actively concealing information -because it benefits his overall purpose -the intent of which is to benefit all. Information at the wrong time can be harmful. It is also written that "the Lord is a man of war" -not that God loves anything militaristic, but before Adam, remember a coup was staged against God's throne by Lucifer and the third of the angels "which kept not their first estate" and were cast back to Earth in a state of restraint. They can do only as God allows, but the devil apparently still seeks to thwart God's plans whenever possible (not that it is ultimately possible, as dealing with the potential for rebellion was part of his plan) -so control of information is also important in that respect.

 

[PruePhillip]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

That trinity business is a man-made intellectual swamp.
Given to us a man who was a Herod of his day.
But if you want to know the Second Coming, just ask the JW's,
they have been predicting it since the 1800's.

 

[Invisibilis]

Matthew 24:36 says God knows the day and hour. Maybe He didn't set the date, but He knows the date. I didn't set December 25 as Christmas, but I know the day we celebrate it is December 25.

Thanks for clarification.

Seems to be a thread on trinity.
If so, the the Father is not God, the Son is not God, and the Holy Spirit is not God; but God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[cataway]

(Besides, the Trinity doctrine wasn't invented till the 4th century CE, so neither Jesus nor the NT authors had ever heard of it.)

no that's not true . the trinity concept has been around for a long , long time .

 

[blü 2]

no that's not true . the trinity concept has been around for a long , long time .

The idea of groups of three has been around as long as there have been animals able to count to three.

But the Trinity doctrine is a very particular case of threeness. It is, for example, incoherent, the theological term for which is "a mystery in the strict sense" meaning that "it cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine, and if they add up to anything beyond a claim of incoherence, I'll be interested to hear your explanation.

Under the Trinity doctrine, God is "one substance" but "three persons". Not only that but each of the persons IS God, that's to say 100% of God. 100%+100%+100%=300%= 3 gods. No, the doctrine asserts they add up to only one god.

God, in other words, is NOT three gods, NOT a corporation with a board of three, NOT a partnership of three partners, NOT a corporation with three shareholders, none of those things. You can see where the incoherence comes in.

Also, if God is three persons, then since God is eternal there have always been three persons. And since there's only one God, and that God is the father of Jesus, under the Trinity doctrine Jesus is his own father, and separately, the Father is Jesus' father, and separately, the Ghost is Jesus' father. So the Father has no better claim to the title Father than Jesus or the Ghost have.

Not to mention that if the Trinity doctrine is accepted, Mark's and Matthew's Jesuses say on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" And all of the five NT Jesuses pray to themselves.

 

[cataway]

The idea of groups of three has been around as long as there have been animals able to count to three.

But the Trinity doctrine is a very particular case of threeness. It is, for example, incoherent, the theological term for which is "a mystery in the strict sense" meaning that "it cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine, and if they add up to anything beyond a claim of incoherence, I'll be interested to hear your explanation.

Under the Trinity doctrine, God is "one substance" but "three persons". Not only that but each of the persons IS God, that's to say 100% of God. 100%+100%+100%=300%= 3 gods. No, the doctrine asserts they add up to only one god.

God, in other words, is NOT three gods, NOT a corporation with a board of three, NOT a partnership of three partners, NOT a corporation with three shareholders, none of those things. You can see where the incoherence comes in.

Also, if God is three persons, then since God is eternal there have always been three persons. And since there's only one God, and that God is the father of Jesus, under the Trinity doctrine Jesus is his own father, and separately, the Father is Jesus' father, and separately, the Ghost is Jesus' father. So the Father has no better claim to the title Father than Jesus or the Ghost have.

Not to mention that if the Trinity doctrine is accepted, Mark's and Matthew's Jesuses say on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" And all of the five NT Jesuses pray to themselves.

yeahhhhhh , the math does not work

 

[shmogie]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

I am a Trinitarian, though not what I call a "classic" Trinitarian. I view the God as a being that has three points of consciousness, instead of one, like us.

There is God, "the Father", God "The Son", and God, the Spirit.

Jim Smith, had a son, John Smith, John had a son, Jerry, they are all Smiths, they are interconnect by genes.

God's three points of consciousness are in Control of "The Father".

Their connection and communication with one another is of a nature we don;t understand.

They are one, the Godhead, they are God,

If the Father, does not express knowledge through the other conscious points of God, it is His choice.

All one, all can be distinct, all have different roles.

 

[rrobs]

That trinity business is a man-made intellectual swamp.
Given to us a man who was a Herod of his day.
But if you want to know the Second Coming, just ask the JW's,
they have been predicting it since the 1800's.

Constantine was a real piece of work, to be sure. Maybe good as a government administrator, but hardly a source for spiritual truth.
You'd think the JW's would give up by now.

 

[rrobs]

The idea of groups of three has been around as long as there have been animals able to count to three.

But the Trinity doctrine is a very particular case of threeness. It is, for example, incoherent, the theological term for which is "a mystery in the strict sense" meaning that "it cannot be known by unaided reason apart from revelation and cannot be cogently demonstrated by reason after it has been revealed" ─ their words, not mine, and if they add up to anything beyond a claim of incoherence, I'll be interested to hear your explanation.

Under the Trinity doctrine, God is "one substance" but "three persons". Not only that but each of the persons IS God, that's to say 100% of God. 100%+100%+100%=300%= 3 gods. No, the doctrine asserts they add up to only one god.

God, in other words, is NOT three gods, NOT a corporation with a board of three, NOT a partnership of three partners, NOT a corporation with three shareholders, none of those things. You can see where the incoherence comes in.

Also, if God is three persons, then since God is eternal there have always been three persons. And since there's only one God, and that God is the father of Jesus, under the Trinity doctrine Jesus is his own father, and separately, the Father is Jesus' father, and separately, the Ghost is Jesus' father. So the Father has no better claim to the title Father than Jesus or the Ghost have.

Not to mention that if the Trinity doctrine is accepted, Mark's and Matthew's Jesuses say on the cross, "Me, me, why have I forsaken me?" And all of the five NT Jesuses pray to themselves.

Good points. There are several verses that say Jesus was just like us. I'm 100% man, period!

 

[Faithofchristian]

Speaking about his second coming, Jesus said,

"But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36.
​

I understand Trinitarians say that it was the "man part" of Jesus that didn't know the day and hour. Scripturally, it's not the best argument given that there are no verses that mention a "man part" of Jesus.

But we'll assume Jesus had a God part as well as a man part. But why doesn't the third person of the trinity know the day and hour? Is he also part God and part man?

The Holy Spirit is God..
Seeing that the Holy Spirit is God..
And Jesus Christ said. That only the Father knows the day and hour.
Therefore the Holy Spirit definitely knows the day and hour..

I don't think you will understand this..
But inside each person has a spirit.

Alot of people don't know this..
including alot of Christians...
But in the book of Revelation..
Jesus Christ has revealed all about the day and hour..
What will be happening on that day and hour..
The day and hour has to happen first..before Jesus Christ can return..