A worldwide community called “the Baha’i Faith”

[Jim]

Their point, as I see it, is and they would correct me if wrong, that given the writings that are on offer, what would be that disagreement?

A willingness to embrace what can not be changed, may be an issue though and I suspect many wil have to face those conflicts within their own selves. I and others can only support each other on that journey.

Regards Tony

I’m not sure that I understand. I’m saying that members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community disagree with each other about homosexuality as much as people do in all the rest of society. Anyone who wants to know if what I’m saying is true or not, can find out by doing a Web search with the words “gay” and “Baha’i.” Are you saying that what I’m saying is not true? Are you saying that members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community do not disagree with each other about homosexuality, as much as people do in the rest of society?

 

[Jim]

I'm not saying it's not true, I'm just saying I have doubts about how much impact the Baha'i say they have versus how much they really have. You are free to believe what you want.

I’m not talking about impact. I’m talking about what Baha’is do, and what they are aiming for.

 

[Jim]

'My point was that members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community disagree with each other about homosexuality as much as people do in all the rest of society.'

That's exactly the same as saying the writings of the Bahá'u'lláh are clearly wrong to many of the
Baha’i Faith

Are you disagreeing with what I’m saying? Are you denying that members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community disagree with each other about homosexuality as much as people do in the rest of society?

 

[Jim]

When I chatted with ex-Baha'is (the sensible ones who had just withdrawn without a lot of hate) the main activity they almost always said they did was proselytising. But they could all be lying too. I don't know. (which was also one of the main reasons they left)

I’m not talking about what happened more than 20 years ago. I’m talking about what’s happening now, today in the offline world of actual experience. I’m saying that in thousands of localities around the world, Baha’is are:
- Working with neighbors to help build a healthier, happier, more loving community life.
- Collaborating on economic and social development revolving around continual self improvement, with continually growing love for all of nature including all people everywhere.
- Providing systematic training for those purposes, for people of all ages.

Do you seriously have any reason to think that what I’m saying about that might not be true?

 

[Darkforbid]

Are you disagreeing with what I’m saying? Are you denying that members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community disagree with each other about homosexuality as much as people do in the rest of society?

Yes, 'Becoming a Baha'i is a process of declaring one's belief in Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God, and His teachings as the Will of God for this age. In some (many) cases, current practices in society go against those teachings and require the believer to gradually change his/her behavior to better align with them, as a reflection of our love for Baha'u'llah.'

'And the purpose of sexuality as being for the propagation of the human species, and that it is not some thing that should dominate our thoughts and lives, and does not define who we are.'

 

[Jim]

Yes, 'Becoming a Baha'i is a process of declaring one's belief in Baha'u'llah as a Manifestation of God, and His teachings as the Will of God for this age. In some (many) cases, current practices in society go against those teachings and require the believer to gradually change his/her behavior to better align with them, as a reflection of our love for Baha'u'llah.'

'And the purpose of sexuality as being for the propagation of the human species, and that it is not some thing that should dominate our thoughts and lives, and does not define who we are.'

I’m a member of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community. I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relationships, or against gay marriage. I personally know members who think that it’s wrong to have any prohibition at all against any kind of gay sex. Are you saying that I’m lying about that?

 

[Jim]

Here is the perfect example of how 'I don't know' is considered as negative. I've repeatedly said 'I don't know' because I really don't know. Maybe. Maybe not. Apparently you're suggesting I believe everything the Baha'is say. Only a fool would believe what someone says without further investigation, as anybody can say whatever they want to.

In western Canada I looked up Bahai' communities, (because I live here and know the territory) and one that was listed is a ghost town. Several others were tiny villages or hamlets. The Baha'is claim they have over 2 million adherents in India, yet the Indian census said just over 10 000. So I'm skeptical, that's all. I've been accused of having an anti-Baha'i agenda for being skeptical. But hey, that's life. It is part of the 'I'm right and you're wrong' paradigm we dialogue with.

I’m saying that in thousands of localities around the world, Baha’is are:
- Working with neighbors to help build a healthier, happier, more loving community life.
- Collaborating on economic and social development revolving around continual self improvement, with continually growing love for all of nature including all people everywhere.
- Providing systematic training for those purposes, for people of all ages.

Do you seriously have any reason to think that what I’m saying about that might not be true?

 

[Jim]

@Jim ... here's a link to the Baha'i community of my city, and their website. Home - Edmonton Bahá'í Community They talk about working with the community, but then when you scroll down, it's clear they're not talking about the community at large, but just the Baha'i community. I found it misleading. but probably not on purpose. What do you think?

I’m trying to find out if you are really, seriously skeptical about what I’m saying. Maybe you really are. If so, does it matter to you if it’s true or not? I mean, if what I’m saying is true, would you want to know?

 

[Jim]

@Jim ... here's a link to the Baha'i community of my city, and their website. Home - Edmonton Bahá'í Community They talk about working with the community, but then when you scroll down, it's clear they're not talking about the community at large, but just the Baha'i community. I found it misleading. but probably not on purpose. What do you think?

I’m saying that in thousands of localities around the world, Baha’is are:
- Working with neighbors to help build a healthier, happier, more loving community life.
- Collaborating on economic and social development revolving around continual self improvement, with continually growing love for all of nature including all people everywhere.
- Providing systematic training for those purposes, for people of all ages.

Do you think that what I’m saying might be false? Do you think that I might be spreading misinformation about the worldwide Baha’i Faith community?

 

[Darkforbid]

I’m a member of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community. I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relationships, or against gay marriage. I personally know members who think that it’s wrong to have any prohibition at all against any kind of gay sex. Are you saying that I’m lying about that?

Read: Homosexuality and the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

 

[Jim]

Yes, plenty of reasons. But emphasis on 'might not'.

Okay. Certainly it’s possible that I’m wrong, that Baha’i’s are not really doing what I think they’re doing in thousands of localities around the world. Would you have any interest in knowing my reasons for thinking that what I’m saying is true?

 

[Jim]

Read: Homosexuality and the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

I’m a member of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community. I don’t see any prohibition in Baha’i scriptures against all homosexual relationships, or against gay marriage. I personally know members who think that it’s wrong to have any prohibition at all against any kind of gay sex. Are you saying that we’re lying about what we think, or about our membership?

 

[Vinayaka]

About once every two weeks now, but I wish it were far less, I make the mistake of entering a 'goes nowhere' discussion. I'm sorry for upsetting you, Jim, and have deleted all my posts.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I’m not sure that I understand. I’m saying that members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community disagree with each other about homosexuality as much as people do in all the rest of society. Anyone who wants to know if what I’m saying is true or not, can find out by doing a Web search with the words “gay” and “Baha’i.” Are you saying that what I’m saying is not true? Are you saying that members of the worldwide Baha’i Faith community do not disagree with each other about homosexuality, as much as people do in the rest of society?

I am saying the advice to date is clear and that is all we need to be concerned with, I see no advantage in saying more than what is already given in the Writings and the advice about those Writings given by the Universal House of Justice. It is up to us to pursue all what is said, so we have no doubts as to what is said.

If the situation changes, I am sure more advice will be given.

What happens in the world, will challenge on many fronts, the advice that can be found in the writings on this and many subjects. I do not see we need to add any external influences into that advice.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Read: Homosexuality and the Baháʼí Faith - Wikipedia

No matter how many people are reading anti-gay messages into Baha’i scriptures, or who they are, that’s irrelevant to the question of whether or not there are members who see nothing wrong with gay sex or gay marriage. I’m saying that there are members who see nothing wrong with gay sex or gay marriage. Are you denying that?

 

[Darkforbid]

No matter how many people are reading anti-gay messages into Baha’i scriptures, or who they are, that’s irrelevant to the question of whether or not there are members who see nothing wrong with gay sex or gay marriage. I’m saying that there are members who see nothing wrong with gay sex or gay marriage. Are you denying that?

I don't actually give a **** what the Baha’i congregation say, just what Baha’i Faith expects from is members

Personally I think your just a gay atheist hiding under the Baha’i banner. Because you don't like your atheist views or sexuality challenged

 

[Jim]

About once every two weeks now, but I wish it were far less, I make the mistake of entering a 'goes nowhere' discussion. I'm sorry for upsetting you, Jim, and have deleted all my posts.

I had some bad thoughts and feelings about what you were doing, but I see now that you might really have doubts about what I’m saying. I see good reasons for your skepticism, but in this discussion with me I thought you were just being devious. Maybe you can relate to that feeling. I’m over that now. I don’t know if you would be interested or not in my reasons for what I’m thinking about what Baha’is are currently doing offline. Maybe I’ll try to explain anyway, later, so if you’re interested you can see what they are.

 

[Jim]

I don't actually give a **** what the Baha’i congregation say, just what Baha’i Faith expects from is members.

Is there something that you think the House of Justice expects from the members, that you think is relevant to what I’ve said in this thread?

 

[Jim]

I see no advantage in saying more than what is already given in the Writings and the advice about those Writings given by the Universal House of Justice. ...I do not see we need to add any external influences into that advice.

I agree. That’s exactly why I object to calling homosexuality an “illness.” That’s exactly why I object to saying that there’s a prohibition against all homosexual relations. That’s exactly why I object to saying that there’s a prohibition against gay marriage. I see all of that as reading things into Baha’i writings that aren’t there, under the influence of prejudices and political propaganda.against gays.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I agree. That’s exactly why I object to calling homosexuality an “illness.” That’s exactly why I object to saying that there’s a prohibition against all homosexual relations. That’s exactly why I object to saying that there’s a prohibition against gay marriage. I see all of that as reading things into Baha’i writings that aren’t there, under the influence of prejudices and political propaganda.against gays.

They are what they are and what was said was said and cannot be changed. So other than what is written in the English, which gives the words meaning for us to undestand, what would you do with those words then Jim?

Thus the test is ours, do we accept that or not?

Regards Tony