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Midrash concerning Peter

Terry Sampson

Well-Known Member
Is that against the Torah? I

Deuteronomy 18
Occult Practices

9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Mentioned in Deut 18:11 and Lev 20:27, the practice of dealing with "Ov". The woman in question was reputed to be a ba'alat Ov, a practitioner of Ov.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
She was a medium, one who channels or calls up the dead.
Ok, so thanks for answering that. It gives me the idea for a thread about whether Jews are permitted to use time machines, since the living might accidentally communicate with the dead that way. I'll avoid derailing further, however.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Deuteronomy 18
Occult Practices

9 When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the Lord your God.

The Prophet
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him. 19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”

21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the Lord?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the Lord does not take place or come true, that is a message the Lord has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
The only piece missing here is 1 Sam 28:7 which defines the woman as rosends describes. The "balat-ov"; It's the third word in Hebrew from the end of the verse. It matches the word in Hebrew "Ov" in Deut 18:11. In the translation above, it's the word that is translated to "medium".

hyperlink >>> biblehub.com deut 18:11
hyperlink >>> biblehub.com 1 sam 28:7
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, one that useth divination, a soothsayer, or an enchanter, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or one that consulteth a ghost or a familiar spirit, or a necromancer" (Deut. 18:10-11)
Thanks for your reply. I drew conversation far off of your topic by mistake. That is a failing I have sometimes. Back to your comment...

Hey, the Bible says there used to be actual witches, so you decide what you want to do about that. :)
True it apparently does. I guess I will continue not seeing the relevance of some of the listed witchly activities and generally stay further from that topic until someone else brings it up again.

It seems to me in your midrash that Peter is acting as the bogeyman in a story which is really emphasizing a different lesson.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
There's a midrash from Otzar Ha'midrashim (printed in 1913 I believe) about the supposed origins of the man who Christians came to call Peter. I couldn't find an English translation, so I tried to do it myself. Hope it didn't come out too bad.

"And it came to be that the argument between the Christians and the Jews grew stronger, for when a Christian saw a Jew he killed him, and the problem grew worse over the course of the next 30 years. And the Christians grew in numbers of thousands and tens of thousands, and they prevented the Israelites from making pilgrimage, and this was a great misfortune in Israel as the day that the [golden] calf was made, and they did not know what to do. Even so, their faith grew stronger.

And 12 men went out to twelve kingdoms and made their prophecies, and the Israelites wrongfully followed them, and these were great and well-known people, and they strengthened the faith in Jesus as they claimed to be his apostles, and many of Israel gathered to them.

And the sages saw this evil thing, and they were greatly saddened, and they said to each other:

“Woe is us that in our times this evil thing has happened in Israel, unheard of in the days of our fathers.”

And they were greatly saddened, and they sat and cried and lifted their eyes to the heavens and said:

“Please, Hashem, God of the Heavens, give us advice on what to do […(not completely sure how to translate the rest of the prayer)]”

And when they finished, stood a sage from the sages and his name was Shimon Kippah [Simon of the dome], and he had used [in the past] the Heavenly Voice, and he said to them:

“Listen my brethren and nation, if what I say be well in your eyes, I shall separate these people from the congregation of Israel, and they shall have no part in Israel, but only if you shall accept this sin upon yourselves.”

And they all answered in unison:

“We shall accept this sin as you have said.”

And Shimon Kippah went into the hekhal [part of the temple] and he wrote the Great Name, and cut his flesh and inserted the Name inside himself, and he left the temple, and he took out the Name and learned it, and he went to a great city of the Christians and he called out:

“Whosoever believes in Jesus shall come to me, for I am his apostle.”

And they said to him:

“Give a sign and a miracle.”

And he said to them:

“What do you ask of me?”

And they said:

“The miracles that Jesus did during his lifetime, do as well.”

And he said:

“Bring me a lepper.”

And they brought him, and he placed his hands upon him, and lo, he was healed.

And he said to them:

“Bring me a dead person.”

And they brought one to him, and he placed his hands upon him, and he lived and he stood on his legs.

And the people saw these, and they fell before him, and said to him:

“Indeed, you are the apostle of Jesus for he did these same things during his lifetime.”

And Shimon Kippah said to them:

“I am the apostle of Jesus and he commanded me to come to you. Swear to me that you shall do all as I command you.”

And they all said in unison:

“All that you shall command us we shall do.”

And Shimon Kippah said to them:

“Know that Jesus was a great hater of Israel and their Torah, as prophesied by Isaiah: “Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth”, and know as well, that he is not wanting of Israel as prophesied by Hosea “For you are not my nation”, and though he has the strength to uproot them from this world in an instance, he does not wish to annihilate them, but he wants to leave them so his hanging and stoning be remembered forever. And all the torture he went through to save you from Hell.

And now he warns you and commands you:

To never again harm a Jew, and if a Jew would request a Christian to walk with him a mile, he shall walk with him two miles, and if a Jew shall hit him on the left cheek he shall turn his right cheek as well, in order for them to earn their reward in this world and in the next world they shall be sent to Hell – and if you shall do all of these, you shall be rewarded by sitting with him.

And he commands you:

That you shall not keep the Passover but shall celebrate the day of his death, and instead of the Festival of Shavuot you shall celebrate the fortieth day of his stoning and rising to the Heavens after, and instead of the Festival of Sukkot you shall celebrate his day of birth and on the eighth day of his birth you shall celebrate the day of his circumcision.”

And they all said in unison:

“All that you have said we shall do, but only if you were to remain with us.”

And he said:

“I shall sit amongst you, but only if you shall do as he commanded upon me, to only eat weak bread and water, and you must build me a tower inside the city where I shall remain until my death.”

And they said:

“As you said it shall be done.”

And they built him a tower, and the tower was his living quarters, and every day they supplied him with bread and water until the day of his death, and he sat inside [the tower], and he served the God of our forefathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and he created a great many hymns, and he sent these to all of Israel to be remembered by them throughout the ages, and all his hymns he sent to his rabbis.

And Shimon sat in the tower for six years, and he died, and he commanded that he be buried in the tower, and this was done. After this, they built a grand building over this, and this tower remains in Rome, and they call him Peter, which is a name of a rock, for he sat upon the rock until his dying day."

---

Over the generations, there have been those that hold that this midrash - or some version of it - is historically true. Rabbeinu Tam, one of Rashi's grandchildren held that not only this was true, but one of the hymns that Simon/Peter wrote during his time with the Christians was none other than "Nishmat Kol Chai", which Jews say every Shabbat and Yom Tov during morning prayers. Others have voiced harsh disagreements, of course, so the midrash has become quite controversial.

I'd be interested to hear what people think of this midrash.

Shimon worshiped Ha Shem, Blessed be He, and NEVER abrogated God's Law, as Rebbe Shaul and Yeshua HaMashiach never did!
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
No. The polemics here seem to suggest a later date, probably when Christian persecution of Jews was actually possible and/or legal.
Its not clear to me that this is a polemic. Everything depends upon why its written and what qualified readers would perceive it to mean. That is unclear to me. Since that isn't clear I won't conclude that its a polemic. The complexity of the ideas is such that I frequently can't make heads or tails of it. Look at this part: "...this was a great misfortune in Israel as the day that the [golden] calf was made..." How does the making of the golden calf have anything to do with Christians killing Jews? Well...I can come up with several guesses, but that's only one bit of the midrash. Also what does this mean: "Listen my brethren and nation, if what I say be well in your eyes, I shall separate these people from the congregation of Israel, and they shall have no part in Israel, but only if you shall accept this sin upon yourselves." That's complicated. What is the sin mentioned therein? Is it the sin of separation? To what sin does the voice from heaven refer? They have to accept a sin upon themselves in order to accomplish separation, but if its polemic it should be arguing that not to separate would be a sin. None of this makes logical sense without further explanation.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
Its not clear to me that this is a polemic. Everything depends upon why its written and what qualified readers would perceive it to mean. That is unclear to me. Since that isn't clear I won't conclude that its a polemic. The complexity of the ideas is such that I frequently can't make heads or tails of it. Look at this part: "...this was a great misfortune in Israel as the day that the [golden] calf was made..." How does the making of the golden calf have anything to do with Christians killing Jews? Well...I can come up with several guesses, but that's only one bit of the midrash. Also what does this mean: "Listen my brethren and nation, if what I say be well in your eyes, I shall separate these people from the congregation of Israel, and they shall have no part in Israel, but only if you shall accept this sin upon yourselves." That's complicated. What is the sin mentioned therein? Is it the sin of separation? To what sin does the voice from heaven refer? They have to accept a sin upon themselves in order to accomplish separation, but if its polemic it should be arguing that not to separate would be a sin. None of this makes logical sense without further explanation.

The context of the following passage seems to be clear that Christians were persecuting Jews. I don't think they were powerful or numerous enough in the first century to do this.

"And it came to be that the argument between the Christians and the Jews grew stronger, for when a Christian saw a Jew he killed him, and the problem grew worse over the course of the next 30 years. And the Christians grew in numbers of thousands and tens of thousands, and they prevented the Israelites from making pilgrimage, and this was a great misfortune in Israel as the day that the [golden] calf was made, and they did not know what to do. Even so, their faith grew stronger."​
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Its not clear to me that this is a polemic. Everything depends upon why its written and what qualified readers would perceive it to mean. That is unclear to me. Since that isn't clear I won't conclude that its a polemic. The complexity of the ideas is such that I frequently can't make heads or tails of it. Look at this part: "...this was a great misfortune in Israel as the day that the [golden] calf was made..." How does the making of the golden calf have anything to do with Christians killing Jews? Well...I can come up with several guesses, but that's only one bit of the midrash. Also what does this mean: "Listen my brethren and nation, if what I say be well in your eyes, I shall separate these people from the congregation of Israel, and they shall have no part in Israel, but only if you shall accept this sin upon yourselves." That's complicated. What is the sin mentioned therein? Is it the sin of separation? To what sin does the voice from heaven refer? They have to accept a sin upon themselves in order to accomplish separation, but if its polemic it should be arguing that not to separate would be a sin. None of this makes logical sense without further explanation.

I like the word "legend" that often gets attached to this story. It could also be seen as a "ghost story". Seriously. Something to send chills down the spine on a cold and stormy night.

There's a yiddish expression: Bubbe-meisa. A grandma-story... or an old wives tale. I think this story qualifies as one of those.

Sometimes the midrash contains pearls of wisdom. Sometimes it's just a tall tale. Also, the OP told us, this particular set of Midrash contains some odd stuff in it.

@Harel13 , what do you think about it? Is the midrash in the OP legend? Old wives tale? Maybe a spooky ghost-story?
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
@Harel13 , what do you think about it? Is the midrash in the OP legend? Old wives tale? Maybe a spooky ghost-story?
I've been thinking about it for awhile now. I'm not sure if there's truth to it or not. Yes, the story most likely wasn't exactly as described in the midrash, if it happened. There is some part of me that sort of wishes it was true (even though it sounds a bit like an ancient conspiracy theory), same as there many other fantastic midrashim and stories that I wish were true, simply because they make the world sound a whole lot more interesting.
However, if this story were true, than it would be a great injustice to the memory of this Shimon who supposedly gave his life to save the Jews.
How many internal injustices are there floating around in the Jewish collective memory? I mean, if it were true, wouldn't it be a more popular story? Like the Jewish Pope story, or Avraham Ben Avraham (Graf Pototzki)?


There's one point that really caught my eye, which is how Shimon Peter did his miracles:
Recently I heard that there are some rabbis that hold that the Tetragrammaton could only be pronounced correctly by someone standing inside the Temple. When that person leaves the Temple, they won't remember how to pronounce the Name.

This idea ties in directly in the story, where it's told that Shimon Peter first goes to the Hekhal part of the temple, writes down the Name, then hides it under his skin and sneaks it out of the temple. Once outside, he learns it. Apparently, he was making sure that he would be able to pronounce the Name outside of the temple.
The true pronunciation of the Name is said to have great power (in a more Kabbalistic sense), which may explain how he performed his miracles - by invoking the Name of God.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
An interesting thing to notice from this story is that Christians were observing the Jewish holidays and connecting events in Jesus life to them. This was so widespread that the church eventually issued edicts against these practices.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There's one point that really caught my eye, which is how Shimon Peter did his miracles:
Recently I heard that there are some rabbis that hold that the Tetragrammaton could only be pronounced correctly by someone standing inside the Temple. When that person leaves the Temple, they won't remember how to pronounce the Name.

This idea ties in directly in the story, where it's told that Shimon Peter first goes to the Hekhal part of the temple, writes down the Name, then hides it under his skin and sneaks it out of the temple. Once outside, he learns it. Apparently, he was making sure that he would be able to pronounce the Name outside of the temple.
Fascinating.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I like the word "legend" that often gets attached to this story. It could also be seen as a "ghost story". Seriously. Something to send chills down the spine on a cold and stormy night.

There's a yiddish expression: Bubbe-meisa. A grandma-story... or an old wives tale. I think this story qualifies as one of those.

Sometimes the midrash contains pearls of wisdom. Sometimes it's just a tall tale. Also, the OP told us, this particular set of Midrash contains some odd stuff in it.

@Harel13 , what do you think about it? Is the midrash in the OP legend? Old wives tale? Maybe a spooky ghost-story?
Since I don't know much about midrashes...

Another thing this looks like is that it looks like a dream. Lets suppose that its purposely written to be like a dream. Could be its someone's dream or could be its an attempt to create a dream from partial knowledge and try to find unknowns by using dream interpretation. The writer might be thinking "Why not try to use dreams to resolve questions and fears?" It doesn't involve any proscribed activities that I know of. Dreams don't have to make sense and yet may sometimes give relief to the dreamer. It could be an attempt to use dreaming as a technology to resolve some questions.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
There's one point that really caught my eye,...
Thank you for pointing this out. The story continues that Shimon Kippah uses the name to perform specific miracles. Not just any miracles, but the same miracles as Jesus.

Does this imply that Jesus knew and used the name?

I looked up stories on two other 1st century miracle workers, and neither used the name. But their miracles were significantly less miraculous. This suggests that Jesus knew the name and used the name.

So ... if the pronunciation is forgotten when a person leaves the temple... how did Jesus get the name out of the heichal?

( assuming all this is true, and with all due respect to Christians/Catholics/Atheists/etc )
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
There's one point that really caught my eye, which is how Shimon Peter did his miracles:
Recently I heard that there are some rabbis that hold that the Tetragrammaton could only be pronounced correctly by someone standing inside the Temple. When that person leaves the Temple, they won't remember how to pronounce the Name.

This idea ties in directly in the story, where it's told that Shimon Peter first goes to the Hekhal part of the temple, writes down the Name, then hides it under his skin and sneaks it out of the temple. Once outside, he learns it. Apparently, he was making sure that he would be able to pronounce the Name outside of the temple.
The true pronunciation of the Name is said to have great power (in a more Kabbalistic sense), which may explain how he performed his miracles - by invoking the Name of God.
"Kabbalistic sense" is not something I understand. I'm sure it means something, but I have been told kabbala is really only for those who are already mature and also expert in other basics. That makes sense to me.

Let me suppose that Shimon is Simon Peter and that Simon Peter has been speaking against the stones of the temple. I'll go wild and guess that maybe he even claims it should never have been built with stones in the first place. He has been claiming that the people are the true temple, so he claims it doesn't matter that Titus has destroyed the stone one. It doesn't matter, because "We" are the true temple mentioned by this and that and so forth. Now we have a source for our symbolism of Shimon stuffing the name under his skin which in the midrash seems like a horror. It symbolizes, possibly parodies, the preaching of Shimon. All of this is surmise and guesswork and just kicking the ball.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Since I don't know much about midrashes...

Another thing this looks like is that it looks like a dream. Lets suppose that its purposely written to be like a dream. Could be its someone's dream or could be its an attempt to create a dream from partial knowledge and try to find unknowns by using dream interpretation. The writer might be thinking "Why not try to use dreams to resolve questions and fears?" It doesn't involve any proscribed activities that I know of. Dreams don't have to make sense and yet may sometimes give relief to the dreamer. It could be an attempt to use dreaming as a technology to resolve some questions.
My opinion? even calling this a dream gives it too much cred.

For all we know this story is collected in the midrash because it's shocking and memorable and went viral and it was written down to show its source, not as a measure of its accuracy.

@Harel13 , does the midrash give the source of the story? a Rabbi?
 
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