Is it Possible to Prove Being the Messiah?

[PruePhillip]

Do you notice the shift?

"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn," (Zechariah 12:10).


The Historical and Literary Context
This prophecy is an oracle about Judah, who at that time was in despair. Zechariah explains that Judah will triumph one day as they did in the time of David when the angel of the Lord went before them (12:1-9).1 However, the oracle shifts in verse 10 where Zechariah states that the inhabitants will look on Yahweh whom they have pierced.

Yes, bible writers shift back and forth from first to second to third person.
Jesus often spoke of himself in the third person, for instance.

So this Judah guy, was he crucified? Did he come back from the dead?
Did he reign over the world? Did the Jews mourn because they killed him?
I am confused.

 

[sooda]

Yes, bible writers shift back and forth from first to second to third person.
Jesus often spoke of himself in the third person, for instance.

So this Judah guy, was he crucified? Did he come back from the dead?
Did he reign over the world? Did the Jews mourn because they killed him?
I am confused.

Judah Maccabee got rid of Antiochus and rededicated the Temple. That's what Zechariah is writing about. Jesus refers to it years later when he spoke of the Abomination of Desolation.

 

[PruePhillip]

Judah Maccabee got rid of Antiochus and rededicated the Temple. That's what Zechariah is writing about. Jesus refers to it years later when he spoke of the Abomination of Desolation.

Yes, Jesus spoke of the Abomination,

Judah Maccabee got rid of Antiochus and rededicated the Temple. That's what Zechariah is writing about. Jesus refers to it years later when he spoke of the Abomination of Desolation.

Jesus said, "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the
holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Do you think Jesus was speaking in the past tense?
Was he warning the people about something that had already happened?
Why should the people flee from a danger long, long passed?

 

[sooda]

Yes, Jesus spoke of the Abomination,


Jesus said, "So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the
holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Do you think Jesus was speaking in the past tense?
Was he warning the people about something that had already happened?
Why should the people flee from a danger long, long passed?

Jesus said to REMEMBER what had happened and when they saw the Abomination of Desolation again, flee to the mountains.

They did leave during the tribulation.

 

[PruePhillip]

Jesus said to REMEMBER what had happened and when they saw the Abomination of Desolation again, flee to the mountains.

They did leave during the tribulation.

I think this is too ambiguous.
Jesus reminded them of what Daniel said - he didn't say Daniel
was speaking of the Greeks. I read this as saying Daniel was
speaking of Jesus' own time.
You are piling one assumption upon another, and ignoring whole
tracts of material.

 

[sooda]

I think this is too ambiguous.
Jesus reminded them of what Daniel said - he didn't say Daniel
was speaking of the Greeks. I read this as saying Daniel was
speaking of Jesus' own time.
You are piling one assumption upon another, and ignoring whole
tracts of material.

You mean like Bel and the Dragon?

Daniel was written during the time of Judah Maccabee and Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It was to encourage the Jews. Jesus would have been familiar with it.

 

[PruePhillip]

You mean like Bel and the Dragon?

Daniel was written during the time of Judah Maccabee and Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It was to encourage the Jews. Jesus would have been familiar with it.

So this is confusing. Daniel wasn't in Babylon. Daniel wasn't writing about Jesus.
Jesus got it all mixed up. Mark wrote the first Gospel about AD80 and Luke (who
died in AD68) quoted Mark. Paul's epistle ca AD50 was just a deep fake.
Daniel wrote about the destruction of Israel 1st-2nd Century AD but he was in the
Greek period. There was no Moses. Abraham never rode a camel. Isaiah never
mentioned Jesus at all - he thought some Jews would be resurrected and redeem
other Jews. David didn't foresee Jesus on the cross because he was speaking of
of his own crucifixion (which proves David lived in the Roman/Greek period.)

It's all super confusing. Are you into Conspiracy Theories?
Watched a funny video weeks ago about what you would have to do to fake the
video of the moon landing - given the state of video tech in 1967-1973 it would be
actually easier to go to the moon and be done with it than fake those videos.

Same with all these crazy theories you subscribe to.

 

[sooda]

So this is confusing. Daniel wasn't in Babylon. Daniel wasn't writing about Jesus.
Jesus got it all mixed up. Mark wrote the first Gospel about AD80 and Luke (who
died in AD68) quoted Mark. Paul's epistle ca AD50 was just a deep fake.
Daniel wrote about the destruction of Israel 1st-2nd Century AD but he was in the
Greek period. There was no Moses. Abraham never rode a camel. Isaiah never
mentioned Jesus at all - he thought some Jews would be resurrected and redeem
other Jews. David didn't foresee Jesus on the cross because he was speaking of
of his own crucifixion (which proves David lived in the Roman/Greek period.)

It's all super confusing. Are you into Conspiracy Theories?
Watched a funny video weeks ago about what you would have to do to fake the
video of the moon landing - given the state of video tech in 1967-1973 it would be
actually easier to go to the moon and be done with it than fake those videos.

Same with all these crazy theories you subscribe to.

The book of Daniel was written in 164-167 BC.

Jesus didn't mix up anything.

 

[sooda]

So this is confusing. Daniel wasn't in Babylon. Daniel wasn't writing about Jesus.
Jesus got it all mixed up. Mark wrote the first Gospel about AD80 and Luke (who
died in AD68) quoted Mark. Paul's epistle ca AD50 was just a deep fake.
Daniel wrote about the destruction of Israel 1st-2nd Century AD but he was in the
Greek period. There was no Moses. Abraham never rode a camel. Isaiah never
mentioned Jesus at all - he thought some Jews would be resurrected and redeem
other Jews. David didn't foresee Jesus on the cross because he was speaking of
of his own crucifixion (which proves David lived in the Roman/Greek period.)

It's all super confusing. Are you into Conspiracy Theories?
Watched a funny video weeks ago about what you would have to do to fake the
video of the moon landing - given the state of video tech in 1967-1973 it would be
actually easier to go to the moon and be done with it than fake those videos.

Same with all these crazy theories you subscribe to.

See early Jewish writings, book of Daniel, information on Daniel at the bottom of the page.

 

[sooda]

I think this is too ambiguous.
Jesus reminded them of what Daniel said - he didn't say Daniel
was speaking of the Greeks. I read this as saying Daniel was
speaking of Jesus' own time.
You are piling one assumption upon another, and ignoring whole
tracts of material.

Daniel, Early Jewish Writings.

Daniel

Go to the bottom of the page.

 

[PruePhillip]

Daniel, Early Jewish Writings.

Daniel

Go to the bottom of the page.

But, but, but... Daniel spoke not about the desecration of the temple but its
DESTRUCTION.
This is the DESTRUCTION of the
1 - temple
2 - Jerusalem
3 - Messiah

This "proves" (going by the philosophy of your link) that the book of Daniel
was written sometime after the Bar Kokba war, 132-135 AD. This was the
end of the Jewish state.
Simon Bar Kosba is your man. HE is the MESSIAH, not some Judah guy
who died three centuries before.
How to prove it? Easy. There are no such things as prophecies - it was
only after 135 we knew that the nation of Israel was finished.

This it known as the Prue Phillip Theory of Daniel
Oh... wait... can't call it a "theory"
Scholars don't want their shoehorning of selected facts called a "theory"
Let's call it the Prue Phillip Revelation of Daniel.

 

[sooda]

But, but, but... Daniel spoke not about the desecration of the temple but its
DESTRUCTION.
This is the DESTRUCTION of the
1 - temple
2 - Jerusalem
3 - Messiah

This "proves" (going by the philosophy of your link) that the book of Daniel
was written sometime after the Bar Kokba war, 132-135 AD. This was the
end of the Jewish state.
Simon Bar Kosba is your man. HE is the MESSIAH, not some Judah guy
who died three centuries before.
How to prove it? Easy. There are no such things as prophecies - it was
only after 135 we knew that the nation of Israel was finished.

This it known as the Prue Phillip Theory of Daniel
Oh... wait... can't call it a "theory"
Scholars don't want their shoehorning of selected facts called a "theory"
Let's call it the Prue Phillip Revelation of Daniel.

Daniel didn't write about the destruction of the Temple. Daniel was written during the time of Judah Maccabee and Antiochus IV.. Antochus did defiled the Temple in 167 BC.

Most prophesy was written after the fact.

 

[JJ50]

Daniel didn't write about the destruction of the Temple. Daniel was written during the time of Judah Maccabee and Antiochus IV.. Antochus did defiled the Temple in 167 BC.

Most prophesy was written after the fact.

That is my opinion too.

 

[sooda]

That is my opinion too.

The writers of Daniel get a lot of the history about Babylon and Nebuchadnezzar wrong...

 

[ChristineM]

Not sure what my "own question" is.
Certainly there's lots of them. I used to be a science teacher.
But I want to disabuse those atheists who think theists are fools.

You asked questions of atheists you you seem unable to answer yourself. As expected

 

[ChristineM]

I suggest you watch a video by Peter Fenwick
clinical psychologist and neurologist who pioneered work on the near death and pre-death experience
I love his observation that patients recall or observe things when there is zero brain function. Learning
about this aspect of humanity is deeply absorbing and humbling - we simply don't know what is
consciousness, and it points to something else within us not understood by science.

Been there, done that? Ask me about it sometime.

Needless to say those "experiences" are while the brain is conscious and cannot occure without brain function. Unless of course he has brain scans and some sort of recording of the patients experience during zero brain function?

 

[wizanda]

Actually, jots and tittles are parts of an alphabet with letters, not part of pictographs so this as an argument is meaningless.

Actually this is the whole point of our on going Biblical topic (Matthew 5:18)...

A yod is a jot, and a jot before a word makes it add 'shall'; adding after makes it add 'my'...

So for example in places like Isaiah 52:13-14, when there was an additional yod on the end of marred משׁחת+י, this made it clearer to be paraphrasing Psalms 89:19-21 'my anointed', 'my servant' - David the Messiah.

If we are just adding pictures, then letters as prefixes are meaningless.

Nothing is meaningless in any form of code, and to assume so is foolish.

A yod is a hand, adding a hand before something lifts it up, or pushes it, so it 'shall' happen... Adding a hand at the end of the word makes it attached to something, so it becomes 'my'.

1. Not because of his name
2. That's not what the name means

The Source of our reality places names symbolically, and it is all for a specific reason, nothing happens by chance.

Hosea meaning Deliverer or Saviour is metaphoric, Moses changing his name to Shall be Deliverer or the Lord Saves (Exodus 23:20-23) clearly happened (Joshua 3:10)...

This is the whole point, we're meant to realize God controls reality, not argue it isn't happening.

In my opinion.

 

[wizanda]

Hit me with your best shot, the clearest, least ambiguous, most unarguable example of all.

Yeshua was meant to cut off Judah for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11), and placing the Curse of Moses on them (Deuteronomy 28)...

Already had done... Judas in Greek is the same word for Judah.

Zechariah 11 basically says: The Leaders no longer honour God, so he will send his Messiah to place the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28) onto them, if they pay the 30 pieces of silver for him, and put it in the Potters field in the House of Israel.

We see this happening, where the 2nd temple was destroyed, they eat each others flesh as prophesied in the Curse; where then they got kicked out, and persecuted from nation to nation as written.

In my opinion.

 

[sooda]

Already had done... Judas in Greek is the same word for Judah.

Zechariah 11 basically says: The Leaders no longer honour God, so he will send his Messiah to place the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28) onto them, if they pay the 30 pieces of silver for him, and put it in the Potters field in the House of Israel.

We see this happening, where the 2nd temple was destroyed, they eat each others flesh as prophesied in the Curse; where then they got kicked out, and persecuted from nation to nation as written.

In my opinion.

You think Judah Maccabee and Judas are one and the same?

 

[PruePhillip]

Been there, done that? Ask me about it sometime.

Needless to say those "experiences" are while the brain is conscious and cannot occure without brain function. Unless of course he has brain scans and some sort of recording of the patients experience during zero brain function?

Think this is the video where Fenwick does say that some "flat line" patients report
things. He uses these clinical experiences to suggest that maybe consciousness
is not in the brain. Whatever - just read a good book on twins - you get the same
humbling feeling there's a lot to the universe we can barely comprehend.
That should be the true lesson from science - the universe is far stranger than we
can comprehend.