Gabriel as Messiah

[Moz]

Hi .

Background.
The trinitarian arguement seems to be that it was God who had to die to cover the sins of man. Only that immense infinite weight could balance the sins of the world.

This is a serious enquiery. I have tried this before but get overwhelmed by the false outrage over even proposing it.

My reasoning, and the Bibles i think, is that perfect life balances perfect life and that once Adams sin is repudiated then inherited sin can be viewed as unrighteous in Gods eyes and he can wipe it out.

Question

If instead of the Son it was the Angel Gabriel who had been sent to earth and born in the flesh in the same manner as Jesus, a perfect life transfered from Heaven, would a faithful sinless life, as defined by the law of Moses, accomplish the same thing Jesus death did?

Would the sin of Adam not be covered by this?

And if not why not?

Peace

 

[LightofTruth]

Hi .

Background.
The trinitarian arguement seems to be that it was God who had to die to cover the sins of man. Only that immense infinite weight could balance the sins of the world.

This is a serious enquiery. I have tried this before but get overwhelmed by the false outrage over even proposing it.

My reasoning, and the Bibles i think, is that perfect life balances perfect life and that once Adams sin is repudiated then inhereted sin can be viewed as unrighteous in Gods eyes and he can wipe it out.

Question

If instead of the Son it was the Angel Gabriel who had been sent to earth and born in the flesh in the same manner as Jesus, a perfect life transfered from Heaven, would a faithful sinless life, as defined by the law of Moses, accomplish the same thing Jesus death did?

Would the sin of Adam not be covered by this?

And if not why not?

Peace

The angel Gabriel already has eternal life. Why would God want to take from Gabriel something he already possesses? Jesus was never in possession of eternal life until he was raised from the dead to die no more.

 

[Moz]

The angel Gabriel already has eternal life. Why would God want to take from Gabriel something he already possesses? Jesus was never in possession of eternal life until he was raised from the dead to die no more.

Hi.
Thanks for the response.
Well i suppose if you discount the prexistence of Jesus then the question is moot. However that is not the majority, or indeed the trinitarian view.

On the point of taking life that he already posses, THAT is why it's a sacrife, an innocent life is given (or taken i suppose) . That is why it's an act of love.

Peace

 

[LightofTruth]

Hi.
Thanks for the response.
Well i suppose if you discount the prexistence of Jesus then the question is moot. However that is not the majority, or indeed the trinitarian view.

On the point of taking life that he already posses, THAT is why it's a sacrife, an innocent life is given (or taken i suppose) . That is why it's an act of love.

Peace

I think the word preexistence is self contradictory. Someone cannot exist before they exist. Trinitarians believe that the man Jesus was created in the womb of Mary. A man who they claim is both fully God and fully man with two minds and two wills.

 

[LightofTruth]

The Messiah has to be the promised seed of Abraham and David.

 

[Moz]

The Messiah has to be the promised seed of Abraham and David.

Hi. I understand your point but surely you realise that if born to Mary the SAME geneology would apply.


And on the pre existence front i think you are being disengenuous in trying to misrepresent the issue. Pre existance obviously is refering to a spiritual existence before the "incarnation" into the flesh. OF course you can't exist before you exist.

Trinitarians believe the pre existent "God the Son" became flesh. Transpose God the Son for the Perfect angel Gabriel and apply the same metric.

Peace.

 

[LightofTruth]

Hi. I understand your point but surely you realise that if born to Mary the SAME geneology would apply.


And on the pre existence front i think you are being disengenuous in trying to misrepresent the issue. Pre existance obviously is refering to a spiritual existence before the "incarnation" into the flesh. OF course you can't exist before you exist.

Trinitarians believe the pre existent "God the Son" became flesh. Transpose God the Son for the Perfect angel Gabriel and apply the same metric.

Peace.

What do you mean by "spiritual existence"?

 

[Moz]

What do you mean by "spiritual existence"?

Hi.

I really want to give you the benifit of the doubt but this sort of obfiscation is what i have encountered before when trying to open up what is a fairly EASY hypothetical senario.

Spirital existence should be pretty self evident in this senario. It means existing as a Spirit, Angel or God,

Just as the trinitarians teach that the Word existed as a spirit (God is Spirit) before the incarnation. Just as the angels exist as spirit creatures.

So swap Gabriel for Jesus and what would happen?
Peace.

 

[Desert Snake]

There are contradictory verses in the nt.

Seems like different rabbis.

The wacky riddler seems to be practicing a type another religion. So contradictions most likely, that.

 

[Desert Snake]

The premise is beyond bizarre.

 

[LightofTruth]

Hi.

I really want to give you the benifit of the doubt but this sort of obfiscation is what i have encountered before when trying to open up what is a fairly EASY hypothetical senario.

Spirital existence should be pretty self evident in this senario. It means existing as a Spirit, Angel or God,

Just as the trinitarians teach that the Word existed as a spirit (God is Spirit) before the incarnation. Just as the angels exist as spirit creatures.

So swap Gabriel for Jesus and what would happen?
Peace.

You are mistaken if you think of a spirit as immaterial. Gabriel has a body.

 

[Moz]

You are mistaken if you think of a spirit as immaterial. Gabriel has a body.

Hi.
I can not understand why you would think that i am saying anything of the sort.
But at least you've given me a way to move on. I agree Gabriel has a body (whatever it is made of)..... now take that Gabriel and incarnate him the SAME way Jesus was.... have him live a sinless life by the Law...... have him killed........ doesn't that accomplish everything Christs death did.


Btw...... I am in no way disparaging Christ or lessoning his sacrifice in this senario. If true, then the Son chosing to come instead of sending a subordinate shows his Love even more.

Peace.

 

[Moz]

I was hoping that a trinitarian would enter the conversation and explain why only Gods life could cover Adams sin. I've read Athanasius' arguments on the subject and he clearly admits that perfect life balances perfect life, then states that because Jesus is God it must be that only God could have done it. Kindergarden circular reasoning that would be thrown out in two seconds if you tried it today.

Surely if God had to sacrifice himself to himself their must be a clear reason why ONLY he could do it.... this would prove Jesus is God.

 

[LightofTruth]

Hi.
I can not understand why you would think that i am saying anything of the sort.
But at least you've given me a way to move on. I agree Gabriel has a body (whatever it is made of)..... now take that Gabriel and incarnate him the SAME way Jesus was.... have him live a sinless life by the Law...... have him killed........ doesn't that accomplish everything Christs death did.


Btw...... I am in no way disparaging Christ or lessoning his sacrifice in this senario. If true, then the Son chosing to come instead of sending a subordinate shows his Love even more.

Peace.

Jesus wasn't incarnate. He was created by being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

 

[sooda]

Hi .

Background.
The trinitarian arguement seems to be that it was God who had to die to cover the sins of man. Only that immense infinite weight could balance the sins of the world.

This is a serious enquiery. I have tried this before but get overwhelmed by the false outrage over even proposing it.

My reasoning, and the Bibles i think, is that perfect life balances perfect life and that once Adams sin is repudiated then inhereted sin can be viewed as unrighteous in Gods eyes and he can wipe it out.

Question

If instead of the Son it was the Angel Gabriel who had been sent to earth and born in the flesh in the same manner as Jesus, a perfect life transfered from Heaven, would a faithful sinless life, as defined by the law of Moses, accomplish the same thing Jesus death did?

Would the sin of Adam not be covered by this?

And if not why not?

Peace

Genesis is an allegory and inherited is spelled with two "I".

 

[Moz]

Jesus wasn't incarnate. He was created by being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary.

Hi
Are you a oneness Pentecostal by any chance? Or do you not believe the Son existed before the birth of the baby Jesus? Why are you bogging down on semantics instead of engaging in the excercise. Was it a perfect life or Gods life that was required as a sacrifice?

The mechanics are very simple. In the orthodox trinitarian view.. .. At it's core a life that was in heaven was transfered to earth.
Peace

Peace.

 

[LightofTruth]

I was hoping that a trinitarian would enter the conversation and explain why only Gods life could cover Adams sin. I've read Athanasius' arguments on the subject and he clearly admits that perfect life balances perfect life, then states that because Jesus is God is must be that only God could have done it. Kindergarden circular reasoning that would be thrown out in two seconds if you tried it today.

Surely if God had to sacrifice himself to himself their must be a clear reason why ONLY he could do it.... this would prove Jesus is God.

The idea is called substitionary atonement. It claims that Christ died in our place so we no longer have to die.

But we all die. The idea of not dying relates to Christ as the resurrection and the life. The faithful believer can be said to "never die" in the sense that he does not remain dead but is resurrected to life eternal.

Substitionary atonement robs Jesus of his glory in overcoming the world by having come in the flesh (sinful flesh) that all man share.

 

[Moz]

Genesis is an allegory and inherited is spelled with two "I".

Hi
Bugger. Can i edit the misspelling? I'm surprised i don't have more to tell the truth. I'm on a phone.

Ok... Treat it as allegory it makes no difference to the excercise. Which will be my reply every time you interject that kunard by the way. Allegory means a story with meaning does it not.
Peace

 

[LightofTruth]

Hi
Are you a oneness Pentecostal by any chance? Or do you not believe the Son existed before the birth of the baby Jesus? Why are you bogging down on semantics instead of engaging in the excercise. Was it a perfect life or Gods life that was required as a sacrifice?

The mechanics are very simple. In the orthodox trinitarian view.. .. At it's core a life that was in heaven was transfered to earth.
Peace

Peace.

Atonement required a man who was of the same nature as all man to live a sinless life. A representative man, not a substitute man. Paul says that the sin in the flesh was condemned by God with the death of His son. if there was no sin in his flesh then how could God condemn that sin by the death of His son?

 

[LightofTruth]

All men are mortal because they all sinned in Adam. Jesus was mortal because he too sinned in Adam by being of the same flesh.