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Scientific Evidence for Universal Common Descent

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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Fossil evidence.
Still speaking of fossil evidence, wikipedia says about the earliest known life forms:
"The earliest known life forms on Earth are putative fossilized microorganisms found in hydrothermal vent precipitates.[1]The earliest time that life forms first appeared on Earth is unknown. They could have lived earlier than 3.77 billion years ago, possibly as early as 4.28 billion years ago,[1] or nearly 4.5 billion years ago according to some;[3][4] in any regards, not long after the oceans formed 4.41 billion years ago, and not long after the formation of the Earth 4.54 billion years ago.[1][2][5][6] The earliest direct evidence of life on Earth are microfossils of microorganisms permineralized in 3.465-billion-year-old Australian Apex chert rocks.[7][8]"

Aside from repeating the possibilities of numbers, now we see the idea stated that the formation of the Earth happened 4.54 billions years ago. Again -- scientists know this how? I find it interesting that they say the earth was "formed." (the formation)
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Why not? After all, isn't it suggested that the first living item came from a chemical substance somehow becoming biological matter, and isn't it the "biological" matter that is supposed to contain "life'? Somehow emerging, jumping, combining from non-living matter (dead, perhaps?) to a one-celled organism which then morphed to apes and humans.
So are you speaking of biological evolution, rather than chemical strata, as if, perhaps, the mountains, lakes, minerals, did not come about in stages gradually, but these are not living, only the first biological matter that turned up from chemical substance (a unicell) first has life. Isn't that right? I appreciate reading your responses, and now that you mention the origin of the universe, apparently many are still pondering over the emergence of the first live unicell. While others wonder if "life" may have dropped wittingly or unwittingly from outer space (i.e., the universe beyond the earth).
It is a typical creationist strategy to roll the origin of the universe, the origin of life on earth and the evolution of life on earth into one package. They are independent phenomena. Cosmology is not a field of biology and evolution biology is not a field of cosmology. The origin of life is involves chemistry and biology. It is pointless and disingenuous to conflate them two or three at a time.

Since we do not know how life originated, you can still hold out hope that it was by divine intervention. That option is still on the table until we can find ways for it to have occurred naturally. Of course, divine intervention is not "your favorite version" by default.

Ultimately, I believe that God started it all, but we do not know how. That is a belief. My belief. There is no evidence what or how God did it. There is no evidence that the supernatural was involved or is required. In discussing the evidence and theories, there is nothing I can say about the role of the supernatural. All I can talk about is the evidence, the theories and what that means. How do you know that is not what we were intended to do. To use our brains, our senses and our knowledge to make observations and drawer reasonable conclusions based on those observations. Why would intelligence appear if it was not intended that it be used?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How do you know this is true? I'm sorry if you feel I have insulted you, but perhaps you could please say how you know this is true, that all life morphed, emerged, or proceeded from a unicellular item that emerged from lifeless water. Thank you. Please do not think I am insulting you, asking you to explain. Thanks again.
Because we can test these ideas again and again. How do you know that a rock will fall when you drop it?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
I have no real problem with Wikipedia so far.
Again, under the subject of Life, it says that,
"Life is a characteristic that distinguishes physical entities that have biological processes, such as signaling and self-sustaining processes, from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (they have died), or because they never had such functions and are classified as inanimate. Various forms of life exist, such as plants, animals, fungi, protists, archaea, and bacteria. The criteria can at times be ambiguous and may or may not define viruses, viroids, or potential synthetic life as "living". Biology is the science concerned with the study of life."
And then it says:
"There is currently no consensus regarding the definition of life."
I am a registered content provider for Wikipedia.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Let me put it to you this way, Jim. When I was in school, my parents, hard working and basically honest people (paid their taxes, didn't steal from others), did not give me a sense of right from wrong. They did not really care what I was learning in school. They cared only that I did 'well.' Because they trusted the school system. And I did pretty well, learning what I was told to learn. They took me to religious services, but again -- no real morality was taught there. No discussion of what the Bible said except to cite a few phrases and sing a few songs. So until I studied the Bible in earnest years later, I had no real sense of these things. That is in reply to teaching evolution. What public schools do and allow is not necessarily what parents should be teaching their children. And the responsibility rests with parents. So a student who wants good grades can and should learn what the schools teach. But if a parent believes in God rather than evolution (as described in brief in the first chapters of Genesis), the responsibility for teaching what is not in the school's purview is up to the parent, if he wants to teach his child these things. If not, then it's kind of up in the air for the child.
What I learned in public school is pretty much the basics of what I write in these posts. I learned from a zoologist who was also a lay speaker in my church. There are lots of Christians that accept the theory and fact of evolution. Rejecting valid science is not a criteria for becoming Christian.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Still speaking of fossil evidence, wikipedia says about the earliest known life forms:
"The earliest known life forms on Earth are putative fossilized microorganisms found in hydrothermal vent precipitates.[1]The earliest time that life forms first appeared on Earth is unknown. They could have lived earlier than 3.77 billion years ago, possibly as early as 4.28 billion years ago,[1] or nearly 4.5 billion years ago according to some;[3][4] in any regards, not long after the oceans formed 4.41 billion years ago, and not long after the formation of the Earth 4.54 billion years ago.[1][2][5][6] The earliest direct evidence of life on Earth are microfossils of microorganisms permineralized in 3.465-billion-year-old Australian Apex chert rocks.[7][8]"

Aside from repeating the possibilities of numbers, now we see the idea stated that the formation of the Earth happened 4.54 billions years ago. Again -- scientists know this how? I find it interesting that they say the earth was "formed." (the formation)

Radiometric dating. For the Earth it would have been formed at the same time as the asteroids formed and by dating the oldest of asteroids we get a date for the Earth. On the Earth there was heating and remelting, that reset the clocks, but even with that the oldest mineral found is 4.3 billion years old:

How Old Is Earth?
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Still speaking of fossil evidence, wikipedia says about the earliest known life forms:
"The earliest known life forms on Earth are putative fossilized microorganisms found in hydrothermal vent precipitates.[1]The earliest time that life forms first appeared on Earth is unknown. They could have lived earlier than 3.77 billion years ago, possibly as early as 4.28 billion years ago,[1] or nearly 4.5 billion years ago according to some;[3][4] in any regards, not long after the oceans formed 4.41 billion years ago, and not long after the formation of the Earth 4.54 billion years ago.[1][2][5][6] The earliest direct evidence of life on Earth are microfossils of microorganisms permineralized in 3.465-billion-year-old Australian Apex chert rocks.[7][8]"

Aside from repeating the possibilities of numbers, now we see the idea stated that the formation of the Earth happened 4.54 billions years ago. Again -- scientists know this how? I find it interesting that they say the earth was "formed." (the formation)
What would you call it? It formed out of a cloud of dust and gas. That is what the entire solar system formed out of, due to the effect of gravity. Or magic that made it look like it was natural forces that did it.

Validated dating techniques are used to determine the age of the material that makes up the Earth. You can look those up on Wikipedia too.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
I wonder about a solid basis for believing the first sentences above, before we go any further. How do they figure out that
"...the universe as we know it started about 13.7 billion years ago, but the Earth and sun weren't formed until about 4.5 billion years ago. So the universe is about three times as old as the sun and Earth."
I know that you have mentioned that you made high grades in school or at least we are to infer that from your mention of being an honor student, but how long ago was that? Have you not studied any of this? If it was a fairly long time ago, then perhaps this would all be new information for you. But if you are going to challenge the position of science on these matters, I would expect you would have studied it on your own, at the very least. You sound capable of doing it, and if what you said is true, you should be capable of doing it.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
It does not rule out common ancestry. It only indicates that at some point, due to horizontal gene transfer among microbial populations, the base of the tree becomes obscured. There is still much evidence that indicates common ancestry, despite this obscurity. Common ancestry is also evidence for more complex groups and there isn't the proliferation of horizontal gene transfer among those groups to obscure the relationships.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
The reason I agree with teaching evolution theory in public schools is because that’s currently part of the common framework in the sciences. The reason I’m against teaching intelligent design is because its purpose is explicitly in opposition to evolution theories.
Not to forget, that intelligent design is religion and science has no way to test for the supernatural.
 

Dan From Smithville

Monsters! Monsters from the id! Forbidden Planet
Staff member
Premium Member
Let me put it to you this way, Jim. When I was in school, my parents, hard working and basically honest people (paid their taxes, didn't steal from others), did not give me a sense of right from wrong. They did not really care what I was learning in school. They cared only that I did 'well.' Because they trusted the school system. And I did pretty well, learning what I was told to learn. They took me to religious services, but again -- no real morality was taught there. No discussion of what the Bible said except to cite a few phrases and sing a few songs. So until I studied the Bible in earnest years later, I had no real sense of these things. That is in reply to teaching evolution. What public schools do and allow is not necessarily what parents should be teaching their children. And the responsibility rests with parents. So a student who wants good grades can and should learn what the schools teach. But if a parent believes in God rather than evolution (as described in brief in the first chapters of Genesis), the responsibility for teaching what is not in the school's purview is up to the parent, if he wants to teach his child these things. If not, then it's kind of up in the air for the child.
You did not understand the difference between right and wrong until you were older and started studying the Bible? Were you in trouble a lot? Did you have a lot of run ins with the law? I mean before your earnest Bible study?

I have not and would not teach children that the story in Genesis was an infallible, accurate depiction of actual, historical events that took place just like the story says. I could not do that and live with myself. I have a pretty good sense of right and wrong.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
This is what I’ve been trying to say.

The practice of classification and the theory of evolution, and what the demise of Charles Darwin's tree of life hypothesis means for both of them
If the tree of life (TOL) was the thesis and the web of life (WOL) its antithesis, then we are now in the period of disciplinary synthesis. A more realistic (less idealistic and dogmatic) microbial systematics and evolutionary theory will inevitably emerge. WOL advocates (WOLers) will be unable to claim total victory, however, and TOLers will be tempted to redefine what it was they were defending in order to avoid the appearance of defeat (e.g. Galtier & Daubin 2008). Preferable to this, epistemologically and ontologically, would be the adoption of a pluralist perspective, from which this controversy can be seen as but a stage in the development of a more powerful and general reading of Darwin's theory.
 
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Jim

Nets of Wonder
And this:

The practice of classification and the theory of evolution, and what the demise of Charles Darwin's tree of life hypothesis means for both of them
After all, evolution itself could have been (as far as data available to Darwin could show) web-like, or comb-like, with ‘the characters which naturalists consider as showing true affinity between any two or more species’ owing their dispositions among living things to interspecies transfer or parallel and convergent evolution. These too could be considered ‘descent with modification’, but not Darwin's version of it. And, since trees will inevitably emerge from the data when we order them with tree-building algorithms, we might be just fooling ourselves about such order being naturally embedded in the data.
In fact, LUCA is illusory. If there is as much LGT as we WOLers think there is, the proper way to model prokaryotic evolution over 4 Gyr is as a single, albeit highly structured, recombining population, not an asexual clade. To accept this is to abandon the concept of a single tree with a single root (or at least a single rooted tree of genomes) because it means that different gene families trace to gene-family-specific ancestors that existed in different genomes at different times in the past. There will have been no single common ancestral cell whose genome harboured a direct ancestor (either the last common ancestor or their lineal predecessors) of all the genes present in all genomes today. Indeed such an ancestral cell need not have contained lineal ancestors of any of the genes around today, and is thus basically unknowable. The many attempts one still sees to reconstruct its genome are groundless, and to say the LUCA was a population is meaningless. Of course populations such as ‘all prokaryotes today’ have populations (all prokaryotes Y years ago) as their ancestors in this loose sense, but there is no principled way to designate the population at some particular value of Y as ‘LUCA’.
 
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usfan

Well-Known Member
Here is a summary of the evidence presented, so far, for the theory of common descent, with my summary rebuttal.

1. Canidae study.
Canids remain canids, with a wide range of morphological (looks like) variability. But they are all descended from the same parent stock, as evidenced by the mtDNA, they are able to breed, and they share the same genomic architecture. There does seem to be some variations in chromosome numbers, but the basic genetic architecture.. the core haplogroup that they all came from.. is traceable and evidenced through genetic analysis. But there is NO EVIDENCE that they are 'evolving' to or from another phylogenetic structure. Their ancestors were canids. Their descendants are, and forever will be, canids. There is nothing evidentiary to suggest otherwise.

2. Phylogenetic Tree
This is a graphical illustration of the BELIEF in common descent. It does not provide any evidence FOR the belief, just illustrates it with plausibility and speculation. There is no evidence that evolutionary changes at the genomic level are even possible. That is conjecture and imagination, not observable, repeatable scientific methodology. It is circular reasoning. It is drawing an imagined 'tree', and using that imaginary design as proof of itself.

3. Vestigiality
The irrational, circular conclusion that unknown organs are 'vestigial', or remnants of a previous incarnation. I examined this argument in greater detail in post #402.

"Since it is not possible to unambiguously identify useless structures, and since the structure of the argument used is not scientifically valid, I conclude that ‘vestigial organs’ provide no special evidence for the theory of evolution." ~zoologist S. R. Scadding

4. Time and Mutation
Greater detail in post #401.
"No structural changes in a genome have ever been observed, so time is suggested as a system of change. But time has no mechanism of change. It is a passive factor, that only supports degradation, as entropy returns all matter and energy to simpler forms."
"Mutations happen all the time. They are almost always deleterious, with negative consequences for the organism. A few are neutral, but there is no scientific way that structural changes in the genome can be explained by mutation."

5. E.coli study
This study has been presented several times. It is supposed to prove that traits are 'created' on the fly, by organisms adapting to changes in their environment. It is not a speciation event. That claim is refuted by the scientists who did the study. The study also denies any knowledge of a specific gene, either changing or created to digest citrates. That is merely hypothesized. I examined this study in specific detail back in post #250. There is nothing here. It is ASSERTED and ALLEGED by others, that this 'proves evolution!', but the ones doing the study make no such claim, and close examination reveals that the claim of 'proof of evolution!', is a deceptive lie. It is not evidence of common descent at all. No genes were identified as 'new!', no speciation took place. The organism in the study is still e.coli, with the same genetic architecture, drawing from the same gene pool.

from the study:
Hall's genetic analysis indicated the underlying mutation was complex, but he was ultimately unable to identify the precise changes or genes involved, leading him to hypothesize activation of a cryptic transporter gene.

So, there is NO EVIDENCE of 'new!' genes, just common adaptation. It is like the moths on trees.. dark ones get 'selected' to survive, and the traits that already exist are selected, either naturally or by human engineering. This is evidence of normal adaptation, or micro evolution, which is not disputed by anyone. But it does not evidence or support the LEAP to macro evolution, or a vertical change in the genetic structure.. adding genes, chromosomes, etc. No study has EVER OBSERVED any such genomic changes in the parent architecture. The BELIEF that organisms can add, subtract, create, or conjure up 'new!' genetic information is unsupported by scientific observation.

6. Statistical computer model calculating likelihood of monkey/human common ancestry.

I covered this in greater detail in post #1456.

"Everything is based on the ASSUMPTION of common descent. The cherry picked samples, the molecular structures, assumed to be related, then coming up with the 'odds', that this is what happened.
From the abstract:
..it becomes reasonable to ask the specific question of how strongly molecular sequence data support the inference that the human species shares CA with other primates.

..reasonable, indeed. It is even more reasonable to ask how any statistical or visual 'similarity!' can infer common descent..

That is the crux of this study. It is a computer model, using sampled proteins from chimps and humans, and comparing their structure. Descendancy is assumed, and a calculation is contrived to arrive at a number..

The significance of this number can only be described as 'a trivial consequence of similarity'."

All around these pathetic props of belief are pages and pages of heckling, ridicule, straw men, and deflections, that only underscore the IMPOTENCE of the evidence, facts, and reasoning behind this 19th century religious belief.

Heckle and ridicule if you want. It does not provide evidence for your beliefs, and is anti-science at its core.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Ok. Time for a reset. Everyone is off ignore, even the most hostile hecklers. I may skip over the more venemous, ad hom laced rants, but I'll see the posts. You can belittle me all you want, and I'll notice it, now. ;)
  • Evidence is the call.
  • Facts and reason are the tools.
  • Scientific methodology is the system of inquiry.
  • Knowledge & Truth is the goal.
I'll try to summarize the main points offered, from time to time, to see how this quest for Scientific, evidentiary based Truth is going. And, i will expose fallacies and deflections from this quest. Pages and pages of deflections with no evidence, are offered for this theory of origins.

The 4 B's
  • Bluff
  • Belief
  • Bleating
  • Belittling
I see a lot of the 4 B's in this debate, that is supposed to be about a scientific theory. Ignorance, Indoctrination, jihadist zeal, parroted & memorized talking points, outrage, and pretended expertise substitute for facts and reason, among the True Believers in common ancestry.

Show me the Science. Talk is cheap. Beliefs are not facts. Bluff is a tactic of propagandists and liars. Enough with the 4 B's! Present facts and reason, or expose yourself as a heckler and propagandist.

Your call.
 

Jim

Nets of Wonder
The practice of classification and the theory of evolution, and what the demise of Charles Darwin's tree of life hypothesis means for both of them
That ‘common ancestry’ does not entail a ‘common ancestor’ is perhaps a subtle point—one that Woese and co-authors recently explicated very nicely in the case of the genetic code by the way (Vestigian et al. 2006).
Collective evolution and the genetic code
A dynamical theory for the evolution of the genetic code is presented, which accounts for its universality and optimality. The central concept is that a variety of collective, but non-Darwinian, mechanisms likely to be present in early communal life generically lead to refinement and selection of innovation-sharing protocols, such as the genetic code.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
Regarding the "Creationist!' label, used as a pejorative and poison the well fallacy:
1. Most (all?) believers in God attribute Creative Power to this Entity.
2. Most theists 'educated' in progressive institutions believe in common ancestry.
3. This is not an 'Atheists vs Christians!', flame war, but an examination of a scientific theory.
4. Deflecting with 'Creationist!' labels is irrelevant, does NOT provide evidence for common ancestry, and is an attempt to discredit with pejorative smears.
5. Are all Believers in Common Ancestry godless atheists? No. So why pretend the THEORY of common ancestry is opposed to belief in God or a Creative Force?
6. Common Ancestry is the topic here.. evidence for it, as a scientific theory.
 

usfan

Well-Known Member
I repeat the call for evidence:

1. Pick one point
2. Defend it with quotes, references, or argument.
3. Leave it to skeptical scrutiny from others.
4. Ditch ad hom and other fallacies.

Use layman terms, if possible, but some here can follow more industry specific terminology. Make it as simple or complex as you need, to support your point.

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