EVERLASTING OLD COVENANT (Jew V Christian)

[Tumah]

Salvation from Hell is the salvation above all others.

Even if that were true, it would still be irrelevant. Not every salvation is salvation from Hell.

Paul doesn't annul the Law (or why else would Catholic moral theology be built around the Ten Commandments ?),

You're defeating your own point. There are way more than 10 commandments. There are hundreds more. Yet Catholic theology is only built on 10 of them. Because Paul annulled the Law.

he merely points out its limitations - anyone (of any religion) who is saved from Hell, is saved by Jesus's death on the cross, not by the Law.

And obviously he was wrong. as there's literally no basis for this viewpoint.

 

[Catholicus]

Corruption in my eyes is NOT everlasting. You have twisted my words and you clearly do not believe God is Perfection. . God blesses everlasting generations of humanity but we have freewill and if we wish to do bad things or behave counter to this Blessing then that is up to us. God's promise and Blessing are eternal and unique unless you believe that God somehow got the words wrong. Genesis 9:6 reminds us that even the murderer must be dealt with by human hands and therefore sin on this Earth, which is human against human is to be dealt with by humanity not God as God in 9:6 makes it clear this world is up to us and we strive and have striven to weed our corruption, over the millennia .
The only sin we could possibly committ against God, IMO, is to be unfruitful to self and others ie to ignore God's Blessing, but then God already knows this, already knew we would be like this and so waits. In the next life we will have to make an account of our behaviour. Revelation, a much later text than Genesis has no relevance in my eyes. The first blessing and Covenant of God are the only ones God gave to the whole of Humanity. Any future blessings or covenants are just wishful thinking in the eyes of humanity.

if you believe in Jesus as anything other than an ordinary human being, you are basically saying that God sent his Son to heal the world and yet all that really happened was yet further rifts and splits in Human Society. God therefore miscalculated the effect of sending his Son and couldn't have foreseen for example the Crusades etc That is not the sort of God I believe in.
One Blessing, One Covenant, no religious instruction, and no future messiahs or new heavens/earths. God is not involved in this world. No one has ever been sent and we should return to study the original Blessing and Covenant more carefully as I have done . My link provides more info on what I have learnt if you are interested. .

The Crusades were a result of people (in this case, Mohammed and his followers) NOT accepting Jesus Christ.

Jesus foresaw that He would be opposed and rifts and splits would arise; But the achievement of His death and resurrection far, far outweighs any downsides.

All the real improvements in the world this last two millennia are directly or indirectly the result of Christianity.

Should God have left the world in the truly appalling state it was in the at the time of the Caesars ?

 

[Catholicus]

Even if that were true, it would still be irrelevant. Not every salvation is salvation from Hell.


You're defeating your own point. There are way more than 10 commandments. There are hundreds more. Yet Catholic theology is only built on 10 of them. Because Paul annulled the Law.


And obviously he was wrong. as there's literally no basis for this viewpoint.

As the Ten Commandments are a very significant part of the Law, how then did Paul "annul" it ?

I realise that there are about 600 other commandments - many of them about trifles.

Jesus said that the whole Law and Prophets could be summed-up in two Commandments: the "Hear, O Israel" and "Love your neighbour as yourself."

People who keep those two, fulfil the whole Law - those who don't, are breaking it fatally, however many hundreds of other commandments they do keep.

BTW no one has ever kept the Law, hence the need for a Saviour.

 

[Catholicus]

But what you are quoting is not an in context opinion which explores exactly what was said, one which would disagree with the contention that "there will be no Messiah born on earth again."

If you keep reading afterwards, what the Tanna actually wrote was ובעונותינו שרבו יצאו מהם מה שיצאו -- "because of our sin those time frames increased" so cite them as supporting a chronology and ignore that their position was that chronology is not what is in effect is duplicitous.


Based on the evidence in the torah it is clear that Jesus was no messiah at all as he lacked the personal and theological qualifications delineated, and did not, in his actions, fulfill the role.

What then did Jesus lack ? What didn't He do that He should have done ?

The truth is, there will be no better Messiah - nor indeed any other Messiah at all !

 

[Rival]

I realise that there are about 600 other commandments - many of them about trifles.

This comment right here shows your total ignorance of Torah. I challenge you to actually read it sometime and then tell us it's about trifles. If laws pertaining to murder, marriage, rape, property damage, animal welfare and so on strike you as trifles then I can only guess what kind of person you must be.

 

[Catholicus]

And I notice you abandon all mention of your claims about the talmud. Good choice.

You act like this is something new. Sigh. It has all been well documented.

OK, start here. Then here. And of course, he wasn't anointed with the actual oil required, plus he failed in the tasks that a future messiah will accomplish. So there's that.


No, the thing is, they don't. They have nothing to do with the messiah in most cases. Picking verses that tell a sad story and decided that they are messianic doesn't make them so. And Judaism has no notion of a second coming.
Then comparing texts written later designed to echo earlier works and saying that somehow they are related is like writing a book after the lottery number is played and including the numbers and saying that this confirms that the book is prophetic.

Judaism DOES have a notion of the End of the World.

That's what Jesus's Second Coming will be. The prophet Daniel foretold it.

The Jewish texts about oil, etc may of course be merely symbolic - have you considered that ?

 

[Catholicus]

This comment right here shows your total ignorance of Torah. I challenge you to actually read it sometime and then tell us it's about trifles. If laws pertaining to murder, marriage, rape, property damage, animal welfare and so on strike you as trifles then I can only guess what kind of person you must be.

Oh, those monstrous people who wear clothing made from mixed fibres ! Oh, those fiends who eat shellfish or ham sandwiches !

Anything of value in the Torah is of course contained in Church doctrine - which explicitly forbids rape, cruelty to animals, murder etc

 

[Catholicus]

Sometimes I wonder what Christians think the messiah is actually supposed to do.

Save all human beings from everlasting torment in Hell.

The Torah can't.

 

[Rival]

Oh, those monstrous people who wear clothing made from mixed fibres ! Oh, those fiends who eat shellfish or ham sandwiches !

Anything of value in the Torah is of course contained in Church doctrine - which explicitly forbids rape, cruelty to animals, murder etc

Have you ever bothered to research why the laws against mixing are applied? Have you read the Jewish take on it or just read it and said 'That's weird, it's obviously nonsense'? If you did that then I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder what your faith is all about as you seem to believe that the god you worship just gave the Israelite people nonsense commands he didn't really intend them to keep or mean anything. And if you believe that then I'm sorry.

 

[Catholicus]

Concerning the death of Julius Caesar, Servius, commenting on Vergil (Georg. 1.466.1–5), says that there was a failure/disappearance/weakness of the sun on the day before the Ides of March from the 6th hour until night.

Caesar's son, Octavian (Augustus) was given the title divi filius, or son of god.

The story of the darkness at the crucifixion of Jesus is probably a counter-myth.

Even the events on the day of his crucifixion have all the elements of a Roman triumph, including the destination at the end being 'the place of the skull' (in Rome, the triumph ended at the Capitoline Hill, literally, the Hill of the Skull.)

Counter-myth ? That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Triumphant Roman generals weren't crucified. They were given banquets - none is recorded in the Gospel accounts of Jesus's death.

 

[Rival]

Save all human beings from everlasting torment in Hell.

The Torah can't.

I think you are very confused about the role of Moshiach. Nowhere does the Tankh, anywhere, say that the Moshiach will be a human sacrifice, die for sins, be a god, be born of a virgin, have a second coming, save people from hell and take away the need for Temple worship. Nowhere. In contrast, the Moshiach is said to bring offerings to the Third Temple, be a King (a real one), and a human with human progeny. He will ingather the Israelite Tribes, unify them, institute Temple worship, allow the people to study Torah in peace, bring peace as a whole and the nations will know that G-d is G-d. None of this has happened.

 

[Catholicus]

Have you ever bothered to research why the laws against mixing are applied? Have you read the Jewish take on it or just read it and said 'That's weird, it's obviously nonsense'? If you did that then I'm sorry, but I can't help but wonder what your faith is all about as you seem to believe that the god you worship just gave the Israelite people nonsense commands he didn't really intend them to keep or mean anything. And if you believe that then I'm sorry.

The Jewish people were given commands useful for them at the time. Many of those commands have no universal or lasting significance.

BTW when did you last stone a woman caught in adultery or execute a homosexual ? - the Torah says you should, you know.

 

[Catholicus]

Yes, you have.


That is, indeed, your understanding. Good luck with that.

His seed is the Davidic lineage/kingship which will be reestablished in the future and last forever. "I will establish your offspring forever, I will confirm your throne for all generations." Or, as the targum says ( you remember the targum, right?) "עַד עָלְמָא אַתְקֵין בְּנַיִךְ וְאֶבְנֵי לְדָר וְדָר כּוּרְסֵי מַלְכוּתָךְ לְעָלְמִין"


No, when the servant is talked about in a context in which it is identified with the nation (as it frequently is in Isaiah 53) it refers to the nation, Where there is another antecedent which is connected (David, Eliezer, or whoever) then it is that person. Never is Jesus mentioned, so never is Jesus intended. QED.

The rabbinic commentators explain that the quality days of David's youth WERE cut off as he was chased by Saul and forced to grow up rather early and his Davidic kingship-dynasty was ended well before its culmination.
As to verse 27, the wording is clear that God will GIVE him the status of 1st born. Not that he has it by birth.

The passages in Isaiah referring to the Suffering Servant apply perfectly to Jesus. And clearly imply an individual's suffering.

 

[Catholicus]

I think you are very confused about the role of Moshiach. Nowhere does the Tankh, anywhere, say that the Moshiach will be a human sacrifice, die for sins, be a god, be born of a virgin, have a second coming, save people from hell and take away the need for Temple worship. Nowhere. In contrast, the Moshiach is said to bring offerings to the Third Temple, be a King (a real one), and a human with human progeny. He will ingather the Israelite Tribes, unify them, institute Temple worship, allow the people to study Torah in peace, bring peace as a whole and the nations will know that G-d is G-d. None of this has happened.

Oh, but it has ! But not in the narrow, literal way that the Jewish People imagined.

As the Gospel is God's Word and Design, why shouldn't it add the Incarnation and Crucifixion to the previous Jewish understanding of the Messiah ?

 

[shunyadragon]

Evolution refers to that of new species.

No, evolution refers to the natural history of life on earth.

Since the arrival of homo sapiens, humanity has not evolved physically; nor spiritually, since spiritual laws (e.g. "Thou shalt not kill") are even more immutable than the laws of physics.

Too simplistic of a generalization.

First, Spiritual Laws as found in the scriptures of the world are neither immutable nor actually consistent. For example "Thou shalt not kill" is inconsistently defined as to what is 'wrongful death' over time, even though some form of this law exists in all human cultures.

The present view of science is that life constantly evolves, and homo sapiens has and is evolving over time with an unclear well defined beginning of our species, with various sub-species existing at the same time, such as Neanderthals, and mixing over time.

The spiritual, or cultural, evolution of the cultures of human is well documented in human history.

 

[Rival]

The Jewish people were given commands useful for them at the time. Many of those commands have no universal or lasting significance.

BTW when did you last stone a woman caught in adultery or execute a homosexual ? - the Torah says you should, you know.

The Torah is an everlasting covenant. It's not just for one particular time, it's forever. Read Psalm 119; David waxes lyrical about how awesome the Torah is.

Deuteronomy 5:26-30
Would that their hearts be like this, to fear Me and to keep all My commandments all the days, that it might be well with them and with their children forever!
Go say to them, 'Return to your tents.'
But as for you, stand here with Me, and I will speak to you all the commandments, the statutes, and the ordinances which you will teach them, that they may do them in the land which I give them to possess.
Keep them to perform [them] as the Lord your God has commanded you; do not turn aside either to the right or to the left.
In all the way which the Lord, your God, has commanded you, you shall go, in order that you may live and that it may be well with you, and so that you may prolong your days in the land you will possess.

Psalm 119:160-
The beginning of Your word is true, and each of Your righteous judgments is eternal.

1 Chronicles 16:14-17
He is the Lord our God; throughout the earth are His judgments.
Remember His covenant forever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations.
[The covenant] which He had made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac. :
And He set it up for Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.


It's been a good thousand years since any Jewish people did that being that there's no Sanheidrin.

 

[shunyadragon]

Only Jesus is MORE than a prophet - only Jesus has died for us.

Actually a more objective view is all the messiahs lived a human life and died for the spiritual advancement of humanity. If a messiah lives they will also die.

 

[Rival]

Oh, but it has ! But not in the narrow, literal way that the Jewish People imagined.

'Yeah guys, it has happened, really! Just not the way G-d said it would!'

As the Gospel is God's Word and Design, why shouldn't it add the Incarnation and Crucifixion to the previous Jewish understanding of the Messiah ?

Because no-one needed anymore understanding, the prophesies are very clear. If Jesus did none of the stuff the Moshiach is supposed to do according to the Hebrew Scripture, he's not what he claims. How was anyone supposed to judge him if what you say is true? Anyone could say 'I'm the messiah; I know the Tanakh says this, but really it means this and also this that it never said, but you're just finding out now because I told you so.' Not very convincing.

 

[Tumah]

As the Ten Commandments are a very significant part of the Law, how then did Paul "annul" it ?

I realise that there are about 600 other commandments - many of them about trifles.

Jesus said that the whole Law and Prophets could be summed-up in two Commandments: the "Hear, O Israel" and "Love your neighbour as yourself."

People who keep those two, fulfil the whole Law - those who don't, are breaking it fatally, however many hundreds of other commandments they do keep.

G-d gives us 600+ Laws and you claim that 10 of them are very significant in comparison to the other 600+ which you call "trifles". Then you further knock them down to two, because some guy said so while still claiming that you haven't annulled the Law!

Imagine your dad gives you a grocery list with 20 things on it:
- Chicken
- Orange Juice
- Rice
- Flour
- Eggs
- Baking Soda
- Cocoa powder
- BBQ sauce
- Bread crumbs
- Bottled water
- Sugar
- Kit-Kats
- Canola oil
- Cola
- Mayonaise
- Duck Sauce
- Potatoes
- Garlic
- Onion powder
- Parsley

So you go to the store and you meet your friend there. He checks out your list and says to you, 'Looks like your dad just wants supper. Just get the Chicken, the sauce, the potatoes and the Cola". Then you meet another friend at the counter and he's like, 'just get flour and water, everything else is trifles!'

Guess who's not getting supper tonight.

BTW no one has ever kept the Law, hence the need for a Saviour.

That's absurd and demeaning to G-d.

 

[rosends]

What then did Jesus lack ? What didn't He do that He should have done ?

He lacked personal quality and ability, and failed to fulfill Jewish messianic expectations.

Here is one summary of some relevant points.