World Peace and Religion

[CG Didymus]

How do you KNOW why people become inactive? Why do you think it is because of the Baha'i community? I cannot speak for others but it seems to me that if they were attached to their older religion they would drop out of the Baha'i Faith and go back to that older religion. I think some people just have personal problems or life circumstances that preclude them attending activities.

This is what I said:

CG Didymus said: ↑
"Dead" wrong? People that have joined the Baha'i Faith but become inactive or resign are probably not attached to their old religion. They probably had high hopes for things being better within the Baha'i Faith then their old religion. What was their problem with the Baha'i community?​

If I say "probably" that doesn't mean "I know" I'm just taking a guess at it. And then I asked you, What do you think their problem was? And you're sticky with them going back to their old religion? You don't see any problems within the Baha'i community? None? That would be great, but I don't think that is true. That is why I'm saying that fallible people trying to bring in new laws from God and to enforce those laws is going to be a problem.

But the bigger question is... Will the Baha'is be able to bring the religions, nations and all the diverse people together to live in peace and harmony? The Baha'i Peace is decades old now. What's been happening to Baha'is initiating peace? Or, are they?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But the bigger question is... Will the Baha'is be able to bring the religions, nations and all the diverse people together to live in peace and harmony? The Baha'i Peace is decades old now. What's been happening to Baha'is initiating peace? Or, are they?

That is God's Promise and the answer to your question is in what Baha'u'llah said;

"..The mystic and wondrous Bride, hidden ere this beneath the veiling of utterance, hath now, by the grace of God and His divine favor, been made manifest even as the resplendent light shed by the beauty of the Beloved. I bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof manifest and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of all Worlds."

I see that is directed at each individual and leaves us no excuse to leave it all to what others are doing.

All the best, Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't see any problems within the Baha'i community? None? That would be great, but I don't think that is true. That is why I'm saying that fallible people trying to bring in new laws from God and to enforce those laws is going to be a problem.

I did not say I do not see any problems. What I said is that I am not involved with the Baha'i community so I do not know what goes on with Baha'is.

I did not say that fallible people trying to bring in new laws from God and trying to enforce those laws is not going to be a problem. It might be difficult, but I trust Baha'u'llah so I believe it will be accomplished eventually.

“Warn and acquaint the people, O Servant, with the things We have sent down unto Thee, and let the fear of no one dismay Thee, and be Thou not of them that waver. The day is approaching when God will have exalted His Cause and magnified His testimony in the eyes of all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth. Place, in all circumstances, Thy whole trust in Thy Lord, and fix Thy gaze upon Him, and turn away from all them that repudiate His truth. Let God, Thy Lord, be Thy sufficing succorer and helper. We have pledged Ourselves to secure Thy triumph upon earth and to exalt Our Cause above all men, though no king be found who would turn his face towards Thee.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 248-249

But the bigger question is... Will the Baha'is be able to bring the religions, nations and all the diverse people together to live in peace and harmony? The Baha'i Peace is decades old now. What's been happening to Baha'is initiating peace? Or, are they?

Like I said, I have no idea what Baha'is are doing right now but I believe that the Peace Plan will eventually unfold as Baha'u'llah promised. That promise is also given in the Old Testament...

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

[CG Didymus]

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Well a "child is born" and a "son is given" sure fits into the narrative that the NT shaped to make it sound like that prophesy is about Jesus. And that didn't and hasn't worked out. And how well have Christians lived up to the commands of Jesus about be loving? Not too good. So that's why I have so little confidence, that even though the Baha'i writing has so much talk about love and establishing peace, that because it is left up to people, will the Baha'i people actually take it to heart and apply the principles to a high enough degree to bring about a peaceful world?

I doubt that many of the rich and powerful in the U.S. will gladly and voluntarily want to share their wealth with the world. They barely want to share with those that work for them. Plus, for the good of the world, they'd have to start using environmentally safe practices and products. Here in the U.S. they already start complaining about the Socialist agenda of the "left". How you gonna get them and those that are on the "right" to change? Is Tony right and that the Baha'i think it will take a major upheaval to get people to adopt the Baha'i ideas for peace?

 

[Trailblazer]

Well a "child is born" and a "son is given" sure fits into the narrative that the NT shaped to make it sound like that prophesy is about Jesus. And that didn't and hasn't worked out.

It cannot be about Jesus because the government was not upon the shoulder of Jesus.

Mark 12:17 And Jesus answering said un to them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

No, what is in that prophecy has not worked out because it was not something Jesus was supposed to do , it is about Baha'u'llah. But it is about the Messianic Age so much of what it says will happen is either only beginning to happen or has not yet happened.

And how well have Christians lived up to the commands of Jesus about be loving? Not too good. So that's why I have so little confidence, that even though the Baha'i writing has so much talk about love and establishing peace, that because it is left up to people, will the Baha'i people actually take it to heart and apply the principles to a high enough degree to bring about a peaceful world?

Like I said, I believe it will happen because Baha'u'llah said it will happen, not because of what I see the Baha'is doing right now. It is FAITH that causes me to believe it will happen, not faith in people, but faith in God and Baha'u'llah.

But why are you so concerned about the future anyway? I never think about the future. I live FULLY in the present.

I doubt that many of the rich and powerful in the U.S. will gladly and voluntarily want to share their wealth with the world. They barely want to share with those that work for them. Plus, for the good of the world, they'd have to start using environmentally safe practices and products. Here in the U.S. they already start complaining about the Socialist agenda of the "left". How you gonna get them and those that are on the "right" to change? Is Tony right and that the Baha'i think it will take a major upheaval to get people to adopt the Baha'i ideas for peace?

It is possible that there will be a major upheaval or it is possible that the changes will take place gradually... Nobody really knows so I see no point in speculating. If/when it happens we will know. There are certain indications that it will be an upheaval but nobody knows when or what or where.

“The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 118-119

 

[CG Didymus]

But why are you so concerned about the future anyway? I never think about the future. I live FULLY in the present.

It is possible that there will be a major upheaval or it is possible that the changes will take place gradually... Nobody really knows so I see no point in speculating. If/when it happens we will know. There are certain indications that it will be an upheaval but nobody knows when or what or where.

Why be a Baha'i if you're not concerned about the future? And really, you live "FULLY' for today? There's nothing more you could do to make right now and tomorrow better for yourself and others? And Baha'is know that the world is heading for disaster and have the answer? Is that speculating about the future, do Baha'is know the future if we keep going on the path we are going and know how to avert some of the problems? It's like global climate change... no use speculating? Or, should we try and do something the will reduce the problem? Come on Trailblazer, I would think if the Baha'i Faith is the truth and has the answers, Baha'is should be at the forefront of helping create the changes needed to make for a better tomorrow.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

This is a lesson given by Christ. Christ said John the baptist was Elijah and that Elijah always comes first.

It is obvious John was not the flesh of Elijah, thus Christ taught us that it is the Spiritual attributes that return.

It is also the Spirtual Attributes of a Messenger that returns, not the flesh of the Mesenger. Christ also taught this as, the 'first and last', 'alpha and omega', 'beginning and end'. Also the 'flesh amounts to nothing, it is the spirit that is life'. Muhammad (peace be upon him) was that same Christ Spirit, a return of Christ. The Bab and Baha'u'llah likewise.

Muhammad gave the same lessons.

Regards Tony

I agree that Yeshua (pbuh) will not return in the same body he came in the first time, but I believe that his spirit will nevertheless return, not just his spiritual attributes.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Does that mean that you believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that the physical body of Jesus ascended to heaven and that the physical body of Jesus is going to RETURN?

Nope. I believe his spirit will return with another physical body.

Okay, but what was he supposed to do?

He will establish justice and fight with Yeshua (pbuh) against the Antichrist.

Why do you think that Muslims differ in their beliefs about Muhammad?

Why does anyone differ in their beliefs about any number of things?

What did Muhammad say about Himself in the Qur’an?

Muhammad (pbuh) didn't say anything about himself in the Qur'an because he didn't write the Qur'an.

Who did He claim to be?

God's Messenger to his people and all people.

So then do you think that there is no way to know anything about God’s Attributes

We know about the Attributes that God described in the Qur'an.

or do you just think that none of them can be manifested in a Messenger of God?

Correct.

I think that all humans can reflect certain other Attributes of God such as Good, Loving, Gracious, Merciful, Just, Righteous, Forgiving, and Patient, and that the Messengers of God simply reflect these to a higher degree than any other human being.

God's Attribute of Mercy, to take but one example, is not the same as the human attribute of mercy. Humans can be merciful, but they can never reflect God's Attribute of Mercy.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Do you think that people of the older religions, and even the Baha’is, will voluntarily choose to become Muslims

Some will and some won't. A time will come in the future when all will choose to become Muslims.

Didn’t Muhammad say in the Qur’an that religion should always be a choice?

Muhammad (pbuh) said nothing in the Qur'an. God indeed said that there should be no compulsion in religion.

Christians constitute 33% of the world population and most Christians consider Islam a false religion. How do you think you will ever get them on board?

A time will come when those remaining on Earth will choose to convert to Islam.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Baha’is have revealed and obligatory prayers and a month of fasting but those are not binding upon anyone except Baha’is.

Why do you that the Muslim forms of prayer and fasting should be universal?

Because I believe that all people should become Muslim, and when they become Muslim, they should strive to practice the Muslim forms of prayer and fasting.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

If Covenant breakers understood Baha’u’llah’s message and if they cared about what Baha’u’llah taught, they would not break the Covenant of Baha’u’llah. The Covenant is very clearly delineated by the Will of Baha’u’llah. Breaking that Covenant shows that CBs do not care about maintaining the unity of the religion, they just want to define it differently and have their own religion. If that is not arrogant and selfish I do not know what is.

However, I agree with you that we cannot KNOW their motivation. They may very well believe that they are doing the will of God.

You are right, it is never good to label anyone as selfish and arrogant. That goes against what Baha’u’llah taught and the reason I said that is because CG has been pushing me for a number of days.

We have to think in terms of how important the Covenant of Baha'u'llah is and what would have happened by now and into the future if we had no such Covenant. The religion would split into thousands of sects, just like Christianity and other older religions. That is why we cannot cut Covenant breakers any slack.

And why would it be such a fundamental problem to accept a diversity of belief and practice within the Baha'i Faith?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I agree that Yeshua (pbuh) will not return in the same body he came in the first time, but I believe that his spirit will nevertheless return, not just his spiritual attributes.

That is what I see is offered. It is the same Spirit (Holy Spirit) that all Messengers are born of. Allah can not be known in Essence, so the 'Self of God' we see is the Messengers, they are all we can know of God and I see Baha'u'llah has also said that the Mesengers are the primal point of creation.

I see that is the lesson we are to learn from the Virgin Birth. The Messengers though born from the womb are born of the Holy Spirit. "The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: Selected Letters", p. 109)

We are born of the Human Spirit and need the Spirit of Faith to find our connection with the Holy Spirit. That is what I see also in the lesson of what it is to be born again.

I see this is what all people of all faiths need to do in this age to be born again. This is again 'Judgement Day'. All past Faith was abrogated by the Message of the Bab and then Baha'u'llah and made new, the promised new heaven and new earth. 'Judgement day' is the dispensation of a Messenger.

Regards Tony

 

[The_Fisher_King]

If Muslim forms of prayer where part of the universal teachings then the Qiblah would never have changed

All Islamic teachings - both universal and time-specific - were revealed progressively over a period of time (over the later part of the lifetime of Muhammad (pbuh)). The teachings regarding prayer are no different; it is the final form of the prayer as taught by Muhammad (pbuh) that is the universal form.

the means of prayer and fasting taught by Jews would be the same as that taught by Muhammadans, but they’re not.

The forms of prayer and fasting taught by the Jews today are corruptions of the original forms of prayer and fasting taught by their Messengers.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

He will establish justice and fight with Yeshua (pbuh) against the Antichrist.

That happened with Baha'u'llah. This is what instigated the law of Covernant breaking. It was Baha'u'llah's half brother.

"The Antichrist is considered to subvert the religion of God from the inner reality of man as 'Abdu'l-Baha narrates: "Christ was a divine Center of unity and love. Whenever discord prevails instead of unity, wherever hatred and antagonism take the place of love and spiritual fellowship, Antichrist reigns instead of Christ."

Antichrist - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

 

[The_Fisher_King]

That is what I see is offered. It is the same Spirit (Holy Spirit) that all Messengers are born of. Allah can not be known in Essence, so the 'Self of God' we see is the Messengers, they are all we can know of God and I see Baha'u'llah has also said that the Mesengers are the primal point of creation.

I see that is the lesson we are to learn from the Virgin Birth. The Messengers though born from the womb are born of the Holy Spirit. "The Holy Spirit Itself hath been generated through the agency of a single letter revealed by this Most Great Spirit, if ye be of them that comprehend. ("The World Order of Bahá'u'lláh: Selected Letters", p. 109)

We are born of the Human Spirit and need the Spirit of Faith to find our connection with the Holy Spirit. That is what I see also in the lesson of what it is to be born again.

I see this is what all people of all faiths need to do in this age to be born again. This is again 'Judgement Day'. All past Faith was abrogated by the Message of the Bab and then Baha'u'llah and made new, the promised new heaven and new earth. 'Judgement day' is the dispensation of a Messenger.

Regards Tony

And you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

That happened with Baha'u'llah. This is what instigated the law of Covernant breaking. It was Baha'u'llah's half brother.

"The Antichrist is considered to subvert the religion of God from the inner reality of man as 'Abdu'l-Baha narrates: "Christ was a divine Center of unity and love. Whenever discord prevails instead of unity, wherever hatred and antagonism take the place of love and spiritual fellowship, Antichrist reigns instead of Christ."

Antichrist - Wikipedia

Regards Tony

But I don't believe Baha'u'llah is Yeshua (pbuh). And I believe in an actual Antichrist who will come in the form of an individual human being.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

All Islamic teachings - both universal and time-specific - were revealed progressively over a period of time (over the later part of the lifetime of Muhammad (pbuh)). The teachings regarding prayer are no different; it is the final form of the prayer as taught by Muhammad (pbuh) that is the universal form.

The Qiblah is now in Israel just outside of Akka. That is now the direction Baha'i turn for obligatory prayer.

It is a Biblical promise that Gods Faith would return to the Holy Land, with a New Jerusalem (Abode of peace) and It has.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And you are entitled to your opinion.

As you are to yours.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But I don't believe Baha'u'llah is Yeshua (pbuh). And I believe in an actual Antichrist who will come in the form of an individual human being.

As stated, that did happen. All details are available.

Regards Tony

 

[The_Fisher_King]

As stated, that did happen. All details are available.

Regards Tony

Baha'u'llah wasn't Yeshua (pbuh). He was Baha'u'llah.