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Winding the Wicking of Discovery

Shadow Link

Shadow Link

Active Member
What, in your opinion, has become the biggest part of today's ignorance of what the role of government should be for the American citizens?

A recent discussion on the topic of Democratic Socialism has led me to investigate or try to pinpoint the argument for this form of socialistic ideology and it's biggest problem. If I try and put myself in the opponents shoes for a minute, I reluctantly find "empathy" as the most compelling argument for Socialism.

Whatever happened to introspection? Can it be taught? Can it only be experienced from suffering? Is the missing link to restoring balance with individually liberty found only through the proponents of socialism's lack of belief that not all suffering is evil?

What are your thoughts?
 
Jose Fly

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Shadow Link said:
What, in your opinion, has become the biggest part of today's ignorance of what the role of government should be for the American citizens?

A recent discussion on the topic of Democratic Socialism has led me to investigate or try to pinpoint the argument for this form of socialistic ideology and it's biggest problem. If I try and put myself in the opponents shoes for a minute, I reluctantly find "empathy" as the most compelling argument for Socialism.

Whatever happened to introspection? Can it be taught? Can it only be experienced from suffering? Is the missing link to restoring balance with individually liberty found only through the proponents of socialism's lack of belief that not all suffering is evil?

What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
I think the biggest problem is that conservatives characterize anything that's taxpayer funded as "socialism" and try to equate it with the sort of national socialism of Venezuela.

A public health care system? YOU'RE TRYING TO TURN US INTO VENEZUELA!!!

Public funding for green energy? YOU'RE TRYING TO TURN US INTO VENEZUELA!!!

Increasing funding for universities? YOU'RE TRYING TO TURN US INTO VENEZUELA!!!

Funny though how that sort of thinking never applies to public money being used to bail out banks, funding oil and gas exploration and development, supporting farmers, etc.
 
Shadow Link

Shadow Link

Active Member
Jose Fly said:
I think the biggest problem is that conservatives characterize anything that's taxpayer funded as "socialism" and try to equate it with the sort of national socialism of Venezuela.

A public health care system? YOU'RE TRYING TO TURN US INTO VENEZUELA!!!

Public funding for green energy? YOU'RE TRYING TO TURN US INTO VENEZUELA!!!

Increasing funding for universities? YOU'RE TRYING TO TURN US INTO VENEZUELA!!!

Funny though how that sort of thinking never applies to public money being used to bail out banks, funding oil and gas exploration and development, supporting farmers, etc.
Click to expand...
How is it not a form of Socialism?
 
Jose Fly

Jose Fly

Fisker of men
Shadow Link said:
How is it not a form of Socialism?
Click to expand...
That's precisely the nuance that's lacking. "A form of socialism" is not the same as the full-on national socialism that was imposed in Venezuela.

There is no country that practices 100% pure capitalism. The closest the US came was in the late 1800's-early 1900's and the country didn't like the outcome of extreme boom-bust cycles, corporate monopolies, child labor, old people dying in the streets, debtor prisons, ridiculously unsafe working conditions, etc. So we started implementing regulations and setting up publicly funded programs to lessen those outcomes.

IMO, one of the reasons the right yells "SOCIALISM" so often is because they can't really argue against a program on its merits, so they just slap a buzzword label on it (socialism) and figure that's enough to convince their base that it's unacceptable. What's truly sad is how often it works.
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Shadow Link said:
What, in your opinion, has become the biggest part of today's ignorance of what the role of government should be for the American citizens?
Click to expand...

Short term thinking is the cause for many of these issues.

Let's say that businesses (and politicians), were rewarded for long term societal success. In such a system, good healthcare for all (for example), would be a no-brainer, because it's necessary for the long-term flourishing of the society. It's only short-term thinking that allows us to conclude that it's okay to have a financially insecure, unhealthy population.

For reasons that escape me, oligarchs tend NOT to be long term thinkers. Maybe they don't have kids?
 
Shadow Link

Shadow Link

Active Member
Jose Fly said:
That's precisely the nuance that's lacking. "A form of socialism" is not the same as the full-on national socialism that was imposed in Venezuela.

There is no country that practices 100% pure capitalism. The closest the US came was in the late 1800's-early 1900's and the country didn't like the outcome of extreme boom-bust cycles, corporate monopolies, child labor, old people dying in the streets, debtor prisons, ridiculously unsafe working conditions, etc. So we started implementing regulations and setting up publicly funded programs to lessen those outcomes.

IMO, one of the reasons the right yells "SOCIALISM" so often is because they can't really argue against a program on its merits, so they just slap a buzzword label on it (socialism) and figure that's enough to convince their base that it's unacceptable. What's truly sad is how often it works.
Click to expand...
But to put this idea of a governmental healthcare system in perspective, where will the support come from for it?
 
Shadow Link

Shadow Link

Active Member
icehorse said:
Short term thinking is the cause for many of these issues.

Let's say that businesses (and politicians), were rewarded for long term societal success. In such a system, good healthcare for all (for example), would be a no-brainer, because it's necessary for the long-term flourishing of the society. It's only short-term thinking that allows us to conclude that it's okay to have a financially insecure, unhealthy population.

For reasons that escape me, oligarchs tend NOT to be long term thinkers. Maybe they don't have kids?
Click to expand...
So your thinking is that there will be worse ramifications stemming from these programs for the future generations?
 
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Unfortunately we have the same OP in two different threads. I'm not going to cut/paste my comments in the other thread here.
 
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