A complex case against intelligent design

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I was with you until you got to the "holey" part. I suddenly realized I'm debating with a child. I'll pass.

"Holey" because they all have gaping, large holes in their claims.

A clever pun against a very un-clever Bronze Age book of myths and other ugliness.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The book doesn't say that.

Actually? It most certainly does say that. No matter how you care to spin things, Adam was given possession of all the Earth, according to the myth.

 

[rrobs]

Wrong - on multiple levels.

1. The beliefs of ignorant humans is not the same as science.
2. Science is not in the business of "Proving".

Here you are quoting Quantum Mechanics and you do even have a basic concept of what science is. How silly.

If not ignorant humans, who makes science?

Technically you are right about science not in the business of proving. I was being profane for the sake of simplicity. People at one time thought the earth was flat. Now they think it is round. People at one time thought the atom was the smallest particle. Now they think it is quarks and leptons. If you didn't get it before, I trust you get my point now.

Your suggestion I do not have a basic concept of science actually suggests you are actually lack a basic knowledge of the scientific method. Not having much evidence, I can't say that for sure. You may be a physics professor at Harvard for all I know. However, from your statement regarding the level of my knowledge I suspect you are quick to jump to conclusions. Hardly scientific.

 

[rrobs]

Actually? It most certainly does say that. No matter how you care to spin things, Adam was given possession of all the Earth, according to the myth.

I guess I misunderstood your previous reply. Yes, Adam was given dominion. Unless I further misunderstood your previous post, why would you then blame God for all injustices in the world? Wouldn't Adam be to blame?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If not ignorant humans, who makes science?

Technically you are right about science not in the business of proving. I was being profane for the sake of simplicity. People at one time thought the earth was flat..

Only those who used the silly bible to "explain" things-- the bible clearly describes a flat disc of an earth. Even the NT agrees: Jesus was taken to a "high place" by Satan, and shown the whole world-- impossible on a sphere. Quite possible on a flat disc.

Now they think it is round..

No-- we have photographic evidence that it's round, which directly contradicts what the bible states.

People at one time thought the atom was the smallest particle..

That would be the Greeks-- which were in a minority. Most folk thought that stuff was the same "all the way down", no matter how fine you slice it. They were wrong about that, too.

Now they think it is quarks and leptons..

The model describes this. Experimental testing seems to confirm this. It's more akin to accepting the model as good so far.

If you didn't get it before, I trust you get my point now..

We got it. You were wrong before, and you continue to be wrong now.

Your suggestion I do not have a basic concept of science actually suggests you are actually lack a basic knowledge of the scientific method. Not having much evidence, I can't say that for sure. You may be a physics professor at Harvard for all I know. However, from your statement regarding the level of my knowledge I suspect you are quick to jump to conclusions. Hardly scientific.

Not jumping to conclusions. Going by your many mistakes in describing Science so far.

It's a fair assessment. You also appear to lack a sense of humor...

 

[rrobs]

"Holey" because they all have gaping, large holes in their claims.

A clever pun against a very un-clever Bronze Age book of myths and other ugliness.

Epicurius has a corner on truth? My mother always told me never to point a finger at others because I'd be pointing three back at myself. Smart woman, she was.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I guess I misunderstood your previous reply. Yes, Adam was given dominion. Unless I further misunderstood your previous post, why would you then blame God for all injustices in the world? Wouldn't Adam be to blame?

Nope. I don't blame god for anything. I also don't blame Adam.

Because neither of these are or were real things. Just as I don't blame Unicorns for why Cotton Candy is so sweet.

But.

IF god exists as described by the bible? THEN such a god would be Evil with an E.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Epicurius has a corner on truth? My mother always told me never to point a finger at others because I'd be pointing three back at myself. Smart woman, she was.

Apparently, she also failed to teach you to have a sense of humor...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Epicurius has a corner on truth?

Projection on your part. Epicurius was merely a man.

He did, however, ask some very pointed questions -- questions which no Monotheist has ever managed to answer in a meaningful or logical way.

Nice attempt to dodge, by the way: Shoot The Messenger with a Straw Man.

I suppose you could use a Logical Fallacy Air Cannon? So as to avoid destroying the Straw Man during discharge.

 

[rrobs]

Going by your many mistakes in describing Science so far.

Could you be more specific? While you list them, perhaps you could give the corrections. Now we are talking about science, so leave the scriptures out of it if you would.

BTW, I'm actually well known for my humor. You are probably overly upset by my writings to see it.

 

[rrobs]

Apparently, she also failed to teach you to have a sense of humor...

Well, I find your replies rather humerus. Hard to take serious in any case.

We should stop trading thinly veiled insults at each other. Agree?

 

[rrobs]

Projection on your part. Epicurius was merely a man.

He did, however, ask some very pointed questions -- questions which no Monotheist has ever managed to answer in a meaningful or logical way.

Nice attempt to dodge, by the way: Shoot The Messenger with a Straw Man.

I suppose you could use a Logical Fallacy Air Cannon? So as to avoid destroying the Straw Man during discharge.

I just noticed your byline, so I figured you were a fan of Epicurus. Easy mistake to make.

 

[rrobs]

Apparently, she also failed to teach you to have a sense of humor...

No. We were a rather jocular family.

 

[Bear Wild]

I have no desire whatsoever to argue whether or not God changes. It is not my aim to convince you that you are somehow wrong and I'm right. I just quoted the book. The verse clearly said God does not change. If, as you suggest, that contradicts other parts of the scriptures then I'd suggest you forget the whole thing. In your mind the Bible is full of myths. Why waste your time on it? I certainly wouldn't.

I've enjoyed our chat, but I think we may have wrung it out by now. I don't want to unilaterally say, "I'm done" but if you want to end at this point I'll be happy to do just that. We can always meet again down the road on some other interesting subject for discussion.

So the word written by a man is the word of god? Interesting. As for myths they are important and are designed to teach. There are many good myths in the bible as well as in other cultures so I do not see it as a waste of my time. I do not understand why someone would want to believe the myths literally.

 

[Bear Wild]

Gen 1:28,

And God blessed them (Adam and Eve), and God said unto them (Adam and Eve), Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.​

Dinosaurs: Google "gap theory bible"
Flood:

Gen 6:5,

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil (dysfunctional) continually.
​

Man became completely dysfunctional, always. Nothing whatsoever functioned as originally designed. The whole thing was doomed. What would you have done?

Burning bush: I guess a woman just wasn't there at the time. I wouldn't read too much into it.

God did not come down as Jesus. Jesus was not God. Jesus was not around until he was born some 4,000 years later. Tradition and the scriptures are at definite odds on that point.


I asked you once before what your source for truth. You didn't answer, but I assume you take nature as your point of reference. If so, I suppose what you say is true.


As I said above, Jesus wasn't around to warn Adam and Eve. God did though. I gave the reason God didn't come down and "make things straight." Having given dominion to man, it was out of His hands. Free will is involved. You said you understand the logos, but your reply shows you really don't know much about it. Man got us into the mess. A man had to get out of the mess. The logos is God's plan to do just that without taking over anybody's free will. As I said, Jesus was not a god or a god-man. He was a man, a unique man to be sure, but a man nonetheless. He was just like us. The only difference was that, unlike the first man, Jesus obeyed to the letter. That is the quickest and dirtiest version of the logos I can give you. Details would take some time, so I'll just leave it at that.

There is certainly no shortage of folks who believe the new earth is a myth. However, the scriptures don't agree with that assessment. What do you think happens to you after you die?

Gap theory bible? Seriously? So if the creation story does not explain the natural world (yes that is my source of truth) then create additional creation myths to cover up the gap. So to avoid misinterpretation do you really believe in gap theory bible?
So I understand you correctly Jesus was a man in your mind was just like us. No virgin birth? No walking on water or creating wine from water (excluding grapes from this argument)? Any idea why god does not work with women as much has god works with men? Would like your insight on these issues.

 

[rrobs]

Gap theory bible? Seriously? So if the creation story does not explain the natural world (yes that is my source of truth) then create additional creation myths to cover up the gap. So to avoid misinterpretation do you really believe in gap theory bible?
So I understand you correctly Jesus was a man in your mind was just like us. No virgin birth? No walking on water or creating wine from water (excluding grapes from this argument)? Any idea why god does not work with women as much has god works with men? Would like your insight on these issues.

So far you've shot down everything, and I do mean everything, I've said. So why the sudden interest in my insights?

 

[Bear Wild]

So far you've shot down everything, and I do mean everything, I've said. So why the sudden interest in my insights?

Just trying to understand the logic? You have an opinion about science and its limitations so wondering how you can question the conclusions of science yet apparently accept an idea not specifically state in the bible. You can believe anything you want of course but commenting on quantum mechanics and its limitations then proposing another explanation for dinosaurs and fossil evidence make me curious about the logic in the alternative explanation. You do not, of course, have to answer if you do not want to.

 

[Polymath257]

They key word I got from your reply is "guessing."

I see. So you ignore the substance and focus on the trivial. I gave detailed reasons why I disagree with what you quoted. I have also talked to a fairly large number of physicists about quantum mechanics, and I haven't found the viewpoint of the article to be present, let alone common, among them.

 

[rrobs]

Just trying to understand the logic? You have an opinion about science and its limitations so wondering how you can question the conclusions of science yet apparently accept an idea not specifically state in the bible. You can believe anything you want of course but commenting on quantum mechanics and its limitations then proposing another explanation for dinosaurs and fossil evidence make me curious about the logic in the alternative explanation.

Curious, smuruios! You just want to criticize. Do it at somebody else's expense.

You do not, of course, have to answer if you do not want to.

Finally, a lucky break. I don't have to answer. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[Bear Wild]

smuruios

Sorry was not going to bother you but my ignorance is showing. What is smuruious?