Women's head covering in Abrahamic belief systems.

[Ellen Brown]

I see it as when a person truly repents and becomes baptized to Jesus, he becomes one spirit with the Lord(1 Corinthians 17), therefore that person is saved and has the Spirit within. But the bible does talk about going further and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit which comes upon a person and gives them power to witness; and it does seem that there always were utterances(prophecy or tongues) accompanied when it falls upon a person. As Jesus himself said in John 7:38-39, “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.). So there seems to be a flow coming from the persons innermost being as evidence that the person has received the Holy Ghost. There are other examples like in acts 19 when Paul asks the disciples in Ephesus if you have received the Holy Spirit when you believed and they said no, telling us you can be a disciple and not receive the Holy Spirit, but going on when they did receive, they spoke in tongues and prophesied. And in Luke 11:13 it says, “...how much more will the heavely father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him” in the context of a Father giving gifts to His child, so saying that His children(born-again followers of Jesus) should ask Him for the gift of the Holy Spirit, and He will give it to them.

Without being confrontational, none of us can regulate and dictate the path of another. I do not agree that tongues is evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. This argument has hurt far too many people.

 

[A.C. Simon]

Without being confrontational, none of us can regulate and dictate the path of another. I do not agree that tongues is evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. This argument has hurt far too many people.

I don’t think tongues is the evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit, but the evidence of the outflowing of the Holy Spirit. Every believer has the Spirit within, but not all have the Spirit upon them. That’s just what I see when looking at scripture, and im not saying everyone has to agree with me; these views could change as I go futher in my walk with Christ, but from what I see in scripture I highly doubt that would happen. As for hurting people, I’m not saying their not saved or anything like that, but that the gift of the Holy Spirit gives us power(from on high) to be a witness. Do you know anyone that is operating in healing or prophecy or other gifts without having had an experience similar to Pentecost, where they started speaking in tongues or started prophesying?

 

[Ellen Brown]

I see it as when a person truly repents and becomes baptized to Jesus, he becomes one spirit with the Lord(1 Corinthians 17), therefore that person is saved and has the Spirit within. But the bible does talk about going further and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit which comes upon a person and gives them power to witness; and it does seem that there always were utterances(prophecy or tongues) accompanied when it falls upon a person. As Jesus himself said in John 7:38-39, “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.). So there seems to be a flow coming from the persons innermost being as evidence that the person has received the Holy Ghost. There are other examples like in acts 19 when Paul asks the disciples in Ephesus if you have received the Holy Spirit when you believed and they said no, telling us you can be a disciple and not receive the Holy Spirit, but going on when they did receive, they spoke in tongues and prophesied. And in Luke 11:13 it says, “...how much more will the heavely father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him” in the context of a Father giving gifts to His child, so saying that His children(born-again followers of Jesus) should ask Him for the gift of the Holy Spirit, and He will give it to them.

I can be quite snotty at times. It was a survival trait that I developed being raised with lots of brothers. You may know that I've had lots of exposure to the Arabic language, but do not speak it well, so I have thought about speaking something in Arabic during one of these worship sessions. LOL. And wait to see if there is an interpretation? Isn't there a requirement that spoken tongues must be interpreted? On one hand, it would be really funny if my saying "I have to go get groceries, will you drive me because I can not?" was interpreted as "You will become a healer and a great Doctor"?

No one can judge my belief and service to God, or his children, but God. And, if done according to the words of Jesus Christ, lots of our service and healing will be done in secret. "Things done in secret will be rewarded openly".

 

[A.C. Simon]

I can be quite snotty at times. It was a survival trait that I developed being raised with lots of brothers. You may know that I've had lots of exposure to the Arabic language, but do not speak it well, so I have thought about speaking something in Arabic during one of these worship sessions. LOL. And wait to see if there is an interpretation? Isn't there a requirement that spoken tongues must be interpreted? On one hand, it would be really funny if my saying "I have to go get groceries, will you drive me because I can not?" was interpreted as "You will become a healer and a great Doctor"?

No one can judge my belief and service to God, or his children, but God. And, if done according to the words of Jesus Christ, lots of our service and healing will be done in secret. "Things done in secret will be rewarded openly".

Ya I myself can be pretty aggressive without knowing it. But anyhow, when you speak in tongues your spirit prays to God and is building you up, if you think about it that’s pretty awesome. The Holy Spirit is interceding for you and making you stronger in God according to the will of the Father; and since when you speak in tongues you only edify yourself, Paul says to speak it between you and God alone, because it doesn’t edify anyone else: unless there is someone who can interpret, and there’s where the ministry of tongues and interpretations comes in, acting as prophecy.

As for the Arabic thing, I hope you wouldn’t really do that for your benefit. I don’t know, but to me it seems like that’s borderline blaspheming the Holy Spirit, I don’t want to be condemning or anything like that, but that’s just my advice. Speaking in tongues comes from the Spirit, not the mind, therefore it’s not tongues.

And as for the last paragraph, I’m not sure entirely where it comes from, but I’ll just say, wasn’t judging you; just trying to help. We’ll all stand before Him one day to give an account of the things done in the body, and even the intentions of our hearts. And what I’m looking for is “You did good son,come on in”.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I see it as when a person truly repents and becomes baptized to Jesus, he becomes one spirit with the Lord(1 Corinthians 17), therefore that person is saved and has the Spirit within. But the bible does talk about going further and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit which comes upon a person and gives them power to witness; and it does seem that there always were utterances(prophecy or tongues) accompanied when it falls upon a person. As Jesus himself said in John 7:38-39, “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.). So there seems to be a flow coming from the persons innermost being as evidence that the person has received the Holy Ghost. There are other examples like in acts 19 when Paul asks the disciples in Ephesus if you have received the Holy Spirit when you believed and they said no, telling us you can be a disciple and not receive the Holy Spirit, but going on when they did receive, they spoke in tongues and prophesied. And in Luke 11:13 it says, “...how much more will the heavely father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him” in the context of a Father giving gifts to His child, so saying that His children(born-again followers of Jesus) should ask Him for the gift of the Holy Spirit, and He will give it to them.

I've been thrown out of more Christian Churches than I can count. We get very used to our doctrines, especially the incorrect ones that make us comfortable. Jesus came to challenge, "I came not to bring peace but a sword". Every single day I ask God to guide my steps and that my path might not be an offense to him. If your path is righteous, you will surely offend some.

It is "Pride" month and many of the LGBT folk I know want me to blow that horn; thinking that I am part of their PAC. I'm not and was mistakenly thrown into that group through an act of evil. 15 years later I can only live out my life in a way that seeks to please God. I was in a church one time that the congregation read scripture and the singing was Capella. It was not for me, but I have no criticism of them. In another church, it was like a wild party to me where people were slain in the spirit and put on little blankets on the floor. Again, I have no criticism of them. Another church is like going to a rock concert, and another admits anyone who believes in God in, to include Muslims, and Agnostics. It is a natural instinct to try to get others to agree with us to validate our own position.

Remember the most righteous and pleasing to God was murdered on a cross.

 

[A.C. Simon]

I've been thrown out of more Christian Churches than I can count. We get very used to our doctrines, especially the incorrect ones that make us comfortable. Jesus came to challenge, "I came not to bring peace but a sword". Every single day I ask God to guide my steps and that my path might not be an offense to him. If your path is righteous, you will surely offend some.

It is "Pride" month and many of the LGBT folk I know want me to blow that horn; thinking that I am part of their PAC. I'm not and was mistakenly thrown into that group through an act of evil. 15 years later I can only live out my life in a way that seeks to please God. I was in a church one time that the congregation read scripture and the singing was Capella. It was not for me, but I have no criticism of them. In another church, it was like a wild party to me where people were slain in the spirit and put on little blankets on the floor. Again, I have no criticism of them. Another church is like going to a rock concert, and another admits anyone who believes in God in, to include Muslims, and Agnostics. It is a natural instinct to try to get others to agree with us to validate our own position.

Remember the most righteous and pleasing to God was murdered on a cross.

Ya I agree with you that we’ve gotten comfortable with our “church traditions” which Jesus warns us about. Even the idea of a building be a church, instead of the people of God being that church. We’ve made so many denominations and had so many church splits over doctrine that doesn’t matter that much. The only paradigm Jesus taught was the kingdom of God, and being in covenant with Him and one another; but man tends to make it a religious thing, even when the bible says it’s better to obey than sacrifice. He wants your heart more than your money and attendance.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Ya I agree with you that we’ve gotten comfortable with our “church traditions” which Jesus warns us about. Even the idea of a building be a church, instead of the people of God being that church. We’ve made so many denominations and had so many church splits over doctrine that doesn’t matter that much. The only paradigm Jesus taught was the kingdom of God, and being in covenant with Him and one another; but man tends to make it a religious thing, even when the bible says it’s better to obey than sacrifice. He wants your heart more than your money and attendance.

Islam and Judaism are just as denomination ally divided. These days, I don't feel the need to understand everything perfectly. In sentiment I am likely a Quran only Muslim that has lots of questions about Jesus Christ. I am not strong enough to "fix" anyone else's religion. I see lots of wisdom in the Bible and in the Quran. Not many realize that Muhammad PBUH saw Jews and Christians as "The People of the Book", and issued instructions not to attack them if they were not attacking him, and to protect them if needed. It was after his death that Islam took such a dive into depravity.

 

[outlawState]

..... but there’s no rule or commandment that says a woman must wear a head covering in the bible.

So you deny 1 Cor 11? Why is that?

 

[Ellen Brown]

So you deny 1 Cor 11? Why is that?

Um so, Happy Birthday!

 

[Ellen Brown]

After doing some more reading, I think it is likely that women's head and face covering began before Islam, before Judaism, and perhaps before Zoroastrianism. As I have seen with the Tuareg, in harsh conditions, both men and women cover everything, and look through a small slit in a reed to keep the sand out of their faces. Somewhere along the line, some control freak decided it was a mandate from God.

Being around Middle Eastern men a bit, they seem to think a woman's sex, her hips, and her breasts are forbidden. Later they forced the head covering and then finally decided a woman's full and puffy lips were somehow sexual. It is odd to me that when a man feels something natural, and he doesn't like it then he blames the woman for it. It's the same thing as blaming Eve for all of Biblical history fore the fall of man through the Apple incident.

Now that I am sufficiently indignant, I'm going to bed.

 

[outlawState]

After doing some more reading, I think it is likely that women's head and face covering began before Islam,before Judaism, and perhaps before Zoroastrianism. As I have seen with the Tuareg, in harsh conditions, both men and women cover everything, and look through a small slit in a reed to keep the sand out of their faces. Somewhere along the line, some control freak decided it was a mandate from God.

Being around Middle Eastern men a bit, they seem to think a woman's sex, her hips, and her breasts are forbidden. Later they forced the head covering and then finally decided a woman's full and puffy lips were somehow sexual. It is odd to me that when a man feels something natural, and he doesn't like it then he blames the woman for it. It's the same thing as blaming Eve for all of Biblical history fore the fall of man through the Apple incident.

Now that I am sufficiently indignant, I'm going to bed.

The way I see it, is that Islam wrongly allows divorce by women. So in order to prevent women talking to other men, they have to be virtually imprisoned. So the burqa which is fairly unique to Islam is a consequence of its false religion and designed to prevent them being approached by men. In societies where divorce by women was forbidden, then the burqa is unnecessary as in Jewish / older Christian society, everyone would know that a women had no right of divorce.

So yes, women suffer the consequences of their unchaste natures a lot more in Islam, where Islam does not understand the order of God as well as Christianity.

Of course there is no plausible Christian society today, except as is practiced amongst a few smaller denominations. In the mainstream there is only cultural Christianity but it is largely meaningless.

 

[Ellen Brown]

The way I see it, is that Islam wrongly allows divorce by women. So in order to prevent women talking to other men, they have to be virtually imprisoned. So the burqa which is fairly unique to Islam is a consequence of its false religion and designed to prevent them being approached by men. In societies where divorce by women was forbidden, then the burqa is unnecessary as in Jewish / older Christian society, everyone would know that a women had no right of divorce.

So yes, women suffer the consequences of their unchaste natures a lot more in Islam, where Islam does not understand the order of God as well as Christianity.

Of course there is no plausible Christian society today, except as is practiced amongst a few smaller denominations. In the mainstream there is only cultural Christianity but it is largely meaningless.

Theoretically, there really is not much theological difference between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam save for correctly identifying the identity of Jesus the Christ as Son or Prophet. And for me at least, that issue simply does not matter. Yet, many of us have used that insignificant, pettiness as an excuse to murder those who do not agree with us. The important issue is to love the Creator and to love each other. That admonishment is clear in all three faiths. I've been around radical members of all three belief systems, and the shaitan seems to get into them and make the hatred and murder of others seem correct. Oh God, what shall you do with us in our sorry and vile state?

 

[outlawState]

Theoretically, there really is not much theological difference between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam save for correctly identifying the identity of Jesus the Christ as Son or Prophet.

I think it's a big issue, where Jesus as a prophet is really the excuse of Islam to reject the New Testament entirely.

Let's be clear, Jesus is a mythical figure in Islam of whom nothing is known or can be known for every record of him has been falsified (according to Islam). Yet Islam would be condemned by the New Testament Jesus as mere paganism & nonsense.

And for me at least, that issue simply does not matter. Yet, many of us have used that insignificant, pettiness as an excuse to murder those who do not agree with us. The important issue is to love the Creator and to love each other. That admonishment is clear in all three faiths. I've been around radical members of all three belief systems, and the shaitan seems to get into them and make the hatred and murder of others seem correct. Oh God, what shall you do with us in our sorry and vile state?

You don't really understand much. Islam is a political creed, whose end is political supremacy in every country in which it establishes itself. Whatever the initial pseudo-religious pretensions of Mahomet, which were elementary in the extreme and devoted only to getting rid of crude idol worship, which almost every surrounding nation had abandoned for centuries, he turned ultimately to politics to establish himself. For that reason conflict is inevitable where it comes to Islam. Islam is the religion of Apollo, Apollyon, the destroyer. It is the religion of antichrist. It is no religion in the eyes of Christianity, which has traditionally regarded it as paganism, which it is, in truth.

Rev 9:11
And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I think it's a big issue, where Jesus as a prophet is really the excuse of Islam to reject the New Testament entirely.

Let's be clear, Jesus is a mythical figure in Islam of whom nothing is known or can be known for every record of him has been falsified (according to Islam). Yet Islam would be condemned by the New Testament Jesus as mere paganism & nonsense.



You don't really understand much. Islam is a political creed, whose end is political supremacy in every country in which it establishes itself. Whatever the initial pseudo-religious pretensions of Mahomet, which were elementary in the extreme and devoted only to getting rid of crude idol worship, which almost every surrounding nation had abandoned for centuries, he turned ultimately to politics to establish himself. For that reason conflict is inevitable where it comes to Islam. Islam is the religion of Apollo, Apollyon, the destroyer. It is the religion of antichrist. It is no religion in the eyes of Christianity, which has traditionally regarded it as paganism, which it is, in truth.

Rev 9:11
And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

The religious establishment violates their believers in unspeakable ways. Since you can not answer for my failings, I'll choose my own path before the Creator.

 

[Rival]

Theoretically, there really is not much theological difference between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam save for correctly identifying the identity of Jesus the Christ as Son or Prophet.

There are many differences. It would require a separate thread.

 

[Ellen Brown]

There are many differences. It would require a separate thread.

Yeah, it's that camel, needle thing. Matt 19:24 Perhaps? Most have focused on man's rules in religion rather than what the Creator actually desires from us. The Jews have like about 600 or so rules. The Muslims have whole books of Hadeeths and Fatwas added to the Quran, The Christians have lots of them also. Does the Creator care if people dip their fingers in water before entering the church? Does meticulous Wudu (Washing) actually matter to Allah SWT? Is the little black hat that Jewish men wear really important? I'm starting to wonder if all these rules are really barriers placed between us and the Creator by satan to impede our relationship with the Creator?

 

[outlawState]

The religious establishment violates their believers in unspeakable ways. Since you can not answer for my failings, I'll choose my own path before the Creator.

False dichotomy. The religious establishment does not own believers nor even speak for them. I agree that everyone must chose their own path, but it is my duty to point out to you that Islam originated in ba'al worship (al ilah, Hu'ba'al being derived from Canaanite pantheism), without that very long period that the Jews went through of discovering the holiness of God by faith.

No amount of "monotheizing" of Allah/Hubal is going to make Allah/Hubal conform to the standards of YHWH. All one can say of the Koran is - no way to heaven.

If you want to protest the religious establishment, become a protestant. Christians have been doing it for a long time. Islam is not protest, but apostasy from Christianity. I can say this here, because this is the "Christianity DIR."

 

[Rival]

Yeah, it's that camel, needle thing. Matt 19:24 Perhaps? Most have focused on man's rules in religion rather than what the Creator actually desires from us. The Jews have like about 600 or so rules. The Muslims have whole books of Hadeeths and Fatwas added to the Quran, The Christians have lots of them also. Does the Creator care if people dip their fingers in water before entering the church? Does meticulous Wudu (Washing) actually matter to Allah SWT? Is the little black hat that Jewish men wear really important? I'm starting to wonder if all these rules are really barriers placed between us and the Creator by satan to impede our relationship with the Creator?

Yes, these are differences, but you mentioned theology. There are lots of theological differences with regard to satan, hell, sin, repentance, G-d, and many differences in morality and so on.

 

[Ellen Brown]

False dichotomy. The religious establishment does not own believers nor even speak for them. I agree that everyone must chose their own path, but it is my duty to point out to you that Islam originated in ba'al worship (al ilah, Hu'ba'al being derived from Canaanite pantheism), without that very long period that the Jews went through of discovering the holiness of God by faith.

No amount of "monotheizing" of Allah/Hubal is going to make Allah/Hubal conform to the standards of YHWH. All one can say of the Koran is - no way to heaven.

If you want to protest the religious establishment, become a protestant. Christians have been doing it for a long time. Islam is not protest, but apostasy from Christianity. I can say this here, because this is the "Christianity DIR."

No need for you to be mean spirited about this. I'll happily leave.

 

[Ellen Brown]

I was "Christian" for over 32 years, and then Muslim for about 7 or so. It is simple to see the fantasy in Christianity, and to see the primitive in Islam. Examining Judaism but I won't put up with anyone that is arrogant and superiority oriented. I teach at times, so know there is no need to upbraid or shame others.