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Is God a Mystery that Will Never be Solved?
- Thread starter Sunstone
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HeatherAnn
Active Member
Interesting, thanks for explaining your beliefs. I do want to be respectful - believing each person resonates spiritually uniquely, however, I also feel the need to explain how I see it. First off, I think that each of us can receive direct messages from God - and ideally we do because "the kingdom of God is within you."Thanks for sharing all of thatNo, I do not remember you sharing it before. I was not aware that the Mormon Church is so controlling. Baha’is do not believe that Joseph Smith was a Prophet for the simple reason that we do not believe he ever received a revelation from God, but we do believe he was a seer.
“As for the status of Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Faith, he is not considered by Bahá’ís to be a prophet, minor or otherwise. But of course he was a religious teacher sensitive to the spiritual currents flowing in the early 19th century directly from the appearance of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and the Revelation of Their Messages of hope and Divine Guidance. In this respect you might find chapter ten in the late Hand of the Cause George Townshend’s book, ‘Christ and Bahá’u’lláh,’ interesting.”
(Universal House of Justice, Lights of Guidance, p. 511) http://www.bahaiquotes.com/quotepage.php
I agree we should never look up to anyone but God and Baha’u’llah wrote that we are to worship nobody BUT God. Baha’u’llah claimed to be a Manifestation of God, a Representative of God, a Servant and a Messenger of God, but He never claimed to be God. To keep it simple, Baha’is believe only those who God speaks to through the Holy Spirit are Messengers of God, whom we normally refer to as Manifestations of God, since they manifest God on earth. They reflect God’s attributes and reveal the Will of God for the age of history in which they appear, but they do not claim to reveal the Essence of God, or even to know it; nobody can know God’s Essence (intrinsic nature) since God is above all that can either be recounted or perceived.
Most of what Baha’u’llah wrote about God was regarding His Unknowable Essence. However, we know that God loves us and cares about things such as unity, peace and justice in the world because Baha’u’llah revealed that. Essentially, Baha’is do not believe we can ever know anything about God or gain near access to God except through a Messenger, which is similar to what Jesus said in John 14:6 “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”
When Jesus said He was the Way, Jesus was referring to that time period in history and He meant that He was the Only Way during his Dispensation, which He was. But clearly, Jesus said that another would succeed Him and convey the “many things” that people could not “bear” back then (John 16:12-13).
When Muhammad came He was “the Way” and then when the Bab and Baha’u’llah came they were “the Way” because God sent them to humanity with a new message which was pertinent to the times in which we lived... That is what Baha’is refer to as Progressive Revelation which is the crux of Baha’i theology, that God has always sent Messengers and will continue to send them throughout all eternity.
Sorry to throw out so much information at once... Please let me know if you have any questions.
The reason why I see Joseph Smith as a prophet is because he saw a vision of a better way (in some ways better) and led people to it. But as I mentioned before, I also see Martin Luther King Jr., and Socrates as prophets based on that criteria. And I don't think that they are god-like. I do believe they can make mistakes and lead people in some mistaken ways - but I'd say that generally, they have done something new and began something good. I'm very weary of anyone who decides what they think and believe based on what some "messenger" tells them. I value thinking and our own free-will, as I see that is the main purpose of us in this life - to exercise our rights to choose.
When Jesus wrote, "I AM the way..." I interpret it similar to when he said, "The kingdom of God is within you" and when Moses interpreted God as I AM THAT I AM. You cannot experience God outside of you - in a tree, or a mosque, or church etc. - only within you.
godnotgod
Thou art That
Would you say that the God that you find within your person is the same God found within all persons?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not really know what Jesus meant when He said that "the kingdom of God is within you" or how that is related to receiving direct messages from God. Also, I do not know what you mean by direct messages from God. When I say that I mean God speaking to someone directly and I do not believe God speaks to anyone directly, not even the Prophets/Messengers of God. God speaks to them through the Holy Spirit.
I agree that the purpose of this life is to make free will chooses and thereby we learn and grow spiritually and improve our character.
I do not like using the word prophet because it has so many connotations. That is why I say “Messenger of God” because that makes it clear that they got a message from God and delivered it to us. I believe that they have to be chosen by God and that they have a different nature than an ordinary man. Their bodies were human but their Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was pre-existent. In that preexistence their Souls were given the ability and capacity to receive direct revelations from God.
Also, there are different kind of Prophets, independent Prophets and ones that are followers and promoters of the independent prophets. This short chapter explains that: 43: THE TWO CLASSES OF PROPHETS.
I understand what you mean. I think people relate to God from within, but things outside of us in God’s Creation can help us experience God because they all reflect God and thereby help us connect to God.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is a very good question. It raises the question as to how we can know the God we found within is really God at all. I mean if others find other Gods within that are different that means they cannot all be the same God..... and if there is only One Real God how can we know who is experiencing the Real God and who might be delusional?
godnotgod
Thou art That
It is said that two meditators at the beginning will entertain different views of Reality. But as time goes on, and as each of them slowly drops their personal views, eventually will come to see the same Reality. Why would it be any other way?
Though two snowflakes have very different and unique patterns, both are made of universally formless water.
When self-view is dissolved, universal view comes into play. The consciousness by which you see the world is the same consciousness by which I see it. Only mind creates differences in how the world is seen, ie; 'my view', vs. 'your view'. It is this universal consciousness that some call 'God'.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Self-view can never be fully dissolved.
I am not convinced that any two people will ever experience the same consciousness or experience Reality the same way. Logically speaking, that means that these spiritual experiences cannot be used to determine what God or Reality IS.
godnotgod
Thou art That
You are still speaking from the POV of self-view, which you say cannot be dissolved. But can you tell me where self-view originated from? As I understand it, infants do not develop a sense of self until around 14 months.
The basis for all self-views is universal view, just as the basis for all unique snowflakes is universal water.
As socialized and indoctrinated humans, we have acquired accretions over a lifetime, accretions which, taken as a whole, are thought of as who we are. If we can acquire them, we can shed them. It's just very difficult inner work.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The self originates with the soul which comes into being at the moment of conception.
I see no reason why we would want to shed who we are and become amalgamated with everyone else.
William Milverton
Member
You have written :-
” for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved”
You believe it is not possible to know whether God as a higher power exists
The Washington Times says that 84% of the world’s population believe in a higher power in some form
84 percent of the world population has faith; a third are Christian - Washington Times
Many of these 84% have used their lives as a laboratory and have conducted practical experiments on this question. They have satisfied themselves that there is a higher power. That is not ‘belief’. It is knowledge.
That is quite different from the pharisees of the Christian church who, as a result of a single brief glimpse of the Holy Ghost, dedicate their lives to the written word of the bible.
They have no knowledge worthy of the word. They only have belief.
The Educational Establishment embraces these religious dilettantes
because it allows them to present all religious as ‘believers’ – as people who have chosen to take a spiritual leap in the dark based on no evidence
People are not stupid
84% of the world’s population are not all idiots
Your own common sense should tell you that a substantial percentage of these people know something that you don’t.
And the fact that the educational establishment (who have little experience of real life) tell you otherwise should give you no comfort at all.
” for epistemic reasons, god is a mystery which will never be solved”
You believe it is not possible to know whether God as a higher power exists
The Washington Times says that 84% of the world’s population believe in a higher power in some form
84 percent of the world population has faith; a third are Christian - Washington Times
Many of these 84% have used their lives as a laboratory and have conducted practical experiments on this question. They have satisfied themselves that there is a higher power. That is not ‘belief’. It is knowledge.
That is quite different from the pharisees of the Christian church who, as a result of a single brief glimpse of the Holy Ghost, dedicate their lives to the written word of the bible.
They have no knowledge worthy of the word. They only have belief.
The Educational Establishment embraces these religious dilettantes
because it allows them to present all religious as ‘believers’ – as people who have chosen to take a spiritual leap in the dark based on no evidence
People are not stupid
84% of the world’s population are not all idiots
Your own common sense should tell you that a substantial percentage of these people know something that you don’t.
And the fact that the educational establishment (who have little experience of real life) tell you otherwise should give you no comfort at all.
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godnotgod
Thou art That
That idea has no basis in fact or your personal experience. It is just your belief, which you learned and accepted as true from others, a product of YOUR social indoctrination.
"The onset of self-awareness is strikingly evident when infants of various ages are compared. Very young infants have no sense of self. In fact, a prominent psychoanalyst, Margaret Mahler, theorized that for the first 4 months of life, infants see themselves as part of their mothers. They 'hatch' at about 5 months and spend the next several months developing a sense of themselves as separate from their mothers (Mahler et al., 1975). Whether or not Mahler is correct, there is no doubt that maturation brings self-awareness. The period from 15 to 18 months 'is noteworthy for the emergence of the Me-self, the sense of self as the object of one's knowledge' (Harter, 1998)."
from: The Developing Person Through Childhood; Kathleen Stassen Berger
The Developing Person Through Childhood
We are not shedding who we really are, but who we imagine ourselves to be. This imagined self is the product of years of social indoctrination via our parents, peer groups, governments, educators, etc. It is comprised of a set of values, images, titles, and life experiences which the mind groups together and categorizes them as 'me'. Who we really are is the consciousness prior to our indoctrination that forms our social Identity. We say 'I am so and so from such and such place'. That is the state of Identification in existence in time and space. But our true nature is not in existence, but in Being, not dependent upon time and space, the 'I Am', which we have lost touch with. That is what everyone on these forums is here for: in search of their lost 'I Am', having been bamboozled by the fictional 'self' of Identification.
Realization of oneness with everyone and everything is not to form a featureless blob of psycho-protoplasm. It is to see your true nature that lies beyond temporal form and identity. Your true nature is Unborn, Unconditioned, and Uncaused, outside of Time and Space.
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God (in the guise of the "firm conviction") essentially is the solution to the epistemic mystery. Until and unless the mystery arises, there is no solution and no God.
godnotgod
Thou art That
To think there is 'God' or 'no God' is to see a mystery. One is still caught in duality.
'Think neither god, nor not-god'
Buddha
To think neither 'god' nor 'not-god' is to suddenly free oneself. Consciousness is now awakened and transformed.
Prometheus85
Active Member
All creatures want to believe in something bigger than themselves. They cannot live without blind obedience. And to escape the pressure of that trust, those in whom faith is placed in turn look for someone higher than themselves. And then those people in turn look for someone even stronger. That is how all Kings are born. That is how all Gods are born.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It has basis in my personal experience, my awareness of being a person separate from other people. It is confirmed my my beliefs, but so what?
We become who we are as we go through life and learn and grow spiritually. Our true self is our real identity, to the extent that we are able to reflect the attributes of God inherent within us... It is not our body image or what we project to others or what we imagine ourselves to be.
“How resplendent the luminaries of knowledge that shine in an atom, and how vast the oceans of wisdom that surge within a drop! To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the Heavenly Books and the Holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme. Even as He hath revealed: “We will surely show them Our signs in the world and within themselves.” Again He saith: “And also in your own selves: will ye not, then, behold the signs of God?” And yet again He revealeth: “And be ye not like those who forget God, and whom He hath therefore caused to forget their own selves.” In this connection, He Who is the eternal King—may the souls of all that dwell within the mystic Tabernacle be a sacrifice unto Him—hath spoken: “He hath known God who hath known himself.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 177-178
I believe in oneness with everyone and everything. That is the basis of my religion. Oneness of Humanity
However, we can be one with everyone and still retain our individuality.
godnotgod
Thou art That
You said:
"The self originates with the soul which comes into being at the moment of conception."
You cannot possibly remember that as a personal experience even if it were true. It's just your belief, based upon your indoctrination. I provided some documented information as to how the self forms months after birth. Did you pay attention, or just dismiss it?
Beliefs don't confirm anything. They're just beliefs.
You are not separate from others. That is just an illusion of the mind, which itself is an illusion. We are all interconnected one with each other and with the entire Universe.
You only think yourself separate because you have been socially indoctrinated into the state of Identification with a 'self'. What is the self but a collection of accretions in the form of experiences, images, values, and titles, all come together as 'I', acquired from the external social environment, and which arbitrarily sets itself apart in a subject/object split? That is not our true nature. That is merely our temporal identity in time and space. It is fiction.
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Trailblazer
Veteran Member
No, I did not dismiss it, but the fact that “infants have no sense of self” does not prove that humans have no self. The fact that humans do not become aware of the self until 15-18 months old does not prove there is no self.
I do not need a religious belief to know there is a self. That concept is found in both philosophy and psychology. A person cannot have self-awareness if they have no self, for example. What is it that you think they are aware of?
And articles written by psychologists etc. do not confirm anything about the self anymore than religious beliefs do. Nobody can prove these things. Science knows we have a body and a mind and my religion teaches that we have a soul that is associated with the body and mind while we are alive in a physical body. That soul is an individual soul and can thus be thought of as the self.
I have no problem with being interconnected one with each other and with the entire Universe, but “with each other” requires that we have a self to be interconnected to others.
godnotgod
Thou art That
I never said nor implied that because infants have no sense of self, it proves humans have no self. I brought up the fact that the self is not formed until a good many months after birth as a rebuttal to your assertion that the self comes into existence at the moment of conception, an assertion for which you have no basis. It's just religious belief taught to you. You have no memory of it as a 'personal experience'. You're making up crap.
The self (ie 'I') only exists when one is self-aware, and that is because it does not actually exist. It is a self-created principle. Infants are taught to be self-aware. The self is a product of our social indoctrination and comes into being as the child grows socially. If the self is present even when the infant is not aware of it during the first year or so of its life, then what evidence do you have that it exists other than via your religious indoctrination?
Just because the infant exhibits consciousness and response to stimuli does not mean there is a self present.
You accidentally burn your finger on a hot stove. Immediately there is the reaction 'OUCH!'. That is the reality. Then, immediately after that, there is: 'I burned my finger!'. But 'I' was not involved at the precise moment your finger was burned. There was only finger-burning itself, without an agent of finger-burning called 'I'. The illusory self called 'I' only THINKS it was an active agent. It wasn't because it had no knowledge that it was going to burn finger. But because 'I' always thinks it is in control, it asserts itself as the agent that burned it's finger. It happens so quickly that one thinks 'I' was involved. It wasn't because it is just a concoction of the mind. There is no 'you' that is the experiencer of your experience; there is just the experience itself, without an agent of the experience. You are that experience. Get it?
So how do you know there is a self?
Psychology is based upon careful behavioral observation which leads to the formation of hypothesis, theories, based upon data and a collection of facts. Religious beliefs are not based upon rational thought as in psychology, but upon codified doctrine, dogma, and fear.
If religious beliefs cannot confirm anything about the self then how can you assert that it comes into being at the moment of conception, an idea based upon your religious beliefs?
Your religion may teach you many things, but none of it is true just because you believe them to be true. The arbitrary belief that you have an individual soul that is the self is just a belief you maintain for whatever reason. And if there is a 'you' (ie; a 'self') that 'has' a soul, then that means there are now two entities; ie two selves, which is ridiculous. Actually, three entities, because now there is the self that is aware of the first two, ha ha ha.
No, it does not. To the contrary, it requires that the illusory self dissolves for the realization to occur that we are all interconnected as one. Now, you may interact with others with the idea that you are a separate self involved in the interaction, but that is just an idea you perpetuate. What you are is actually the experience of interaction itself. When that is SEEN for what it is, there is no self involved, just as there is no self involved in the burning of one's finger. There is only seeing itself, without an agent of seeing; only interacting without an agent of interaction. You have never been a separate self. You only THINK that you are separate because you perpetuate the idea of a self.
*****
In what sense is the self an illusion?
"For me, an illusion is a subjective experience that is not what it seems. Illusions are experiences in the mind, but they are not out there in nature. Rather, they are events generated by the brain. Most of us have an experience of a self. I certainly have one, and I do not doubt that others do as well – an autonomous individual with a coherent identity and sense of free will. But that experience is an illusion – it does not exist independently of the person having the experience, and it is certainly not what it seems. That’s not to say that the illusion is pointless. Experiencing a self illusion may have tangible functional benefits in the way we think and act, but that does not mean that it exists as an entity. "
Bruce Hood, Director of the Bristol Cognitive Development Centre at the University of Bristol
The Illusion of the Self | Sam Harris
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Jollybear
Hey
If ALL creatures cant live without blind obedience, then who do you blindly follow and what do you believe in thats bigger then yourself?
Prometheus85
Active Member
They blindly follow
blind obedience is essentially doing something because you are told, you adhere to the rules because they are the rules.
For instance the Bible. If a man would follow, today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would strictly follow the teachings of the New, he would be insane. But the Bible is the word of god and god is absolute truth. So people will following it blindly.
What’s bigger then thy self? Gods
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