How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

This would be only true if you could demonstrate either of these two:

1. Humanity does not need any guidance and can just do well on its own: in which case I ask you, why then there are so much corruptions, conflicts wars, injustice...etc?
2. Prove that the Prophets were not really God's prophet. Which off course you cannot, can you?

1) Hinduism, then known as Sanatana Dharma, survived for 2000 years at least before Christ. It survived another 2000 after, and is still thriving. It does really well without prophets. Are you somehow suggesting, that if it weren't for Christ, it would have disappeared? Do you think Hinduism improved after the Islamic invasions destroyed 100 000 temples, killing many innocents on the way. If that was an improvement, I'd hate to know if something bad happened.
2) Who said anything about proving anything. It\s all just belief. None of us can prove anything. It's silly suggesting we can.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The buddha suttas speak of knowing self and mind. Bahaullah tauht heart and god. The Buddha taught to find self. Bahaullah taught to find god.

Combine the two and you have the Baha'i understanding, Baha'u'llah has a whole tablet on this subject. This is a link to a provisional translation -

He who knoweth his self hath known his Lord

This is an extract

".....Thou has asked about the saying, "Whoso knoweth his own self hath known his Lord." It is well known to thee that this statement hath, in every one of the infinite worlds, wondrous meanings according to the exigencies of that world, of which no one else hath or ever will have any knowledge. Were all of this to be discussed as it deserveth, all the pens of the universe and oceans of ink would not suffice. However, a droplet from this most great, endless ocean shall be mentioned, that perhaps seekers might be enabled to reach their destination and wayfarers might attain the original goal. God guideth whoso He desireth to the path of the Mighty, the Powerful, the Omnipotent."

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Just to explain what Covenant Breaker is.
You see, if you are not a Baha'i, and you do not say, you believe in Baha'ullah as a Manifestation of God, then you are being honest. You are not considered hypocrite. You as someone who already does not believe in Baha'ullah, may continue questioning Baha'u'llah. That is up to you.
But suppose a man claims to be a Baha'i, and considers himself a believer in Bahaullah, the Manifestation of God. Yet, he continues questioning and opposing the authority of Bahaullah and Those who Bahaullah asked Bahais to obey. Now is this not hypocrisy? It is obvious that such hypocrites are only pretenders, trying to abuse. These are the ones UHJ excommunicates.

Yes I knew that. It's Baha'i' belief. Many direct descendants of Baha'u'llah were declared Covenant Breakers by Effendi. I read that Effendi eliminated all other male descendants using this method. But my sources are non-Baha'i', so I'm not sure. Clearly there isn't much room for persistent questioning, is there?

 

[oldbadger]

All the Laws of the Bab served a purpose for His Revelation, which was to end the Age of Prophecy and open the Age of Fulfillment. This is an enormous subject within itself.

The important thing is that all the Babs Laws were dependant upon the 'One whom God will make Manifest', implementing them in His own Book.

Thus when Baha'u'llah declared that He was the one foretold by the Bab, all the laws of the Bab'i Dispensation were either comfirmed or abrogated by Baha'u'llah in His book of Laws the Kitabi-aqdas.

The Kitabi-aqdas contains the Laws for this dispensation that will last for at least 1000 years.

Regards Tony

The Babi Faith was abrogated?
Then clearly the Bahai numerology about 1844 is meaningless.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Combine the two and you have the Baha'i understanding, Baha'u'llah has a whole tablet on this subject. This is a link to a provisional translation -

He who knoweth his self hath known his Lord

This is an extract

".....Thou has asked about the saying, "Whoso knoweth his own self hath known his Lord." It is well known to thee that this statement hath, in every one of the infinite worlds, wondrous meanings according to the exigencies of that world, of which no one else hath or ever will have any knowledge. Were all of this to be discussed as it deserveth, all the pens of the universe and oceans of ink would not suffice. However, a droplet from this most great, endless ocean shall be mentioned, that perhaps seekers might be enabled to reach their destination and wayfarers might attain the original goal. God guideth whoso He desireth to the path of the Mighty, the Powerful, the Omnipotent."

Regards Tony

I know you guys say "and".

The buddha's foundation is of mind only. Not two foundations only one.

As a result of training of the mind without god, experiences of say compassion of (not from) the heart develops.

Bahai teachings are different (aka, we have diversity here) than The Buddha's.

Differences=diversity

It isn't a nasty concept.

--

Also, you have to at least be interested in what I say: I cannot understand Bahaullah's writings. I keep repeating this.

Please repeat it in your own words.

 

[Vinayaka]

I do not offer arguement but an observation on that comment.

Baha'u'llah has called us rise above this restrictive mindset as portrayed within this comment.

He has called us to embrace our oneness as humanity and a oneness of purpose.

He has called us to find the good in all things, the good that comes from One God in all the Faiths you suggest were unnecessary, who in turn could suggest the same irrelevance about non Abrahamic faiths, to which is an insult either way.

It is a great thing to see that all the Great Beings gave us Faith that leads to a common Goal, that is to truly know our own selves.

What a great foundation for our exceptance of all peoples and the Faith that defines them.

Regards Tony

Two cars can travel from Perth to Normanton, both arriving safely, and having had absolutely no interaction whatsoever, neither depending on the other at all. Same goes for religions. The dnarmic paradigm doesn't need the Abrahamic paradigm, nor does the Abrahamic paradigm need the dharmic paradigm. Christians have told me to my face that I NEED Christ. Well, guess what, I'm still here, and so are 900 million other Hindus that don't believe we do. It's like the non-vegetaians used to tell me I NEEDED meat, or the physical body would die. Here I am, 45 years a vegetarian, and amazingly, against all rationality and science, I'm sitting here writing this to you. It's a miracle, I say.

There is no common goal, Tony. Please do some comparative religion study, and respect what others say before using folly to make an overgeneralised simplification like that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I cannot understand Bahaullah's writings. I keep repeating this.

Apparently very few people can. It's a lot of disorganised mumbo-jumbo. Many Baha'i' admittedly don't read much of it for this reason. Yes, there are probably a few wise gems hidden inside it all. I had a district psychologist once who consulted with teachers like me on ideas for approaching specific kids' problems at school. He'd throw out 50 random ideas, and 3 of them would be absolutely excellent.
Look:
".....Thou has asked about the saying, "Whoso knoweth his own self hath known his Lord." It is well known to thee that this statement hath, in every one of the infinite worlds, wondrous meanings according to the exigencies of that world, of which no one else hath or ever will have any knowledge. Were all of this to be discussed as it deserveth, all the pens of the universe and oceans of ink would not suffice. However, a droplet from this most great, endless ocean shall be mentioned, that perhaps seekers might be enabled to reach their destination and wayfarers might attain the original goal. God guideth whoso He desireth to the path of the Mighty, the Powerful, the Omnipotent."

Who could make sense of this?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The Babi Faith was abrogated?
Then clearly the Bahai numerology about 1844 is meaningless.

I do not see this as a question when you offered a conclusion without an answer. This method shows an intent prior to clarification.

You have read what was said wrongly. The transfer of the Babs Law was being discussed and that the Bab said His laws required Baha'u'llah to implement them or not to.

It was then said what is in the Kitabi-aqdas are now the Laws for the Baha'i Dispensation.

Thus some of these Laws were the Babs, some Baha'u'llah changed and some were new.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm still here, and so are 900 million other Hindus that don't believe we do.

A consideration here is that you consider you may have many lives to live, a Christain may suggest your goal can be found in this life.

By each dismissing each other it could be you both miss out on what is the Goal.

It is not about making it simpler, it takes courage to look beyond what is comfortable for us.

Regards Tony

 

[oldbadger]

I do not see this as a question when you offered a conclusion without an answer. This method shows an intent prior to clarification.

There you go again.
Where is the answer to my question?
And so I will ask again: The Babi Faith was abrogated?

 

[Vinayaka]

A consideration here is that you consider you may have many lives to live, a Christain may suggest your goal can be found in this life.

That seems like a clear admission people actually do believe in different goals, a clear contradiction for your earlier post. (13761) There is no common goal. You just have to google 'goal of life according to _______ (any religion) " and you'll get the drift.

 

[Vinayaka]

There you go again.
Where is the answer to my question?
And so I will ask again: The Babi Faith was abrogated?

'Abrogated' is too big of a word for me. Tone it down, mister.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is not about making it simpler, it takes courage to look beyond what is comfortable for us.

We are comfortable with where we are now. We have separate goals that work for us. We can work with other people because our individual goals provide support and less need to prove validity of our own experiences and knowledge to others. It lets us look beyond needing "one goal" to develop a sense of humility, compassion, empathy, and unconditional love for people who do not believe as each of us do.

"By each dismissing each other it could be you both miss out on what is the Goal."

This is why there are wars Tony. We are not missing out on anything. If you believe in unity among diversity you'd understand this.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Who could make sense of this?

Those that try to.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

On a side note, am I the only person that finds it odd when asked, 'Have you considered _____________?'

We're all (well most of us anyway) rather well traveled in these kinds of discussions. Several of us have been in Piaget's stage of formal thought (adolescence and beyond) for 40 or more years. Yes, we've considered stuff. We've all considered a lot of stuff. We've delved into it, thought about it, talked it over with others, maybe even fixated on it, and we've come to our own conclusions. To ask 'Have you considered _________?' is, well, to put it out there, not too bright, because 99.9% of the time the answer all around would be, 'Yes I have."

 

[Vinayaka]

Those that try to.

Regards Tony

Oh I tried. I tried hard in high school to get calculus and Shakespeare, too. I guess I'm just too darn dumb to ever be a Baha'i'.

 

[Vinayaka]

"By each dismissing each other it could be you both miss out on what is the Goal."

To add to the irony, Baha'is easily dismiss our beliefs, but simultaneously ask that we don't dismiss their beliefs, all the time not seeing that.

 

[oldbadger]

'Abrogated' is too big of a word for me. Tone it down, mister.

Heh heh........... !
Tony used it, to my surprise.

Once before I read somewhere that Bahauallah 'abrogated' Islam, and so when Tony wrote..............

Thus when Baha'u'llah declared that He was the one foretold by the Bab, all the laws of the Bab'i Dispensation were either comfirmed or abrogated by Baha'u'llah in His book of Laws the Kitabi-aqdas.

......... that prompted me to ask the question.

The point is, Bahauallah confirmed or annulled Christian Laws, Rules and Guides and Mosaic Laws, which immediately caused me to question this, because that would render the whole Babi Faith to be redundant.......... abrogated, annulled, ended........

Jesus never annulled anything that the Immerser said or did. The Immerser annulled the sacrificial laws, not Jesus, who supported the whole 507 laws which comprised the rest of Mosaic Law.

It just does not fit together, no matter how smooth the word salads which attempt to promote it all.

 

[siti]

Did you write a book about this?
Is 'Proverbs of Rational Spirituality' yours?

Do tell us more, please.

Sadly no...I only wrote the first verse of the first chapter and that was published for the very first time in the post you were responding to. No, my intention was to point out that really we should all be writing our own scripture - even if our own scripture consists entirely of a flat rejection of any concept of "God". Nietsche did that..."God is dead" - and if that's how you best relate to the greater reality that we're part of, 'nuf said as far as I am concerned.

If I were to write a book about entitled Proverbs of Rational Spirituality for the benefit of future generations, the second verse would be a commandment: "thou shalt take nothing on the basis of imagined religious authority but shalt think for thyself at all times and believe only what makes sense to thyself" - but again, that is simply restating a deist principle methinks.

 

[oldbadger]

To add to the irony, Baha'is easily dismiss our beliefs, but simultaneously ask that we don't dismiss their beliefs, all the time not seeing that.

Also the very core of Christian Creeds and Beliefs, dismissed, yet there is this insistence that all these religions layed down the foundations of Bahai....

It's true double-think, all the way through.
And they don't see it.