How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

I agree with you that religion nowadays has become an unimportant competition of who is the greatest rather than striving for things like ahimsa which would make a real difference to the world.

Not all religion. Lots of us don't proselytize to try to get larger, or brag of numbers. Competition, when taken away from a simple game between friends, for fun, with detachment to outcome on both sides, is an instinctive mindset we could do without. At one time perhaps it was a genetic trait for survival, but that reason has long since dissipated.

 

[Vinayaka]

People who asked too many questions or found too much evidence about Christianity's wrinkles suffered horrific deaths, very quickly, and a couple of recent responses to my posts leave me wondering about what could happen to any who migt dig around in the history of bahai in a bahai world............. after all, they would think that they were protecting God's plan, and were doing righteous and 'spiritual' things. Bbrrrrrr........... *shivers*

They got excommunicated, (declared Covenant breakers) and now lose their voting rights. Excommunication is no longer burning at the stake at least. Reminds me of medieval kings and queens with their power struggles.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think we would have to extricate ourselves from this system based upon materialism and consumerism or establish a spiritual one based on virtues if we want to help people follow their teachings. Under the current system people are being drawn away from religion.

That being drawn away, is an incredible step up, in many cases. Some archaic religion has been the cause of great suffering. Much better to be nothing at all than to be a member of some hate-filled middle-ages faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

Clearly a great many people did feel Buddha's Teachings met a need that wasn't being met at the time, so almost by definition that represents a progression for them. Moving from the Christianity to the Baha'i faith represented a progression for me, not merely an alternative.

You must have some ideas about why the change. My Faith doesn't specify to my knowledge that there was such a progression, but I presume there was. Its just another theory to explore and test out.

I recall you mentioned earlier in the thread about the continuous process within Santana Dharma and of course if they were truly able to have the direct mystical experiences and revelations from God or the spiritual realm we wouldn't need these other maniifestations, especially not the Abrahamic Ones. But we would need to examine the life and teachings of a guru to answer that question, don't you think?

Splits happen. Change happens. The reasons vary. Buddha spoke about God in a slightly different way than earlier, that appealed to some folks. A shift, sure, but progressive, that's debatable.

I can give a simple example. A Christian congregation in a local town (my spouse's relatives were involved) were faced with the national body's decision to allow gay marriage in their liberal church. When it was officially announced, some of the congregation got up and left. They formed a new church the following week. So things die off, get renewed, shift about, and all that. New dynamic leaders come along, some last, some don't, and it all remains complex. Each new group feels theirs suits them personally better than the previous one, and the people who stay back often say 'Good Riddance!'

I don't get the 'progressing' ideas at all. Religions on this planet are far too complex to put it all into such a neat little package like that. It just misses out on so much. Hinduism had ahimsa and advanced techniques of yoga in it from the days of Tiruvalluvar and Patanjali. Are you actually saying the Christian Crusades and Muslim invasions were a progression? Frankly, that's preposterous.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The world is in need of more spirituality, better morals and virtues. Whatever helps achieve this is worthy of consideration. You may be contributing your share of goodness but perhaps we need much more.

I feel the better way to go about this is to address the people. For example, I disagree that Catholicism needs to have bahaullah in it for people to follow. One lady was distraught about her sexuality when we met in person. Instead of saying follow The Buddha, I directed her to her own faith and said kindly that confession may help. I wasnt Catholic at the time but I hoped she found her way in her faith Not my own and definitely not a new version of hers.

I did not need to bring up The Buddha in order to help others "towards" their current faith.

If anything, bahaullah should stay in bahai no other religion. Christ in christianity. Muhammad in Islam. The Buddha and buddhas in Buddhism and all Hindu gods and goddesses in hinduism. No progression. No same source.

Wars happen (say catholicism) when people try to make others follow the same source. It does not matter how any faith does it nor intent. It causes friction.

You can see a less than one percent of that on this thread. Can you imagine if this is at a global level? It would affect not just people on the news but me and you and people on this thread.

Help people follow their current faith if asked not Bahaullahs interpretation of their faith. This is called empathy and unconditional love.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If everyone was spiritually advanced we wouldn’t have the problems we have now. I think that’s the main point here.

What does that mean "spiritually advanced?"

We are growing in Our Own faith. You, me, and individual people on the news. We are all people.

Maybe spiritually advanced defined by our individual faiths would be better.

 

[Vinayaka]

What does that mean "spiritually advanced?"

We are growing in Our Own faith. You, me, and individual people on the news. We are all people.

Maybe spiritually advanced defined by our individual faiths would be better.

Good point. It's an incredibly vague concept.

 

[Vinayaka]

I recall you mentioned earlier in the thread about the continuous process within Santana Dharma and of course if they were truly able to have the direct mystical experiences and revelations from God or the spiritual realm we wouldn't need these other maniifestations, especially not the Abrahamic Ones.

I would argue we didn't need the Abrahamic 'prophets', yes. As a Hindu living in another paradigm, they all seemed rather unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. But different geography, different mindset, sure.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I would argue we didn't need the Abrahamic 'prophets', yes. .

This would be only true if you could demonstrate either of these two:

1. Humanity does not need any guidance and can just do well on its own: in which case I ask you, why then there are so much corruptions, conflicts wars, injustice...etc?
2. Prove that the Prophets were not really God's prophet. Which off course you cannot, can you?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What does that mean "spiritually advanced?"

We are growing in Our Own faith. You, me, and individual people on the news. We are all people.

Maybe spiritually advanced defined by our individual faiths would be better.

For Baha'is, Spirituality means, having the good attributes of a human, such as; kindness, wisdom, forgiveness, patience, ...etc. Being spiritually advance would mean, to have more of these qualities. Is it bad to have good qualities? Is that too hard to understand. Lol

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't get the 'progressing' ideas at all. .

It is quite easy to get it actually.
All you need to do, is pick up a specific subject. Then list what each Religion taught about this particular subject, and see if Baha'i Faith has a more complete, better and practical view on it or not.
For instance, the idea of unity in diversity and universal peace.
Find what the Baha'i Scriptures actually say about this subject, and then quote from previous Religions as well. For example see what Quran, Bible, veda, and other religions teach about it. If you say, your religion does not have any Scriptures, then to me, anybody can make up anything and attribute it to your religion, saying, this is how I am personally experiencing.

.

Religions on this planet are far too complex to put it all into such a neat little package like that. It just misses out on so much. Hinduism had ahimsa and advanced techniques of yoga in it from the days of Tiruvalluvar and Patanjali. Are you actually saying the Christian Crusades and Muslim invasions were a progression? Frankly, that's preposterous.

The Religions are indeed complex, and very difficult or impossible to grasp them fully, so, why not be humble towards them, rather than saying we understand them completely.

 

[oldbadger]

It would be useful to have you outline some of the laws Moses outlined for the welfare of the poor.

No probs.
Some are copied below.
Imagine how these could be inserted into commerce, industry, retail etc.
Example: In the UK most retailers are worried about staff scams, discarded stock scams, blah blah, and because of this everything that is thrown away is smashed up or spoiled completely so that it cannot be utilised in any way. That includes food, toys, everything! Under Mosaic law the retail trade would be banned from doing that.

And so, if you expand what you read below into the whole world, it's just fantastic.

And don't forget, I'm not Jewish.

THE POOR!
Well-to-do are required to lend to the poor (Ex. 22:24)
Neighbours must help each other with difficult labours (Ex.23:5)
Not to demand from a poor man repayment of his debt, when the creditor knows that he cannot pay, nor press him (Ex.22:24)
Not to exact a pledge from a debtor by force (Deut. 24:10)
Not to keep the pledge (tools etc) from its owner at the time when he needs it (Deut. 24:12)
Not to refrain from making a loan to a poor man, because of the release of loans in the Sabbatical year (Deut. 15:9)
Not to take a pledge from a widow (Deut. 24:17)
Leave corners of fields and orchards for the poor (Lev.19:9 Lev. 23:22)
Do not gather gleanings but leave them for the poor (Lev. 19:9)
Not to gather single grapes from the ground (Lev.19:10)
The second tithes in the 3rd and 6th sabbatical years are for the poor (Deut. 14:28-29)
Payed up or not, debts will be layed aside in the seventh year (Deut. 15:2)
Wealthy are obliged to subsidise a poor man (Deut. 15:7)
Everybody must support the poor according to their means (Deut. 15:11)
Forgotten sheaves or fruit must be left for the poor (Deut. 24:19 -20)
Imperfect vines of grapes to be left for the poor (Lev.19:10 Deut. 24:21))
Don't demand or force a debt be repayed if the poor can't pay (Ex.22:24 Deut. 24:10)
Not to loan by pledge upon cooking pots, tools, etc (Deut.24:6)
Lenders may not keep pledged tools if the owner needs them for work (Deut. 24:12)
Lend to widows pledge free (Deut. 24:17)
Not to afflict an orphan or a widow (Ex. 22:21)
Not to reap the entire field (Lev. 19:9; Lev. 23:22)
Not to return to take a forgotten sheaf (Deut. 24:19)
....and.....This applies to all fruit trees (Deut. 24:20)
Not to refrain from maintaining a poor man (Deut. 15:7)

 

[oldbadger]

You sound like you know a lot about the laws the Bab revealed, but do you really? What did the Bab reveal about marriage, and were the laws ever applied during the Babi dispensation? If not why not? Were the Bab's laws applicable to the Baha'i era.

No...... but whilst trawling around for other info I happened upon some laws which the Bad wrote, something quite new to me.
Some of these are absolutely shocking, and since they were written after 1844 then they must be part of the bahai dispensation surely?

If these would be dragged out of the cupboard and bunged on to the legislation later, then..... Wow!

It's plain simple that the more I look around so the more worrying stuff I find.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

For Baha'is, Spirituality means, having the good attributes of a human, such as; kindness, wisdom, forgiveness, patience, ...etc. Being spiritually advance would mean, to have more of these qualities. Is it bad to have good qualities? Is that too hard to understand. Lol

Lol when you trust that these religions have these qualities without bahaullah, of course. The qualities of christianity, hinduism, bahai, and buddhism have different definitions of these virtues. Once you understand that and differing foundations, then we can have "spiritual advancement" as long as we want people to be "like us" that wont happen.

Love ia different between Hindu and Christian yet Bahai sees them the same. That causes a problem in itself. Maybe Bahai does not see it because they focus on bahaullah interpretation of christian and hindu scriptures but blind to the effect it has on others contradict bahai goals.

Its interesting to observe this. I cant think of how to rephrase it. Maybe you dont understand. I dont know.

Edit: Reading some of your other posts on this page, it sounds like its getting more condescending or sarcasti , if one of these the right word.

 

[oldbadger]

They got excommunicated, (declared Covenant breakers) and now lose their voting rights. Excommunication is no longer burning at the stake at least. Reminds me of medieval kings and queens with their power struggles.

In the UK (16th cent) we were burning Protestants and Catholics on the same day!

My daughter got shoved by the bus bomb blast on 7-7-05 as she walked to the Lister Hospital, through Russel Gardens.

I heard the Pub bombing in Guildford circa 73'.

Religious execution just won't go away.

 

[Sundance]

Lol when you trust that these religions have these qualities without bahaullah, of course. The qualities of christianity, hinduism, bahai, and buddhism have different definitions of these virtues. Once you understand that and differing foundations, then we can have "spiritual advancement" as long as we want people to be "like us" that wont happen.

Love ia different between Hindu and Christian yet Bahai sees them the same. That causes a problem in itself. Maybe Bahai does not see it because they focus on bahaullah interpretation of christian and hindu scriptures but blind to the effect it has on others contradict bahai goals.

Its interesting to observe this. I cant think of how to rephrase it. Maybe you dont understand. I dont know.

Lol when you trust that these religions have these qualities without bahaullah, of course. The qualities of christianity, hinduism, bahai, and buddhism have different definitions of these virtues. Once you understand that and differing foundations, then we can have "spiritual advancement" as long as we want people to be "like us" that wont happen.

Love ia different between Hindu and Christian yet Bahai sees them the same. That causes a problem in itself. Maybe Bahai does not see it because they focus on bahaullah interpretation of christian and hindu scriptures but blind to the effect it has on others contradict bahai goals.

Its interesting to observe this. I cant think of how to rephrase it. Maybe you dont understand. I dont know.

While this post was not explicitly addressed to me, Carlita, my faith is given mention so I feel the desire to comment here.

It is not that Bahá’ís see the various religions as all saying the same things, rather that they address the same reality, albeit with vastly different approaches. Different ways of viewing the same thing. What is that thing? In a word, LIFE. Life is the one reality that is one and the same for all of us. Different individuals and groups have different perspectives of life. These are where the differences are, not in what is viewed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No...... but whilst trawling around for other info I happened upon some laws which the Bad wrote, something quite new to me.
Some of these are absolutely shocking, and since they were written after 1844 then they must be part of the bahai dispensation surely?

All the Laws of the Bab served a purpose for His Revelation, which was to end the Age of Prophecy and open the Age of Fulfillment. This is an enormous subject within itself.

The important thing is that all the Babs Laws were dependant upon the 'One whom God will make Manifest', implementing them in His own Book.

Thus when Baha'u'llah declared that He was the one foretold by the Bab, all the laws of the Bab'i Dispensation were either comfirmed or abrogated by Baha'u'llah in His book of Laws the Kitabi-aqdas.

The Kitabi-aqdas contains the Laws for this dispensation that will last for at least 1000 years.

Regards Tony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

While this post was not explicitly addressed to me, Carlita, my faith is given mention so I feel the desire to comment here.

It is not that Bahá’ís see the various religions as all saying the same things, rather that they address the same reality, albeit with vastly different approaches. Different ways of viewing the same thing. What is that thing? In a word, LIFE. Life is the one reality that is one and the same for all of us. Different individuals and groups have different perspectives of life. These are where the differences are, not in what is viewed.

All revealed religions point to god. Each revealed religion is a progression of the past. All revealed scriptures point to Bahaullah as the manifestation of this time. In a thousand years another manifestation will show. There are two peace: lesser and greater. Lesser world peace has to do with politics. Greater world peace focuses on all being back with god. Bahai says god they believe is the god of abraham; this is inline with Islam views. The purpose of both peace is to have unity among all revealed religions. By doing so, a new system of belief (unity) will replace differences (what bahaullah says is division; causes wars) with that of the same goal: god.

Life is defined by god of abraham. All revealed scriptures are not correct. The reason is many followers have changed their scriptures. The real scriptures, interpretations from bahaullah, people have stopped following. As a result, we lack have lesser world peace. Greater world peace is hoped among all but not expected in this life time.

The hope in this thread is to offer bahaullahs teachings. In offering (and quoting) readers will understand the real message. Yet, bahai accept those of different religions. At the same time they say they are walking away from their own true true religions. Not all religions promote unity. Bahai says yes. Reality is defined differently in all religions. Bahai sees reality for all the same.

Christians believe in the trinity. Bahai says its false. They respect followers views. They dont respect the validity of their teachings.

The Buddha does not speak of god of abraham. Bahai says otherwise. They respect Buddhist views. Many have Buddhist spouses and friends. They dont respect the validitybof the suttas as present only interpretationz of bahaullah.

Islamic views are outdated (as with other religions). A new islamic faith (bahai) emerged.

Hindu does not believe in the god of abraham. There is no progression and no prophet. Krishna is god in his own right not god of abraham. he is an incarnation of vishnu and vishnu of brahma. The focus of experience is that of brahmam. god of abraham is that of the creator. the former is whats practiced into validty. Ths later believed by sacred scripture unto validity.

The buddha suttas speak of knowing self and mind. Bahaullah tauht heart and god. The Buddha taught to find self. Bahaullah taught to find god.

Krishna and The Buddha are not prophets. Dharma religions are not sacres text religions. Validity comes from practice and not through bloodline but whose practiced unto experise in their faith. Krishna and Maitreya are not future prophets. Maiteya brings The Buddha teachings. Krishna IS god he brings nothing. God is in all.

I can go on. Remembered this by heart.

Its the same foundation of all faiths: one reality: one truth: one god.

This is not true.

That is the issue with this thread. We are not asking people to compromise their beliefs but to be interested in our beliefs and validity and not trying to prove ones own.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

They got excommunicated, (declared Covenant breakers) and now lose their voting rights. Excommunication is no longer burning at the stake at least. Reminds me of medieval kings and queens with their power struggles.

Just to explain what Covenant Breaker is.
You see, if you are not a Baha'i, and you do not say, you believe in Baha'ullah as a Manifestation of God, then you are being honest. You are not considered hypocrite. You as someone who already does not believe in Baha'ullah, may continue questioning Baha'u'llah. That is up to you.
But suppose a man claims to be a Baha'i, and considers himself a believer in Bahaullah, the Manifestation of God. Yet, he continues questioning and opposing the authority of Bahaullah and Those who Bahaullah asked Bahais to obey. Now is this not hypocrisy? It is obvious that such hypocrites are only pretenders, trying to abuse. These are the ones UHJ excommunicates.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would argue we didn't need the Abrahamic 'prophets', yes. As a Hindu living in another paradigm, they all seemed rather unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. But different geography, different mindset, sure.

I do not offer arguement but an observation on that comment.

Baha'u'llah has called us rise above this restrictive mindset as portrayed within this comment.

He has called us to embrace our oneness as humanity and a oneness of purpose.

He has called us to find the good in all things, the good that comes from One God in all the Faiths you suggest were unnecessary, who in turn could suggest the same irrelevance about non Abrahamic faiths, to which is an insult either way.

It is a great thing to see that all the Great Beings gave us Faith that leads to a common Goal, that is to truly know our own selves.

What a great foundation for our exceptance of all peoples and the Faith that defines them.

Regards Tony