How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

I've just been told that Kriskna was a man who literally advised Arjuna during a war that really happened. Krishna was a manifestation of a diety, a soul released into a bodily form or avatar. The next avatar is Kalki.

The avatar concept is different than the manifestation concept, although I may be wrong, since neither apply to me personally. My understanding is that an avatar is a person and simultaneously God. A manifestation of God, OTOH, isn't God. If it was, then you would call Baha'u'llah God, or Muhammad God. The two words, Baha'u'llah, and God would be synonymous, and hence interchangeable. I could be wrong, but I don' think that's how Baha'i' view it. In Hinduism, any version (name) of the supreme God, whether it be Krishna, Siva, Shakti, etc. is interchangeable with the term God. So to me, saying 'Sive permeates the universe, is identical to 'God permeates the universe'.

Perhaps the distinction is subtle, but its still there.

 

[Vinayaka]

We don't want you getting banned from RF Tony.

If someone is consistently unable to follow the rules of the forum, they get banned. A couple of warnings won't do that. Clearly the definition of proselytizing varies.

 

[Vinayaka]

All we can justly and fairly do is agree to disagree and each go His/her own way.

I think it's the hypocrisy that bothers me. Most groups who openly won't accept practicing homosexuals don't make inclusiveness claims. I could be wrong, but I think the Baha'i' do say they're open to all. To me, that statement means 'without exception'. So I have no problem with any religious group having membership rules, just so long as they don't claim to be open to all. The temple building society here I use to be a member of certainly isn't open to all. It's laid out in the constitution under requirements for membership.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've just been told that Kriskna was a man who literally advised Arjuna during a war that really happened. Krishna was a manifestation of a diety, a soul released into a bodily form or avatar. The next avatar is Kalki.

Yes Hindus will have differing views. Good to hear from a Vaishnavite, but I\m curious if he could compare 'manifestation' with avatar'. Maybe he does see Baha'u'llah and Christ as avatars.

 

[Vinayaka]

Perhaps like the different cooks with their different foods, but all part of the one restaurant with everyone eating together we are not so different after all?

And perhaps indeed they are truly incredibly different.

 

[Vinayaka]

I dont like guessing games and indirect comments.

Explain..share...discuss...how so?

Can you exclude yourself from a party that no one is having?

But the forest waded into the ocean, bringing stars. The one exception was a comet. Surly you will understand this better now.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But the forest waded into the ocean, bringing stars. The one exception was a comet. Surly you will understand this better now.

Haha. That made my head turn crooked. I wonder if I asked @adrian009 the same thing would there be a deeper insight on it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think it's the hypocrisy that bothers me. Most groups who openly won't accept practicing homosexuals don't make inclusiveness claims. I could be wrong, but I think the Baha'i' do say they're open to all. To me, that statement means 'without exception'. So I have no problem with any religious group having membership rules, just so long as they don't claim to be open to all. The temple building society here I use to be a member of certainly isn't open to all. It's laid out in the constitution under requirements for membership.

I can see your point. But homosexuals do become Baha’is and are not excluded from joining the Faith. There is no law saying that they cannot whereas practising politicians cannot.

So a homosexual can become a Baha’i but a prime minister cannot. When he does become a Baha’i it is between him and his own conscience whether he wants to obey the teachings or not.

 

[Vinayaka]

I can see your point. But homosexuals do become Baha’is and are not excluded from joining the Faith. There is no law saying that they cannot whereas practising politicians cannot.

So a homosexual can become a Baha’i but a prime minister cannot. When he does become a Baha’i it is between him and his own conscience whether he wants to obey the teachings or not.

Yes but he can no longer practice his normal sexuality according to the rules. I would imagine, as with many faiths, some people disobey the rules, and their conscience is fine with it. So if you knew somebody like that, would you be obliged to report them?

I didn't know a politician couldn't be a Baha'i'. That is interesting.

 

[RoaringSilence]

random insert .. enjoy.. these are called nasik drums ..extremely jubilant ..played during ganpati festival

game of thrones version

 

[Vinayaka]

random insert .. enjoy.. these are called nasik drums ..extremely jubilant ..played during ganpati festival

game of thrones version

More drums ...

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes but he can no longer practice his normal sexuality according to the rules. I would imagine, as with many faiths, some people disobey the rules, and their conscience is fine with it. So if you knew somebody like that, would you be obliged to report them?

I didn't know a politician couldn't be a Baha'i'. That is interesting.

We had a situation once where a Baha’i Who was a homosexual tried to make passes at other males at the Baha’i House of Worship after a service. These people were not Baha’i s and complained to the Baha’i National Assembly.

Our Local Assembly received a letter from the National Assembly to lovingly counsel this believer that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable. He was sincere but realising that he couldn’t do these things or use the Baha’i community to satisfy his lusts he left and joined a Christian Faith but still is friends with the Baha’is.

I’m sure you can understand that we can’t allow our Temple grounds and guests to be used to stalk people.

The same would apply if a Baha’i was stalking a female. We are a religious community not a dating club.

Also some people only join to promote their business and when they get enough contacts they then spam Baha’is with marketing and we can’t accept that either.

So our National Assemblies while they dont spy on individuals do protect our Faith and our guests from harassment and sexual predators.

If one wants to lead a virtuous life and develop a good character come and bring your friends but if you only want to use our religion to promote your business or look for sex then we make it clear it’s not on.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We are told that the only thing that will truly change this world is love.

No matter peace pacts or treaties or cease fires and so on even mutual tolerance won’t really change things at all.

The reason why religion is periodically renewed is because of the loss of love over time and eventually what we end up with is billions of ‘religious’ people but intolerable crime rates, drug addiction, violence, wars, drinking, gambling casinos and millions of starving and homeless all in a world full of religions.

Once the love has disappeared the world becomes what it is now. And by renewing religion love is renewed again.

“Note thou carefully that in this world of being, all things must ever be made new. Look at the material world about thee, see how it hath now been renewed. The thoughts have changed, the ways of life have been revised, the sciences and arts show a new vigour, discoveries and inventions are new, perceptions are new. How then could such a vital power as religion—the guarantor of mankind’s great advances, the very means of attaining everlasting life, the fosterer of infinite excellence, the light of both worlds—not be made new?”- Abdul-Baha

 

[Vinayaka]

We had a situation once where a Baha’i Who was a homosexual tried to make passes at other males at the Baha’i House of Worship after a service. These people were not Baha’i s and complained to the Baha’i National Assembly.

Our Local Assembly received a letter from the National Assembly to lovingly counsel this believer that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable. He was sincere but realising that he couldn’t do these things or use the Baha’i community to satisfy his lusts he left and joined a Christian Faith but still is friends with the Baha’is.

I’m sure you can understand that we can’t allow our Temple grounds and guests to be used to stalk people.

The same would apply if a Baha’i was stalking a female. We are a religious community not a dating club.

Also some people only join to promote their business and when they get enough contacts they then spam Baha’is with marketing and we can’t accept that either.

So our National Assemblies while they dont spy on individuals do protect our Faith and our guests from harassment and sexual predators.

If one wants to lead a virtuous life and develop a good character come and bring your friends but if you only want to use our religion to promote your business or look for sex then we make it clear it’s not on.

Fortunately we've never had those problems, rather than the obvious people hanging out subconsciously around the prettier people. Nobody has ever acted on it. I don't see how whether or not you're a Baha'i' has anything to do with complaining. Surely you're not suggesting that the baha'i's themselves wouldn't complain.

On a personal level, I'd confront the guy personally. "Go away. This isn't acceptable." He'd be embarrassed to the point of not being able to return. Houses of worship have the same legal rights personal houses do. That is, we can kick anyone out if we wish to, and we have ... sort of. (Usually they just leave angry.)

 

[Vinayaka]

We are told that the only thing that will truly change this world is love.

I would agree, but from an affectionate detachment POV. You can love somebody from a distance, mean them no harm, but not interrelate either. An example is the alcoholic.

Of course, we see the spark of the divine in everyone, so hate of a person means hate of God, and of yourself. Very strong word, hate.

 

[oldbadger]

Yes but he can no longer practice his normal sexuality according to the rules. I would imagine, as with many faiths, some people disobey the rules, and their conscience is fine with it. So if you knew somebody like that, would you be obliged to report them? ........................

The above situation could apply to heterosexuals as well.
Not just with Bahai but with Christianity and maybe other religions, all people are all banned from sexual activity outside of marriage. This is a major problem because it means that couples do not know each other until after marriage. The surprises, shocks and let-downs after marriage can range from sad to terrifying.

How does your religion feel about sex before marriage?

 

[oldbadger]

The same would apply if a Baha’i was stalking a female. We are a religious community not a dating club.

Well, I expect that it could help Bahai if Bahai couples would meet and marry, wouldn't it?
It doesn't have to be smutty, but a 'meet a Bahai' section in Bahai.org might not be such a bad idea?

Also some people only join to promote their business and when they get enough contacts they then spam Baha’is with marketing and we can’t accept that either.

J.W. was a Bahai who ran a 'pension' type plan in the late 70's. He used to hold firesides which I took my wife to. He didn't just offer his services to Bahais as far as I know. He was convicted and sent to prison because his plan was something like what they (in the US) call a ponsi-scheme. Lots of elderly folks lost their savings.

If one wants to lead a virtuous life and develop a good character come and bring your friends but if you only want to use our religion to promote your business or look for sex then we make it clear it’s not on.

I'm not allowed to look for sex even if I wanted to. Mrs Badger would bash me.

 

[Vinayaka]

The above situation could apply to heterosexuals as well.
Not just with Bahai but with Christianity and maybe other religions, all people are all banned from sexual activity outside of marriage. This is a major problem because it means that couples do not know each other until after marriage. The surprises, shocks and let-downs after marriage can range from sad to terrifying.

How does your religion feel about sex before marriage?

Not to mention how many people use birth control despite it being banned, forbidden.

My religion is pretty tolerant of deviations of the norm. There are 4 or 5 levels of marriage. The ideal is arranged, over time, with absolute consent of the young adults. It gets rid of the 'dating game', which can be a mess. These days internet matching is becoming the trend.

Premarital sex is frowned upon, counseled against, yet tolerated with love when it happens. A sense of sticking together as a family overrides most everything.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm not allowed to look for sex even if I wanted to. Mrs Badger would bash me.

I have no reason to look outside marriage for the same reason I have no reason to look outside my religion. It gives me all I need, and often too much.

 

[siti]

Hi @siti , nice to see you back again. I haven't seen you on RF in a little while.

Both the food and wine analogies are really good.

Food is something we all need and nourishes us physically and keeps us healthy (depending on what we eat and quantities). The different religions through their teachings provide spiritual nourishment. Each religion has provided spiritual sustenance for people over time. John used this analogy with the mana from heaven (John 6:31-32) based on the Hebrew Bible.

Wine can be that which intoxicates or exhilirates us and brings us to another level of consciousness. Another analogy is not being able to pour new wine into old wineskins (as they burst). Mark 2:22

The revelation from God Jesus brought could not be held within the frame work of Mosaic law.

Thanks. My point was that a religion that adopts bits and pieces of other traditions might be better regarded (i.e. more widely/acceptably interpreted) as a "fusion" or a "hybrid" religion rather than an authentic revelation from God. The problem facing Baha'is in this discussion hinges around the perfectly understandable difficulty non-Baha'is have in accepting the Baha'i claim of authenticity when they can see that it clearly borrows from (and frankly, bastardizes) the traditions of other faiths.

On the other hand - it is simply following in the tried and trusted Abrahamic tradition which entire edifice is founded on the notion of prophetic succession - the gradual or successive (depending on whether you are a Jew, a Christian, a Muslim, a Baha'i or whatever) apocalypsis of God's plan for humankind. You can't be a Christian and not believe that Christ has the last word, or a Muslim and imagine that the Prophet's message can legitimately be revised. Likewise for Baha'i's (I think) - it would be impossible for a Baha'i to admit that Baha'u'llah's writings might be a less authentic interpretation of the teachings of Buddha or Krishna than those of a modern Buddhist or Hindu. It sounds arrogant on the face of it - but how else is a believing Baha'i to rationalize their faith?

It is - I guess - a paradoxical feature of religion that as the religious needs of humans change, the faces of their religions change with them and yet the same faces keep turning up as "religion" tries its best to live up to its name by re-connecting (Latin: re [again] ligare [to bind or connect]) us to the past but never quite succeeds in stuffing the new package into the old carton without breaking something.

So my question now is - since we can't stuff the new (religious ideas) into the old carton, is there something we could take out to make a better fit? Personally, I'd start with divine revelation and prophetic succession. I reckon there's still plenty of flavors that we could use to spice it up a bit without those.