How are these Great Beings explained?

[CG Didymus]

Because they believe it didn't really happen.

Who is the "they" that didn't believe the resurrection happened?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That is what I said. He was the only one left with Abraham.

However, Abraham did throw Hagar and Ishmael into the desert.

Gen 21:14 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.

Gen 21:15 And the water was spent in the bottle, and she cast the child under one of the shrubs.

Gen 21:16 And she went, and sat her down over against him a good way off, as it were a bowshot: for she said, Let me not see the death of the child. And she sat over against him, and lift up her voice, and wept.

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.

Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Gen 21:19 And God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water; and she went, and filled the bottle with water, and gave the lad drink.

Gen 21:20 And God was with the lad; and he grew, and dwelt in the wilderness, and became an archer.

Gen 21:21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt.

So according to the story Ishmael was long gone, and only Isaac was there to be sacrificed by Abraham.

*

You don't need to prove it, though. I'll believe you. Just something I read a long time ago when I was "christian" the first time.

 

[Ingledsva]

Holy Moly, you debate just to debate.

I love pot luck dinners where all bring a dish to share with all, you choose what you like.

I have no more to say

Regards Tony

That brought to mind -

I've been to many Baha'i Interfaith Discussion and Debate potlucks. They were very interesting.

These usually had Baha'i, other Muslim faiths, Christians, Jews, Native Americans, Pagans, Heathens even an occasional Shaman.

And I was also appalled at one, - when people from the religions of Abraham were telling Native Americans to burn their traditional Totems, art, and regalia, as they were "evil."

I couldn't believe that crap was still going on in this age.

*

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have another question for all Bahai on this thread.

If you guys believe that all scripture of all revealed religions are god breathed, why would Bahaullah need to correct them?

If man corrupted other scriptures but kept Bahaullah's scriptures intact, isnt that defeating the idea that all scriptures cannot be changed by man because they are inspired by god?

If you call all scripture inspired by god, why would you guys need to correct god's inspired bible but not Bahaullah's inspired words even though both are written by inspired men?

How did man corrupted the bible if you use it as an inspired word; and, why use the bible, if it was indeed corrupted?

Oh, that's right, also, why do you say we-bahai rather than we-humanity? (Not speaking for humanity but because humanity has one core, speaking as part of humanity)

 

[Ingledsva]

May you find Equality is servitude to each other, from both men an women.

That this is a path to true happiness.

I don't agree with the word - servitude. But I do understand this concept. However, Male in the image of God, and thus having power over women, society, and religion, goes beyond such, into patriarchal inequality.

The Banquet Host has provided all the choices, has left no one without a favorite dish.

All Humanity are at the Banquet table.

Regards Tony

But Baha'i don't accept all other religions. Odd when they claim God has sent messengers to the different religions over time.

*

 

[CG Didymus]

The existence of God is.The resurrection isn't.

The proof is the Great Teachers they have inspired. These were people that were raised to exalted heights and in turn raised up a community of devotees who have passed on to many generations teachings that have transformed clay into mountains and a speck into a star. The blind can see, the deaf can hear, the lame can walk the spiritual path of God. This is the true resurrection. This is the true miracle. This is the proof.



Please explain to me how that works in the real world?



This all just part of the metaphorical language such as being born again and having living waters flowing out of us. It is how we understand our relationship with God, Christ, our purpose in life, and the world to come.



We know that the Great Teachers were real, each has a book as a record of their teachings, and influence that has formed the basis of civilisations. I believe this could have only been achieved through the power of God.



When our physical body dies, our soul is reunited with God.



The flesh dies but we already have a soul or new body as we speak. The soul came into being at conception.

"The soul came into being at conception"? From that point on it is eternal? Does this mean that God is still creating new souls everyday? But only for humans? Animals were just created to live and die and be gone forever?

"Great Teachers were real, each has a book as a record of their teachings.."? Jesus didn't write a book and the book written about him isn't telling us the true story... according to the Baha'i Faith. Did Moses write the Bible? Did he write Genesis? Then who and why did the Ishmael and Isaac switch happen? Did Adam, Noah or Abraham write books?

There's a site that said there is a contradiction between what Abdu'l Baha said versus Shoghi Effendi concerning Confucius. It said:


"The infallible Center of the Covenant (Abdu’l Baha) said that Confucius was a Manifestation (Promulgation of Universal Peace, p.346), which is the position held today.


The infallible Guardian (Shoghi Effendi) states, "Confucius was not a Prophet (Manifestation)" (Lights of Guidance, p.349). He's right, he was a philosopher."

Can you explain this? Thanks.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think the reason the Bible story calls Isaac Abram's only son, is because he threw Hagar and Ishmael out into the desert to die.

His only son with him from that point, is Isaac.

So Isaac gets to be sacrificed.

*

Yes, that's the Bible story. The Quran and the Baha'i writings, for some reason, think it was changed from Ishmael to Isaac. Weird stuff going on here.

 

[CG Didymus]

I work alongside Christians most days and have many patients that are Christians. Its fine unless we start talking about religion and take extreme inflexible positions.

That's the thing, how do you keep it a peaceful and respectful talk?

 

[Ingledsva]

I guess we are lucky our parents popped us all out. It takes two by the way

May you find happiness.

Regards Tony

Of course it takes two. Well, not these days, but we'll run with it. However your teachings go beyond such and say women SHOULD raise children, and MEN should be in charge of family, and religion.

And - again - that is not equality.

Equality says either one can stay home and raise the kids, both have equal say, and either one can be the head of the Baha'i religion.

*

 

[CG Didymus]

Just a question about returning to a physical body. Why is it important to come back to this world in anothr physical body?! Why not another?

For example, as kids we don't keep returning to kindergarten otherwise all we'd learn is abc and nothing else. We move on from kindergarten to primary school, high school and university.

Reincarnation sounds to me like continually returning to the kindergarten. Why not move onto other spiritual worlds to learn higher lessons other than what this world teaches?

The next world and others likely has a completely different curriculum for our evolved souls and having learned our abc's here why not move on to the next class?

If you return as a Muslim in Afghanistan or a son of a drug lord in Colombia would that be like returning to "kindergarten"? If you were born a poor black woman in Georgia 200 years ago or the son of a rich plantation owner that owned that woman, or, if you had the chance to live both those lives, would it be like kindergarten all over again?

 

[CG Didymus]

Obviously there has been a mistake made somewhere, definitely not by Moses but by someone else maybe a recorder, that Baha'u'llah is correcting. If it was Baha'u'llah Who spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush then He would have been fully aware of what Moses originally wrote and the fact He states it was Ismael means that Moses recorded Ishmael in His original Book.

First, can you post the quote where Baha'u'llah confirms this thing about Isaac and Ishmael.

Second, why was Baha'u'llah impersonating God? Was Baha'u'llah the one who sent the plagues to the Egyptians? Did he order the killing of all the people at Jericho? Did he flood the whole world and kill everybody except Noah and his family? Does Baha'u'llah know an angel named Moroni, or was that Baha'u'llah again talking to Joseph Smith?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't agree with the word - servitude. But I do understand this concept. However, Male in the image of God, and thus having power over women, society, and religion, goes beyond such, into patriarchal inequality.



But Baha'i don't accept all other religions. Odd when they claim God has sent messengers to the different religions over time.*

We could just say, that other people do not accept Baha'i acceptance of their religion

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

These verses from Acts 2:1-5 sound like symbolic poetry to me.

1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.



Because he wishes to convey spiritual truths, not historical facts.



It is not hard to see why ones response to those who insist on a literal interpretation is to reject it outright. To take it all literally is ask people to accept the irrational as reasonbale. However there are problems with this approach.

(1) The consesus of historians is that Jesus was a real person.
(2) It is hard to ignore the spirititaul power of the gospels and how this would have had an enormous influence over such an extended period of time.



Symbolism is widely acknowledged by bible scholars to be there throughout the bible, so I don't see the problem. How much symbolism is too much in your opinion?



or written symbolically...



I don't see this as being a problem, especially when we consider that for many events they may have actually occurred and be symbolic.



I think we need to take the time to consider the symbolism and language in the NT. Jesus refers to his body as a symbol of the community of faithful believers at the last supper. The apostle Paul makes numerous references to the body of believers. For example:

The risen body of Christ is the Church:
Roman 12:5 'one body in Christ'
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 'baptised into one body'
1 Corinthians 12:25 'no schism in the body'
1 Corinthians 12:27 'you are the body of Christ'
Colossians 1:18 'He is the head of the body'
Ephesians 2:5-6 'members of His body, and His flesh'

The spiritual resurrection:
1 Corinthians 15:42-4 'it is raised in a spiritual body'
1 Corinthians 15:50 'flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom'



That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but Him may be demonstrated unto men. Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, pp. 75-76.

I said: "So I don't see why a reporter would tell us the events of the day in symbolic poetry?"
You said: "Because he wishes to convey spiritual truths, not historical facts."
So you tell me what is historical facts in Luke's Gospel and in Acts. He's reporting how Jesus did things, went places and said things. Same thing in Acts, he tells what happened to the apostles and then the story of Paul. What really happened and what is symbolic?

 

[CG Didymus]

No there isn't. That is what you as a Baha'i believe.

Abram tossed Hagar and Ishmael out into the desert.

Thus the ONLY son with Abram was Isaac.

Are we supposed to believe Abram ran around the desert and cities trying to find Ishmael so he could sacrifice him instead of the son that was right there at his side?

*

I hope Tumah is still reading this. Wow, the Jews messed up their own Scriptures hundreds of years before the Baha'i Faith and Islam? And Baha'u'llah disguising himself in a God suit and telling Moses he is God himself? Dang, this is some wild stuff.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Of course it takes two. Well, not these days, but we'll run with it. However your teachings go beyond such and say women SHOULD raise children, and MEN should be in charge of family, and religion.

And - again - that is not equality.

Equality says either one can stay home and raise the kids, both have equal say, and either one can be the head of the Baha'i religion.*

No Baha'i gets these ideas from the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

I do not see what you suggest is being said.

That is because one has to consider what you are thinking is not being said by what you extract in a quote

It would be great Injustice to Tahirih the Pure if any Baha'i would think in this manner.

Equality of station is true Equality, not sameness. What is best for a child long term if of the most great importance, our future depends upon this.

There is no head or hirachy in the Baha'i Faith. There is no Ambition to serve in any capacity but to contribute in a way that God guides us to do. To do this, there is no self, no thought of inequality. We do what must be done.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I hope Tumah is still reading this. Wow, the Jews messed up their own Scriptures hundreds of years before the Baha'i Faith and Islam? And Baha'u'llah disguising himself in a God suit and telling Moses he is God himself? Dang, this is some wild stuff.

God talking to Moses through a buring bush did not give a hint that there is symbolic meanings to these stories?

Or a person in a Belly of a Whale, or an Ark with 2 of each species of animals!

What is weird, is what we make of these stories.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Statistically, Baha'i's have a higher divorce rate than the human average. Clearly, something isn't working.

That isn't a good sign for a religion that is trying to unify the world and can't get a man and a woman to stick together in peace and harmony. I wonder what the problem is?

 

[CG Didymus]

I think it is because you did not read the complete Tablets of Bahaullah, where He explained it.

Where he explained that the book of Genesis is wrong? And has been tampered with?

 

[CG Didymus]

God talking to Moses through a buring bush did not give a hint that there is symbolic meanings to these stories?

Or a person in a Belly of a Whale, or an Ark with 2 of each species of animals!

What is weird, is what we make of these stories.

Regards Tony

So now what are you saying? That the Burning Bush was symbolic, and Baha'u'llah symbolically spoke through it?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That isn't a good sign for a religion that is trying to unify the world and can't get a man and a woman to stick together in peace and harmony. I wonder what the problem is?

Ha ha....look at the world

The problem is not the Message of Baha'u'llah...as that unfolds daily little by little day by day. Gods time not our time.

Instant gratification of the senses now highly prized and the way of life.

Regards Tony