Good, but you appear to have missed the part he said, God made a covenant and amazingly the Ishmaelites went on to become Muslims, the Great Nation of Islam.
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Pagan influence on Christianity
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Tumah
Veteran Member
A large part of it isn't all of it. The Talmud lists 10 other authors (Adam, Melchi Zedek, Abraham, Moses, Heiman, Yedusun, Asaf and three of Korah's children) and the Midrash adds two more (Solomon and Ezra).
Tumah
Veteran Member
Yeah, I did miss it, which is weird because I watched it twice. Can you link me the time?
50 secs, Land of Arabia given to children of Ishmael pbuh
1:48 - 2:02 talks about the covenant made with Hagar ra, related to the Great Nation of Ishmael pbuh.
2:10-2:18 The Rabbi is blown away thinking about how 2 Nations mentioned in the Torah are still evident today. Promises made Thousands of years ago, alive and well.
2:37-3:10 Rabbi explains following Ismael's pbuh death, his descendants were Idol worshippers and remained so until the advent of ISLAM.
4:25-5:30 Rabbi explains how the Arabs abandoned Idols and became a Great Nation.
5:40 Rabbi reiterates how amazing it is for the Covenant God made to Hagar ra was preserved.
Tumah
Veteran Member
...in the Arabian Peninsula, a part of the world that G-d gave to the Bnei Yishmael (children of Ishmael), to the children of Ishmael.
Agreed.
There is something very interesting about the B'nei Yishmael (children of Ishmael), we could talk about that for a moment. And that is that G-d made a covenant with the children of Ishmael, made a covenant with Hagar. G-d made a covenant with their son - you read Genesis 16 - and out of him would come a great nation.
Yeah, I see that.
Now, just as the survival of the Jewish people, is astounding - I mean, there are only two Biblical nations that are here today. The Jews and the Arabs, the B'nei Yishmael (children of Ishmael).
Looks about right.
What is amazing, is that for a very long time, from the time of Ishmael's death until the advent of Islam, all Muslims will tell you, that the children of Ishmael were in a state of jahilliyya. Jahilyya means stupidity or absence of knowledge, without knowledge. But they knew that they were B'nei Yishmael (children of Ishmael). And they never lost that mesorah (tradition). It was preserved. That's an amazing thing.
Yes, I got all that. He doesn't describe Islam as a fulfillment of the covenant though.
So what is really quite stunning, is that here G-d made a promise to Ishmael going back 4,000 years ago and 1,400 years ago, the Arabs still - they abandoned everything. Because according to Islamic tradition, the children of Ishmael - Muslims do consider Ishmael a prophet as well, but according to Islam, all of Ishmael's descendants were all idol worshipers. So according to Islamic tradition, for 2,600 years, but they always knew that they were children of Ishmael and never lost their identity. So now I think its amazing.
And then according to Islamic tradition, of course, Muhammad would begin a prophetic career in 610. And that would continue to 632. A prophetic career that would begin in Mecca and then end in Medina where he's buried today.
And then according to Islamic tradition, of course, Muhammad would begin a prophetic career in 610. And that would continue to 632. A prophetic career that would begin in Mecca and then end in Medina where he's buried today.
I don't even see the words "great" or "nation" there. The part where Muhammad comes in seems to be describing history rather than explaining the fulfillment of a the prophecy.
I think the covenant that G-d made with the children of Ishamel, is astounding, that we could see with our eyes that it was preserved.
So again, looking at everything here, it seems to me that the Rabbis believes that the covenant to Ishmael was fulfilled in how Arabs always maintained their identity as children of Ishmael and still exist as a nation today. I don't see him connecting this to Islam at all, except tangentially to give the historical progression and to say that this is also true according to Islam.
No, it is not right there in Genesis 3, and the Jews live and worship with the original Hebrew texts and understanding for over 2000+ years, and have never made any commentary supporting the 'Fall and Original Sin.' In fact they have made numerous commentaries citing scripture emphatically rejecting the 'Fall and Original Sin.'
Augustus
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How long is the Jewish tradition of associating Ishmaelites with Hijazi Arabs?
Was all of Arabia associated with Ishmael or only the Northern parts closer to Israel?
Britedream
Active Member
Ishmael is not an Arab, his offspring were arabized. So the covenant is not about maintaining identity.
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Ok no prob, let's go with your interpretation. We are agreed the Covenant is still seen today. The Covenant was, GOD would make them a Great Nation. 1,400 years under Islam and the Rabbi confirms the Covenant is still firmly in place. HaShem, blessed be his name, has upheld his part of the Covenant.
Well, we will have to agree to disagree for multiple reasons:
- FALL OF MAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com - "the events narrated in Gen. iii. leading up to the expulsion of Adam and Eve from Eden are held to support the doctrine of the fall of man and to be the historical warrant for its assumption."
- Bere****h 3
- Paul
- Gospel of John
- The fact that even Jews disagree on many things as one site said below:
But you are welcome to think I'm wrong.
If I can agree too! Not that it is necessary! (But, as the previous poster said, it says nothing about Islam)
Magus
Active Member
The Cuboid temple originated in Ancient Persia, they where built in the 5th century BCE, indeed there is one in Marvdasht, Iran , known as 'Ka'ba-ye Zertosht' ( the Cube of Zoroaster) built in
the Achaemenid era, which coincides with the Book of Ezra-Nehemiah , which documents the construction of the Temple in Jerusalem, in the Achaemenid province of Abar Nahara,
Cube of Zoroaster
the shape of the structure was cuboid and the black stones that were placed in the white background of its walls .
the Achaemenid era, which coincides with the Book of Ezra-Nehemiah , which documents the construction of the Temple in Jerusalem, in the Achaemenid province of Abar Nahara,
Cube of Zoroaster
the shape of the structure was cuboid and the black stones that were placed in the white background of its walls .
Tumah
Veteran Member
I'm not sure that there is such a tradition. The Talmud recognizes (at least) two distinct groups: Ishmael's kids and Keturah's kids. Maimonides (12th century) says that today, they are mixed together. I believe Hijaz is located in the Midianite territory which would make it the area belonging to one of Keturah's kids.
In the Torah, you have Ishamaelites stretched between wherever Havilah and Shur are (there are multiple locations offered as possibilities for both but they all seem to be somewhere around Arabia). I think, originally it was just the Northern part, closer to Israel as there is some interaction between say, Jacob's sons and the Ishmaelites. Keturah's kids seem to be around the rest of the Peninsula, from what I've seen. So it would also make sense with the verse about Ishmael's kids living "on the face of his brothers" meaning on the outer border of Keturah's kids' neighborhood - the northern area. Going with Maimonides though, eventually, Ishmael's kids mingle with Keturah's and all Arabians are considered Ishmaelite out of doubt.
Today though, it seems like some Jews tend to call all Arabs children of Ishmael, even though technically that may not be true. Persians, Babylonians, Assyrians - none of them have any relation to Ishmael as far as I know, but I don't think too many Jews distinguish between Syrian Arabs and Saudi. Maybe there is something I don't know.
Magus
Active Member
They are flaws with Ishmael, earlier in Genesis, Noah as 3 sons, it appears
the Arabs came from Ham, since on that side, there is Deden-Sheba-Havilah, Canaan is also the son of Ham, whom fathered Sodom & Gomorrah ,anachronistically referring to Judea & Israel, since they are technically , Canaanites.
Then there is Eber, whom fathered two sons, Joktan (younger) , whom fathered Sheba-Haviliah (again) and Peleg, that goes down to Nahor, Terah, Haran, words associated with Syria and then Abraham.
Then Sheba-Deden, appear yet again as the sons of Keturah, as well as Shuah(same as Sheba ).
Havilah , by looking at the Hebrew, ' חֲוִילָה ' , is rather similar to Hivite 'חִוִּי' ,
' Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon ' ( Judge 3:3) , Shur, could also be a form of Sur-ia ( Syria ) .
It is possible that 'Mizra' ( Egypt), could be confused with 'מִזְרָח' (Mizrach) ( the East ), so that's how the 5th Century Babylonian Exodus (from the East / Mizrach) became an Exodus out of Egypt. .
the Arabs came from Ham, since on that side, there is Deden-Sheba-Havilah, Canaan is also the son of Ham, whom fathered Sodom & Gomorrah ,anachronistically referring to Judea & Israel, since they are technically , Canaanites.
Then there is Eber, whom fathered two sons, Joktan (younger) , whom fathered Sheba-Haviliah (again) and Peleg, that goes down to Nahor, Terah, Haran, words associated with Syria and then Abraham.
Then Sheba-Deden, appear yet again as the sons of Keturah, as well as Shuah(same as Sheba ).
Havilah , by looking at the Hebrew, ' חֲוִילָה ' , is rather similar to Hivite 'חִוִּי' ,
' Hivites that dwelt in mount Lebanon ' ( Judge 3:3) , Shur, could also be a form of Sur-ia ( Syria ) .
It is possible that 'Mizra' ( Egypt), could be confused with 'מִזְרָח' (Mizrach) ( the East ), so that's how the 5th Century Babylonian Exodus (from the East / Mizrach) became an Exodus out of Egypt. .
Britedream
Active Member
The Arabs are three groups, The orignal Arabs; are ten tribes, the extinct Arabs; are no longer exist, and Arabized Arabs; are sibling of Ishmael. Arabs are tribes, if you do not belong to any of the tribes you are not an Arab; so Persians are not Arabs for example. Not all arabs ; as you can see, are desendant of Ishmael.
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Magus
Active Member
Persians are oddly never mentions in the list of Noah's sons, they are under different names, Abram grandfather is 'Nahor' ( Nahrin / Nairi ) ( a collection of Aramean tribes), two of whom, Mitani or Matai ( Medes / Midean), the other Parsuwash (Persians) , There is also ' Gadar River' ( Kedor son of Ishmael ).
Solomon ( duplicate of Ishmael), is associated with west Azarbaijan (in Iran ) , 'Takht-e-Soleyman' , so happen to be occupied in the 5th century BCE , it is possible the colonists whom settled in Judea, came from this region, hence why the colonists ethnically distinguish themselves from the native Canaanites
Tumah
Veteran Member
Islam doesn't seem to have anything to do with it, but otherwise, yes, there does seem to be a significant number of Arabs.
Magus
Active Member
Arab (עֲרָב) occurs 5 times, Arabi, 9 times, although not in the 5 Books of the Torah but in the later books, another term Arab (אֲרָב) occurs once, as a place near Hebron and עֲרָבָה is commonly used to describe Edom and Moab.
The belief, the Torah is based on Arabians, is similar to the belief of Ethiopians or Black Hebrew Israelites, for the Septuagint translate 'Cush' as 'Ethiopia' , Cush, or Kashan , is from Kar-Kassi, an ancient Medes city.
Jdg 3:8
- Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushan Rishathaim, king of Arm-Nahara ( Nairi / Medes / King Rusa )
Hab 3:7
I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction : and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
Sng 1:5
I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon
Cushan - Midean / Kassi - Medes ( Mitanni)
Kedar . Keturah ( Gadar River ) / Midean and Meden are son of Keturah
See how confused the geography is.
The belief, the Torah is based on Arabians, is similar to the belief of Ethiopians or Black Hebrew Israelites, for the Septuagint translate 'Cush' as 'Ethiopia' , Cush, or Kashan , is from Kar-Kassi, an ancient Medes city.
Jdg 3:8
- Therefore the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hand of Chushan Rishathaim, king of Arm-Nahara ( Nairi / Medes / King Rusa )
Hab 3:7
I saw the tents of Cushan in affliction : and the curtains of the land of Midian did tremble.
Sng 1:5
I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon
Cushan - Midean / Kassi - Medes ( Mitanni)
Kedar . Keturah ( Gadar River ) / Midean and Meden are son of Keturah
See how confused the geography is.
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Bad bad citation, and unethical quote mining. This is not a Jewish belief, but a description of a non-Hebrew belief if you bother to read the WHOLE citation.
You are really scrapping the bottom of the manure barrel in desparation.
From: FALL OF MAN - JewishEncyclopedia.com
"The critical school views these parallels in the light of non-Hebrew attempts to solve the problem with which Gen. iii. is also concerned, viz., the origin of evil. This problem at a comparatively early period of human thought impressed itself upon the minds of men, and, owing to the fundamental psychic unity of the human race, found similar solution. Sin and suffering, the displeasure of the gods and human misery, are correlatives in all early religious conceits. As actual man suffered, struggled, and died, this fate must have been brought upon him by disobedience to the divine will and by disregard of divine commands. Under tribal organization and law, combined responsibility on the part of the clan for the deeds of its component members was an axiomatic proposition. The guilt of the father necessarily involved all his descendants in its consequences. These two factors—the one psychological and religious, the other sociological—are the dominant notes in the various stories concerning the forfeiture of pristine happiness and deathlessness by man's sin."
I guess if you don't have a strong stance to debate, a strong offense is your only defense along with mine quoting.
IF..............
you bothered to read further you would find:
Views of the Rabbis.
The sin of Adam, according to the Rabbis, had certain grievous results for him and for the earth. The Shekinah left earth after his fall (Gen. R. xix.; Tan., Peḳude, 6). He himself lost his personal splendor, deathlessness, and gigantic stature
see Adam). All men were doomed thenceforth to die; none not even the most just, might escape the common fate: the old temptation of the serpent suffices to bring on death (B. B. 17a; Shab 55b). (emphasis mine)
Please use a little higher standards.