Do you like to gamble?

[D. Ellis Overttun]

The only people I've seen stop and pray in life or death situations (I've worked at a hospital) were people who are already theists. Do you have any evidence that this isn't a myth, let alone a 'reflex action'?

Just my father. As he grew older, I noticed that he started to think about life after death. To your point though, he did not start going to church, pray or have conversations with me about God.

Based upon your experience, it would appear you have much better data to draw upon than me.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Just my father. As he grew older, I noticed that he started to think about life after death. To your point though, he did not start going to church, pray or have conversations with me about God.

Based upon your experience, it would appear you have much better data to draw upon than me.

Minds can change, either way. That last link I gave in the post prior even talks about more soldiers losing their faith on the battlefield than gaining it. But I'm specifically talking about how people react to a life-or-death situation in the moment.

No atheists in foxholes is factually false, as there are plenty of serving atheists who have underwent life-or-death situations. Further, it's not a very flattering debate point for believers to make, as it's basically admitting that theism is a reaction to fear of death, stemming from hubris and selfishness, not out of a 'relationship with God' or intention to do good.

 

[james bond]

The only people I've seen stop and pray in life or death situations (I've worked at a hospital) were people who are already theists. Do you have any evidence that this isn't a myth, let alone a 'reflex action'?

I would say both theists and atheists at your hospital pray for the reasons I gave in #77. There's nothing wrong with it except in the mind of internet atheists . It's like tapping one's knee. Atheists believe in science (even if it is fake science) so why not pray to science? Then you can say our thoughts and prayers are with you in order to empathize with a person in times of trouble. You can also back it up by offering to help.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I would say both theists and atheists at your hospital pray for the reasons I gave in #77. There's nothing wrong with it except in the mind of internet atheists . It's like tapping one's knee. Atheists believe in science (even if it is fake science) so why not pray to science? Then you can say our thoughts and prayers are with you in order to empathize with a person in times of trouble. You can also back it up by offering to help.

You would say why? Like, how are you coming to this conclusion? Since I've become an atheist, I've never prayed, to anyone or any thing, even being in reflex actions. And it's been my observation as well as external sources which I provided you which say we aren't exceptions to the rule. I'm going to need more than "I say" to believe your assertion that it's a reflex.

 

[Skwim]

Christians help each other figure this stuff out. Luis Palau puts on these giant Christian shows like Billy Graham used to do. He invites people who are lonely, not satisfied with life to come to his show. I'm amazed at the number that show up. There's free entertainment, food booths and Christian booths. It's a good time for the family, but the main theme is to discover Christianity. Usually, it starts with John 3:16 and receiving flyers about Christianity. There are testimonies and speeches from Luis' family and friends. I've never heard Pascal's wager come up and there is no booth promoting it. It is something you read afterward. Pascal was a good computer language, but Blaise Pascal kinda missed the point with his logic.

I don't think there are many atheists/agnostics who became Christians because they were afraid of hell, do you?

Probably not, but I do think that borderline believers have often been induced into accepting Christianity because of it. In fact, without hell looming as a given destination after death---even regarding hell in its most innocuous form as a simple separation from god---why else would anyone bother with Christianity? So, yes, I do think the fear of hell is an immense driving force behind the decision to accept Jesus as one's savior. After all, it's what people are supposedly being saved from.

.

 

[D. Ellis Overttun]

Minds can change, either way. That last link I gave in the post prior even talks about more soldiers losing their faith on the battlefield than gaining it. But I'm specifically talking about how people react to a life-or-death situation in the moment.

No atheists in foxholes is factually false, as there are plenty of serving atheists who have underwent life-or-death situations. Further, it's not a very flattering debate point for believers to make, as it's basically admitting that theism is a reaction to fear of death, stemming from hubris and selfishness, not out of a 'relationship with God' or intention to do good.

I think that it is pretty tough to have a reciprocal relationship with God.

 

[HonestJoe]

I am probably missing something but I think I can take similar flaws and presumptions of Pascal's Wager and apply it to MA.

You are. The key point of Aurelius' statement is that it doesn't presume a specific god, doesn't assert that it's possible to choose to believe and doesn't presume to know any spiritual consequences of our choices in life. It could be put in simple terms as; We can't know the answer to this so lets focus on the things we can.

Pascal's Wager is about asserting that it's logical to believe in the Christian God, specifically the interpretation of the Christina God he did (though again, it's not clear Pascal necessarily intended it to be read as directly).

 

[D. Ellis Overttun]

You are. The key point of Aurelius' statement is that it doesn't presume a specific god, doesn't assert that it's possible to choose to believe and doesn't presume to know any spiritual consequences of our choices in life. It could be put in simple terms as; We can't know the answer to this so lets focus on the things we can.

Pascal's Wager is about asserting that it's logical to believe in the Christian God, specifically the interpretation of the Christina God he did (though again, it's not clear Pascal necessarily intended it to be read as directly).

I get it. Thank you.

 

[D. Ellis Overttun]

What does anyone think about Pascal's wager?

I think that I can safely say that most respondents overwhelmingly did not think much of Pascal's Wager mainly because of the assumptions or presumptions inherent in the bet. I do not think further discussion would change this sentiment. As a newbie to forums, I found the intensity of responses most interesting. Thank you all for your insights.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Perhaps. But I bet for some it does.

I'm sure it does.

 

[james bond]

Probably not, but I do think that borderline believers have often been induced into accepting Christianity because of it. In fact, without hell looming as a given destination after death---even regarding hell in its most innocuous form as a simple separation from god---why else would anyone bother with Christianity? So, yes, I do think the fear of hell is an immense driving force behind the decision to accept Jesus as one's savior. After all, it's what people are supposedly being saved from.

.

If it takes hell to convince somebody, then great. However, there is no precious evidence of it unless you die. Thus, it's still up to you. Hell's not the only final destination. You have new earth and heaven.

 

[Skwim]

If it takes hell to convince somebody, then great.

What else is there? What else is the Christian belief in salvation addressing if it isn't salvation from hell?

.

 

[Deidre]

Regardless of my faith beliefs, I'm just an incredibly cautious person. Don't like risks, don't like gambling, for fear of losing. I guess I never think ''I might win,'' so I just focus on the losing aspect of taking risks. It can be a helpful mindset, but it can be a bit boring.

 

[james bond]

What else is there? What else is the Christian belief in salvation addressing if it isn't salvation from hell?

.

>>What else is there?<<



First, you're wrong about salvation. Atheists are wrong again.

Second, why don't you find out what salvation is yourself?

I've already stated we go to heaven, the new earth and hell.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I think that I can safely say that most respondents overwhelmingly did not think much of Pascal's Wager mainly because of the assumptions or presumptions inherent in the bet. I do not think further discussion would change this sentiment. As a newbie to forums, I found the intensity of responses most interesting. Thank you all for your insights.

Ellis, you are welcome. It was an interesting thing to put out there, especially as a newbie. I've always considered Pascal's Wager to be deeply flawed, little more than a veiled threat, but as long as there are humans on this planet I suppose Pascal's Wager will survive in one form or another!

 

[Skwim]

>>What else is there?<<
First, you're wrong about salvation. Atheists are wrong again.

Second, why don't you find out what salvation is yourself?

Okay, then I'll ask you. What is salvation supposed to save you from?



In the mean time I did take the trouble to find out and came across the following

"Salvation is being saved from the righteous judgment of God upon the sinner.


A lot of people think that salvation means being saved from yourself or the devil. But that is not accurate. All who have sinned against God are under the judgment of God. This judgment is known as damnation where God condemns to eternal hell all those who have offended Him by breaking His Law."
source
​

And

There is only one true Gospel:–that salvation from the eternal wrath of God in Hell is available only through REPENTANCE and FAITH.
Thus, repentance from sin is a necessary prerequisite for faith in the cross; and it is faith in the cross that secures atonement for sin, forgiveness of sin, and ultimately, salvation from Hell
source
​

And

The Gospel of Jesus Christ: Salvation from Hell and the Way to Heaven Paperback – June 16, 2015
by John Boruff (Author)
​

And

Hell is real, but God has provided salvation from Hell through Christ.
source
​

And

Salvation requirements
To be saved from hell:

1. you need to be justified; and
2. to be justified, you need to have all your sins forgiven. But without shedding of blood is no remission.rl=

source​

So indeed, it does appear that salvation amounts to being saved from hell. Of course, I suppose your theology may be that of some left field Christian cult wherein salvation has a far different meaning, in which case it can be safely dismissed as an anomaly.

.

.

 

[james bond]

Okay, then I'll ask you. What is salvation supposed to save you from?



In the mean time I did take the trouble to find out and came across the following

"Salvation is being saved from the righteous judgment of God upon the sinner.


A lot of people think that salvation means being saved from yourself or the devil. But that is not accurate. All who have sinned against God are under the judgment of God. This judgment is known as damnation where God condemns to eternal hell all those who have offended Him by breaking His Law."
source
​

And

There is only one true Gospel:–that salvation from the eternal wrath of God in Hell is available only through REPENTANCE and FAITH.
Thus, repentance from sin is a necessary prerequisite for faith in the cross; and it is faith in the cross that secures atonement for sin, forgiveness of sin, and ultimately, salvation from Hell
source
​

And

The Gospel of Jesus Christ: Salvation from Hell and the Way to Heaven Paperback – June 16, 2015
by John Boruff (Author)
​

And

Hell is real, but God has provided salvation from Hell through Christ.
source
​

And

Salvation requirements
To be saved from hell:

1. you need to be justified; and
2. to be justified, you need to have all your sins forgiven. But without shedding of blood is no remission.rl=

source​

So indeed, it does appear that salvation amounts to being saved from hell. Of course, I suppose your theology may be that of some left field Christian cult wherein salvation has a far different meaning, in which case it can be safely dismissed as an anomaly.

.

.

>>What is salvation supposed to save you from?<<

Original sin. How long have we been talking about this? Before Jesus came, died and was reborn, we were doomed. There was no eternal life. Now, we have eternal life and chance at heaven, new earth and hell. You Only Live Twice (cue the music please).

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I would say both theists and atheists at your hospital pray for the reasons I gave in #77.

Why would we?

There's nothing wrong with it except in the mind of internet atheists .

I get what you mean by 'internet atheists' and honestly, the keyboard warrior thing pisses me off no end. But speaking for myself, the 'internet version' of me and the 'RL version' think the same. I don't take on a persona. Bad jokes and all, this is me. I have no issue with other people praying, but I wouldn't. It's as likely as you saying the Maha Mrityunjaya Mantra.

It's like tapping one's knee. Atheists believe in science (even if it is fake science) so why not pray to science?

Because it's an echo chamber? Science ain't listening. Besides which, I have no idea what you mean by 'believe in science'. You're typing on a keyboard. I assume you mean more specifically in terms of creation and evolution. It would seem uber-weird to pray to that, frankly. More power to whomever does, but it's not how I roll.

Then you can say our thoughts and prayers are with you in order to empathize with a person in times of trouble. You can also back it up by offering to help.

I generally go with 'our thoughts are with you' in order to empathize with a person in times of trouble, and then back it up by offering to help. It sounds more sincere than telling them I am praying for them. And less confusing than if I tell them I am praying to evolution.

 

[Skwim]

>>What is salvation supposed to save you from?<<

Original sin.

Okay, Taking a look at just what this original sin is from which you've been saved, I found this explanation in Wikipedia:

"Original sin, also called ancestral sin, is the Christian doctrine of humanity's state of sin resulting from the fall of man, stemming from Adam and Eve's rebellion in Eden, namely the sin of disobedience in consuming from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This condition has been characterized in many ways, ranging from something as insignificant as a slight deficiency, or a tendency toward sin yet without collective guilt, referred to as a "sin nature", to something as drastic as total depravity or automatic guilt of all humans through collective guilt."
​

So paraphrasing, you've been saved from a state of sin, characterized by anything from a slight deficiency or a tendency to sin, to total depravity. OR any automatic collective guilt. You are not plagued by any of this. Your are without sin and any tendency toward sinning. Boy! that's almost Christ-like, isn't it.


OR, is it that you've been saved from consequences of all this sinning: hell?

Giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not really Christ-like, that on occasion you do sin a bit, I'm opting for the latter conclusion; you've been saved from the consequences of all this sinning as described in post 96: hell. Biblical salvation then, is salvation from hell.

.

 

[D. Ellis Overttun]

>>What is salvation supposed to save you from?<<

Original sin. How long have we been talking about this? Before Jesus came, died and was reborn, we were doomed. There was no eternal life. Now, we have eternal life and chance at heaven, new earth and hell. You Only Live Twice (cue the music please).

Great music! I had forgotten how much I liked that song.

But to the point, how can you sin if you were tricked by the serpent?

Second, even if Adam and Eve did sin, hasn't the price already been paid since they were supposed to die (Gen 2:17)?