Can You Forgive Anything?

[viole]

The Our Father prayer is probably the best known of all the Christian prayers. The words go,
"Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth, as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and glory forever"

Thus, I ask can you forgive anything?

I found that prayer always kind of weird.

What does it mean "who art in heaven"? Are there eavesdropping fathers who can listen who art not in heaven?

And what is the sense in asking "thy will be done" and then make a list of wishes?

Ciao

- viole

 

[james bond]

I do not blame God for anything. I believe that Original Sin and Fall are based on ancient Greek and other ancient culture myths and primitive beliefs of inherited guilt.

>>I believe that Original Sin and Fall are based on ancient Greek and other ancient culture myths and primitive beliefs of inherited guilt.<<

Strange. The Doors sang people are strange.

 

[james bond]

I don't think so....
I believe the 'test' was to make sure the alteration made had taken hold

Man needs to be that creature of curiosity....even if death is the pending consequence
to know......even you must die to realize

it was actually a successful alteration

then release back into the environment
no more petri dish

might seem like a punishment
cast out of ideal living conditions to fend for yourself

but I don't believe were ever meant to live forever in these bodies

and the word.....sin.....means......without
and we live without God and heaven handing us all that we need

Jesus didn't die FOR....our sins
He died BECAUSE of them

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but the original Tree of Knowledge was not just for Adam and Eve, but for their descendants, too. This may be alternative Biblical history, but we would be living life in paradise with the ToK minus the fall.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can you really?

Should you?

Are you willing to give Nazis a free pass in order to get benefit for yourself?

 

[james bond]

Forgiveness doesn't do so much for the forgiven as it does for the forgiver. It releases the forgiver from the negative attachment. It basically depersonalizes the action because the forgiver can recognize how lost and confused the forgiven is.

So yes, people can let go of negative things and become healthier in so doing.

a light has appeared in the darkness and the ignorance didn't conquer it. all negative actions are about power struggles.

Yes, I think it's true for the forgiver when one can't find a remedy to their situation. The further response is tit for tat.

 

[james bond]

Even Jesus told us not to forgive all things while at the same time condemning the religious leaders in the strongest terms. That should give us a hint somewhere about there. Do you remember what Jesus said was the reason for divorce acceptable to God? Adultery and fornication!

Matthew 5:32: but I say unto you, that every one that putteth away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, maketh her an adulteress: and whosoever shall marry her when she is put away committeth adultery.​

If then for the sake of the sin of fornication and adultery - divorce is permitted, this means that the wronged partner does not have to forgive that person for if they had to forgive they couldn't divorce said person.

In Luke 17:3, we are told that Christians must repent if they commit serious sins against others that may be forgiven. If they do not repent, obviously the sin does not have to be forgiven.

Also consider this:

Matt 18:15 And if thy brother sin against thee, go, show him his fault between thee and him alone: if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he hear thee not, take with thee one or two more, that at the mouth of two witnesses or three every word may be established. 17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.​

As you might realize, the question of forgiveness of sin is more complex than many think. In fact, if you forgive or not does not affect God's treatment of the sinner, it only affects your own peace of mind and God's treatment of yourself. If you look at Paul in his epistles and his discussion about Alexander, I think it is, you will see that not all things are forgotten.

It comes down to this, not all relationships may be restored to previous positions. If a person behaves the rabid dog, you would be a fool to go and get bitten repeatedly by such a rapid dog. If the dog only bit you because you trespassed, and since has become friendly, perhaps prior or better relationships may be wrought .

As it says, 'deliver us from evil', and the ones who are like satan must not be forgiven. But, that does not mean you carry around in your heart a burning hate of them. It means that you let God be the avenger and rely on him to correct things. Then you can concentrate on doing good.

>>As you might realize, the question of forgiveness of sin is more complex than many think.<<

Yes, it is. One can't just say sorry and expect a big sin to just go away. Or one can't just say you're forgiven and I will just forget this happened.

 

[james bond]

I found that prayer always kind of weird.

What does it mean "who art in heaven"? Are there eavesdropping fathers who can listen who art not in heaven?

And what is the sense in asking "thy will be done" and then make a list of wishes?

Ciao

- viole

I think it's the greatest prayer.

It's referring to God the Father who art in heaven. As viole who art on earth.

As for the rest of your questions, the answers should be sought for yourself by you who art not in heaven .

 

[james bond]

Should you?

Are you willing to give Nazis a free pass in order to get benefit for yourself?

I've forgiven them, but not forgotten. Have you?

What about Darwin? I've forgiven him, but he still needs to pay for the Holocaust and the black genocide.

 

[viole]

I think it's the greatest prayer.

Oh dear. I wonder how the others look like.

It's referring to God the Father who art in heaven. As viole who art on earth.

Good idea. It is better to avoid confusion with the viole living in Andromeda.

As for the rest of your questions, the answers should be sought for yourself by you who art not in heaven .

True, lol.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Fool]

I found that prayer always kind of weird.

What does it mean "who art in heaven"? Are there eavesdropping fathers who can listen who art not in heaven?

And what is the sense in asking "thy will be done" and then make a list of wishes?

Ciao

- viole

art = be

second person singular present indicative of be; Old English eart. Also see are (v.). It became archaic in the 1800s.

 

[pearl]

Is there a particular reason that the KJV's version of the prayer is 'Our Father which art in heaven?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I've forgiven them, but not forgotten. Have you?

It's not my place to forgive the Nazis.

What about Darwin? I've forgiven him, but he still needs to pay for the Holocaust and the black genocide.

Come again?

 

[Thief]

It's rather obvious that being honest is only one option that you consider possible for you to do as I never made any such claims, nor would I.

Therefore, all you have done is to "bear false witness", and maybe you should consider whether you feel that's moral or not. I don't, and I'm not terribly fond of dealing with those who make such false accusations, so...

so you don't want to deal with the possible consequence of forgiveness?

 

[Thief]

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but the original Tree of Knowledge was not just for Adam and Eve, but for their descendants, too. This may be alternative Biblical history, but we would be living life in paradise with the ToK minus the fall.

nay....

Day Six....Man as a creation
no names....no law...no garden....
Go forth and multiply, subdue all things

I would suppose that condition of life would have continued...but
we turned on each other with that ability to dominate

Had this been allowed to continue the spirit of Man would have failed to gel

so.....a garden event
an alteration of body and mind
and a test to be sure that alteration had taken hold

test was a success

the specimens were released back into the environment

 

[Ponder This]

Forgiveness: a metaphysical point of view

I think that not only can you forgive anything, but that you must forgive everything if you want to lead a truly happy life and to maintain a healthy, rational mind.

For example, you are thinking about something w - we interupt this perfectly rational thought so that you can recall a time in your past when you were embarrassed in front of everyone - that person was so mean. Why would he do that? What was I thinking about? O yes... so the problem with not forgiving ot - this perfectly rational thought has been interrupted by the memory of a time you were hurt by s - secondary interruption as you recall an even more terrible and painful moment in your life - that g-dd-mn f-ck-ng-ssh-l- deserves to rot in Hell. O you don't believe in Hell? Well, if Hell existed, then he belongs there. Idiot, baka, fool, ...

On the other hand, once you have f -forgiven thought - orgiven everything, the associated memories from your past that come f - forgiven thought - rom holding grudges no longer hold the emotional triggers that derail your rational, clear-minded thinking.

Forgiveness is a choice that you make. It can mean the difference between a sound sleep and waking up at 4am cursing someone or something. You can forgive anyone. You can forgive anything. You can forgive imaginary gods. You can forgive your parents. You can forgive your friends. You can forgive your enemies. The choice is yours whether you allow emotional baggage to disrupt your life and cloud your thinking. Emotional baggage isn't rational. Emotional baggage doesn't help you.

Should you?

Are you willing to give Nazis a free pass in order to get benefit for yourself?

It's not my place to forgive the Nazis.

If the Nazi's harmed you, then you can forgive them.
If the Nazi's didn't harm you, then it is even more irrational for you to hold anger and resentment towards them.

If it benefits you to forgive them and it benefits others to forgive them too, then why shouldn't you and everyone else do what benefits everyone? What is the rational justification for allowing such harm to persist?

for·give

1. stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If the Nazi's harmed you, then you can forgive them.
If the Nazi's didn't harm you, then it is even more irrational for you to hold anger and resentment towards them.

If it benefits you to forgive them and it benefits others to forgive them too, then why shouldn't you and everyone else do what benefits everyone? What is the rational justification for allowing such harm to persist?

for·give

1. stop feeling angry or resentful toward (someone) for an offense, flaw, or mistake.

That seems like a wonky definition of "forgive." I'm coming at this with an understanding of "forgive" that means something more like "absolve" or "pardon."

The Nazis hurt many people directly and all of humanity indirectly.

But in saying that I shouldn't harbour anger or resentment toward the Nazis, you seem to be saying that I shouldn't find their crimes angering... IOW, that I shouldn't get upset about genocide. Do I understand you correctly? If so, I utterly reject your position.

Maybe someone who think the son of God is going to swoop down and fix the world can justify not caring about crimes against humanity, but for the rest of us, caring deeply about things like genocide motivates us to try to stop them from happening again.

 

[viole]

art = be

second person singular present indicative of be; Old English eart. Also see are (v.). It became archaic in the 1800s.

Well, I got that. My question is why it needs to be specified. Are there more fathers who are possible recipients of prayers, and some of them are not in heaven?

It is like saying: yo, viole, who live on planet earth.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

The Our Father prayer is probably the best known of all the Christian prayers. The words go,
"Our Father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come
Thy will be done
On earth, as it is in heaven
Give us this day our daily bread
And forgive us our trespasses
As we forgive those who trespass against us
And lead us not into temptation
But deliver us from evil
For thine is the kingdom, the power, and glory forever"

Thus, I ask can you forgive anything?

Yes, but I only forgive someone who asks for forgiveness and displays genuine repentance.

 

[Ponder This]

That seems like a wonky definition of "forgive."

It's the common definition.

I'm coming at this with an understanding of "forgive" that means something more like "absolve" or "pardon."

Those sound more like legal terms that have nothing to do with how you feel and more to do with the extent that the law refrains from punishing someone.

But in saying that I shouldn't harbour anger or resentment toward the Nazis, you seem to be saying that I shouldn't find their crimes angering... IOW, that I shouldn't get upset about genocide. Do I understand you correctly? If so, I utterly reject your position.

Forgiveness can't come about unless you have feelings of anger or resentment towards something. The whole point is that you shouldn't harbor those feelings because they cause further harm. Instead of practicing Ahimsa, you enter into and perpetuate violence and the cycle of suffering. The question of whether you should get angry in the first place is a separate question with it's own complexities. Hitler is dead (more than 50 years dead). Are you still angry with him? Who's going to pay for your anger? If you found out Hitler had children would you want to hunt them down and kill them because of how you felt about Hitler? Let it go man. Give it up. Who's going to pay for your anger? Your next door neighbor? O sorry man, I was just thinking about how horrible Hitler was and the terrible genocide that occurred. I'm sorry I ran over your dog. Give it up man. Let it go.

Maybe someone who think the son of God is going to swoop down and fix the world can justify not caring about crimes against humanity, but for the rest of us, caring deeply about things like genocide motivates us to try to stop them from happening again.

Some people think "caring" means "getting angry". They are confused. You don't have to be angry to want to do the right thing. If you have to get angry to want to do the right thing, then something is wrong man.

 

[james bond]

It's not my place to forgive the Nazis.


Come again?

Darwin was the catalyst for the Nazis, social Darwinism, fascism and pseudoscientific racism. Maybe Hawking can travel back in his time machine and get rid of Darwin (cause Hitler was difficult) *.

"This fundamental knowledge of heredity provided eugenicists—including Galton, who influenced his cousin Charles Darwin—with scientific evidence to support the improvement of humans through selective breeding.

The advancement of eugenics was concurrent with an increasing appreciation of Charles Darwin’s account for change or evolution within society—what contemporaries referred to as Social Darwinism. Darwin had concluded his explanations of evolution by arguing that the greatest step humans could make in their own history would occur when they realized that they were not completely guided by instinct. Rather, humans, through selective reproduction, had the ability to control their own future evolution. A language pertaining to reproduction and eugenics developed, leading to terms such as positive eugenics, defined as promoting the proliferation of “good stock,” and negative eugenics, defined as prohibiting marriage and breeding between “defective stock.” For eugenicists, nature was far more contributory than nurture in shaping humanity.

During the early 1900s, eugenics became a serious scientific study pursued by both biologists and social scientists. They sought to determine the extent to which human characteristics of social importance were inherited. Among their greatest concerns were the predictability of intelligence and certain deviant behaviours. Eugenics, however, was not confined to scientific laboratories and academic institutions. It began to pervade cultural thought around the globe, including the Scandinavian countries, most other European countries, North America, Latin America, Japan, China, and Russia. In the United States, the eugenics movement began during the Progressive Era and remained active through 1940. It gained considerable support from leading scientific authorities such as zoologist Charles B. Davenport, plant geneticist Edward M. East, and geneticist and Nobel Prize laureate Hermann J. Muller. Political leaders in favour of eugenics included U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, Secretary of State Elihu Root, and Associate Justice of the Supreme Court John Marshall Harlan. Internationally, there were many individuals whose work supported eugenic aims, including British scientists J.B.S. Haldane and Julian Huxley and Russian scientists Nikolay K. Koltsov and Yury A. Filipchenko."

eugenics | Description, History, & Modern Eugenics

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