How are these Great Beings explained?

[InvestigateTruth]

...Read the Lotus Sutra. There are thousands of Buddhas that will come thereafter. ....

I copy Wikipedia:

According to Buddhist tradition, each kalpa has 1,000 Buddhas.[12]


In another simple explanation, there are four different lengths of kalpas. A regular kalpa is approximately 16 million years long (16,798,000 years[5]), and a small kalpa is 1000 regular kalpas, or about 16 billion years. Further, a medium kalpa is roughly 320 billion years, the equivalent of 20 small kalpas. A great kalpa is 4 medium kalpas, or around 1.28 trillion years.
Maitreya - Wikipedia



If you are talking about thousands Buddhas, They will appear, in a long period of Time. That is quite similar as Bahaullah says. Bahaullah does not say, He is the Last Buddha. He says, in reality there is no Last Manifestation. Always God appears again and again.. In Buddhism terminology this corresponds to thousands and thousands of Buddhas, that will come in every about 1000 years.


But the tradition I was referring is talking about the Next Supreme Buddha, that Buddha said He comes. According to Buddha, He is the Master of Angels and Men. So, obviously He is not a regular human. He is the 'Master' as per Buddha's statement.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@loverofhumanity

The Buddha, Maitreya, devas, and gods do not need to exist for the Dhamma to exist. The Dhamma exist independent of any of the people in the suttas and sutras.

Once you cause a dependency on someone and/or something, you are not longer talking about the Dhamma. That is false Dhamma. What The Buddha talked against.

The nature of GOA religions makes their interpretation of any Dharmic religion a false Dhamma. Has nothing to do with morals. Just what the religions teach and do not teach.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I copy Wikipedia:

According to Buddhist tradition, each kalpa has 1,000 Buddhas.[12]


In another simple explanation, there are four different lengths of kalpas. A regular kalpa is approximately 16 million years long (16,798,000 years[5]), and a small kalpa is 1000 regular kalpas, or about 16 billion years. Further, a medium kalpa is roughly 320 billion years, the equivalent of 20 small kalpas. A great kalpa is 4 medium kalpas, or around 1.28 trillion years.
Maitreya - Wikipedia



If you are talking about thousands Buddhas, They will appear, in a long period of Time. That is quite similar as Bahaullah says. Bahaullah does not say, He is the Last Buddha. He says, in reality there is no Last Manifestation. Always God appears again and again.. In Buddhism terminology this corresponds to thousands and thousands of Buddhas, that will come in every about 1000 years.


But the tradition I was referring is talking about the Next Supreme Buddha, that Buddha said He comes. According to Buddha, He is the Master of Angels and Men. So, obviously He is not a regular human. He is the 'Master' as per Buddha's statement.

I addressed this in specific detail with suttas in the last page and posts with loverofhumanity.

All buddhas are regular men. Buddhism isn't a prophet faith. It just, isn't.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't know how many different ways you and Carlita have said that.

632 times, exactly.

 

[Vinayaka]

So from these scriptures I am convinced that Maitreya has come already.

No Buddhist is convinced.
No Hindu is convinced.
No Christian is convinced.
No Muslim is convinced.

Which part of respecting diversity do you and other Baha'i' not understand? It is simply not fair to redefine someone else's faith.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The Buddha's Dhamma is perfect

Buddha's Dhamma is always true never false.

These are GOA statements. Buddhism is more:

"Monks, a monk who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another's mind, should investigate the Tathagata with respect to two kinds of states, states cognizable through the eye and through the ear cognizable through the eye or through the ear? When he investigates him, he comes to know: No defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathagata..." MN 47 The Inquirer.

GOA believers do not question god to confirm that god is telling the truth about "his" own sacred text.

These are two separate teachings. One is dependant on the practice in the teaching. The other dependant on the authority of the teachings.

If you think the Dhamma is perfect, that is not Dhamma. It is perfect and non perfect at the same time. These words are empty because Dhamma is life.

Dhamma is not eternal. It is eternal and not eternal because the nature of the Dhamma has no dualism. These words are empty because the Dhamma is life. (Life has no labels but we put on it)

The Dhamma can't be true nor can it be false. It just is. That's like if you didn't have the knowledge you have now and see the world for the first time, then you say, "that's false and that's true." Does making that statement make any sense if you did not have someone to give you criteria on what's truth and what's not?

@InvestigateTruth both of you are seeing The Dhamma through GOA Eyes. You can idolize the physical Dhamma, historical buddha, and his one of many promised ones all you want, but that does not change it does not come from god and bahallauh has nothing to do with this.

 

[CG Didymus]

We don't know.. I have read a pilgrims note I will share with you but don't take it as Gospel truth.

This is the content of a Pilgrim's Note - the records of a Pilgrim and therefore carries no official authority but is interesting so I'm sharing it with you...

(the beloved Guardian paused for quite some minutes in his conversation; and then without any preface to his remarks, he made the following statement.)

People wonder what happened to the body of Christ after the crucifixion. It was buried by the disciples under the wall of Jerusalem to protect it from the Roman legions. It remained buried there for some 260 years. (The Guardian gave the exact number of years but afterwards none of the pilgrims could remember precisely the number.) It remained buried under the wall of Jerusalem until the mother of the Emperor Constantine, who had herself become a Christian, came to Jerusalem and had the Church of the Holy Sepulcher built – at which time the body of Christ was removed from under the wall of the city and was placed under the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. And that is where it is today. The Baha’is should be aware of this fact when they visit the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, which is the holiest place in Christendom.

House of Justice's comment on the above Pilgrim's notes..

Concerning the location of the burial site of Jesus' sacred remains, a letter dated 22 March 1982 written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to an individual believer states:

Pilgrims have recorded in their notes oral statements made by 'Abdu'l-Bahá and Shoghi Effendi to the effect that the disciples hid the body of Christ by burying it under the wall of Jerusalem, and that it is now under the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. The House of Justice knows of nothing in the Writings of the Faith, however, explicitly confirming these statements.

They haven't confirmed nor denied it which I found very interesting.

A big part of Jesus qualifying as a "Great Being" is that he rose from the dead. Christians actually make him the Greatest Being, but not if he's dead and buried. That makes Christianity a hoax. So if in the gospel stories the writer claim he rose from the dead and appeared to his followers, when in reality he was buried under a wall, why didn't the Romans and Jews find out about this?

 

[CG Didymus]

I copy Wikipedia:

According to Buddhist tradition, each kalpa has 1,000 Buddhas.[12]


In another simple explanation, there are four different lengths of kalpas. A regular kalpa is approximately 16 million years long (16,798,000 years[5]), and a small kalpa is 1000 regular kalpas, or about 16 billion years. Further, a medium kalpa is roughly 320 billion years, the equivalent of 20 small kalpas. A great kalpa is 4 medium kalpas, or around 1.28 trillion years.
Maitreya - Wikipedia



If you are talking about thousands Buddhas, They will appear, in a long period of Time. That is quite similar as Bahaullah says. Bahaullah does not say, He is the Last Buddha. He says, in reality there is no Last Manifestation. Always God appears again and again.. In Buddhism terminology this corresponds to thousands and thousands of Buddhas, that will come in every about 1000 years.


But the tradition I was referring is talking about the Next Supreme Buddha, that Buddha said He comes. According to Buddha, He is the Master of Angels and Men. So, obviously He is not a regular human. He is the 'Master' as per Buddha's statement.

From your Wikipedia link: "Gautama (the fourth and present Buddha of the bhadrakalpa)
Maitreya will be the fifth Buddha of the bhadrakalpa, and his arrival will occur after the teachings of Gautama Buddha are no longer practiced."

So... Gautama the fourth Buddha and Maitreya the fifth and is supposedly Baha'u'llah. Where is all the other Baha'i manifestations in between them? Plus, when were Buddha's teachings no longer practiced?

 

[CG Didymus]

632 times, exactly.

Hmmm, I new it's been a lot... and still counting.

 

[CG Didymus]

Buddha's Dhamma is always true never false. But over time people change the meaning or interpret it differently so it needs to be restated so another Buddha appears.

Why would the Promised One have to 'teach the same truths I have taught' if they were still being understood and practiced perfectly?

The Buddha mentioned 'Five Disappearances'. Buddha here mentions that in every 1,000 period some aspect or true understanding of the Dhamma would be lost.

The Duration of Gotama Sasana (Dispensation)

The Five Disappearances add up to 5,000 years. But Buddha also said that because women entered into the Samgha, His Dispensation would last half as long, 500 years, so 5 Disappearances x 5 = 2500 which time has passed.

“If, Ānanda, women had not obtained the going forth from home into homelessness in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, the Brahma-faring, Ānanda, would have lasted long, true dhamma would have endured for a thousand years. But since, Ānanda, women have gone forth … in the dhamma and discipline proclaimed by the Truth-finder, now, Ānanda, the Brahma-faring will not last long, true dhamma will endure only for five hundred years”

https://suttacentral.net/files/Book_of_the_Discipline.pdf

So from these scriptures I am convinced that Maitreya has come already.

That first link on Buddhism went into the "Planes of Existence" do you believe those are true?

 

[loverofhumanity]

That first link on Buddhism went into the "Planes of Existence" do you believe those are true?

The link should take you to the duration of the Dispensation of the Buddha. If it took you somewhere else I need to see the text before commenting.

 

[loverofhumanity]

A big part of Jesus qualifying as a "Great Being" is that he rose from the dead. Christians actually make him the Greatest Being, but not if he's dead and buried. That makes Christianity a hoax. So if in the gospel stories the writer claim he rose from the dead and appeared to his followers, when in reality he was buried under a wall, why didn't the Romans and Jews find out about this?

For us, what made Jesus a Great Being is that He was able to transform sinners into saints not any earthly quality.

 

[loverofhumanity]

These are GOA statements. Buddhism is more:

"Monks, a monk who is an inquirer, not knowing how to gauge another's mind, should investigate the Tathagata with respect to two kinds of states, states cognizable through the eye and through the ear cognizable through the eye or through the ear? When he investigates him, he comes to know: No defiled states cognizable through the eye or through the ear are found in the Tathagata..." MN 47 The Inquirer.

GOA believers do not question god to confirm that god is telling the truth about "his" own sacred text.

These are two separate teachings. One is dependant on the practice in the teaching. The other dependant on the authority of the teachings.

If you think the Dhamma is perfect, that is not Dhamma. It is perfect and non perfect at the same time. These words are empty because Dhamma is life.

Dhamma is not eternal. It is eternal and not eternal because the nature of the Dhamma has no dualism. These words are empty because the Dhamma is life. (Life has no labels but we put on it)

The Dhamma can't be true nor can it be false. It just is. That's like if you didn't have the knowledge you have now and see the world for the first time, then you say, "that's false and that's true." Does making that statement make any sense if you did not have someone to give you criteria on what's truth and what's not?

@InvestigateTruth both of you are seeing The Dhamma through GOA Eyes. You can idolize the physical Dhamma, historical buddha, and his one of many promised ones all you want, but that does not change it does not come from god and bahallauh has nothing to do with this.

Yes that's correct. One must first have the criteria of what is right or wrong, true or false with which to weigh anything.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No Buddhist is convinced.
No Hindu is convinced.
No Christian is convinced.
No Muslim is convinced.

Which part of respecting diversity do you and other Baha'i' not understand? It is simply not fair to redefine someone else's faith.

We just have a different Faith with different beliefs that's all.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes that's correct. One must first have the criteria of what is right or wrong, true or false with which to weigh anything.

.....

.....As a result, Lover, GOA statements are not compatible with Dharmic religions. This is very clean proof you are looking at this through Bahai eyes not a Buddhist.

In a Buddhist perspective, the criteria does not come from the Dhamma. The Dhamma isn't an authority like GOA scripture is to their believers.

True Dhamma is the practice. The written Dhamma means nothing.

If you didn't have any of the prophet's teachings at all what would be your criteria of right and wrong?

(Buddhist and Hindu know. But do you?) Seriously, do you?

 

[loverofhumanity]

@loverofhumanity

The Buddha, Maitreya, devas, and gods do not need to exist for the Dhamma to exist. The Dhamma exist independent of any of the people in the suttas and sutras.

Once you cause a dependency on someone and/or something, you are not longer talking about the Dhamma. That is false Dhamma. What The Buddha talked against.

The nature of GOA religions makes their interpretation of any Dharmic religion a false Dhamma. Has nothing to do with morals. Just what the religions teach and do not teach.

So you're saying Buddhism would still exist if Buddha never appeared? If Buddhists really believe that to be true then why don't they exclude the name Buddha and all Buddhist texts from their 'Dhamma'?

 

[loverofhumanity]

.....

.....As a result, Lover, GOA statements are not compatible with Dharmic religions. This is very clean proof you are looking at this through Bahai eyes not a Buddhist.

In a Buddhist perspective, the criteria does not come from the Dhamma. The Dhamma isn't an authority like GOA scripture is to their believers.

True Dhamma is the practice. The written Dhamma means nothing.

If you didn't have any of the prophet's teachings at all what would be your criteria of right and wrong?

(Buddhist and Hindu know. But do you?) Seriously, do you?

You may have that view. I differ and maintain that a criteria or standard is required. Theory and practice should go hand in hand.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

So you're saying Buddhism would still exist if Buddha never appeared? If Buddhists really believe that to be true then why don't they exclude the name Buddha and all Buddhist texts from their 'Dhamma'?

Short answer:

a. Yes.

b. Some lineages do others do not. It depends on the school. Like the Krishna thing, one school or sutta doesn't speak for everyone else. Nichiren and Vietnamese Buddhist here can't speak for Burmese Buddhist there. and so forth.

Long answer: Please, in some fashion or form, mention a point or two, tell me your position on that point, and then comment or ask a question. I have long posts so isolated questions and comments confuse me.

-Long Answer-

a.

The Dhamma is the practice and action of love and kindness (to make it as simple as possible). The Buddha did not give new knowledge. He was awakened to knowledge that was already inherent in life. Love and kindness existed regardless of what religion a person practiced. Buddhism isn't about abstract world peace and love and kindness. It's about training the mind in specific practices and services to see one's own Buddha nature in the Mahayana view or see themselves unto enlightenment in the theravada view.

All Buddhas, buddhists, and bodhisattvas, etc go back to these points:

1. There is suffering
2. There a cause to suffering
3. There is an end to suffering
4. Here are ways to end it.

All of these exist even before The Buddha ever appeared on scene. Again, you are stuck on written words as authority. Dharmic religions are not like that.

I mean, I like reading. I read a good chunk of these suttas, but kinda dwindled off on A-2. This is good for knowledge of The suttas (rather than sutras) we quoted were mostly for monks. If you read The Collection of the Buddha's Suttas you'll notice that this thread is not even one percent of all of what The Buddha taught.

I mean, the sutta can say All Dogs go to Heaven and suffering would still exist as well as love and kindness. You put too much into what's written rather than what's done.

b.

It depends on the lineage. Nichiren Buddhist don't even refer to The Buddha at all. It's all practice. One of my peers called me earlier to invite me to a Gongyo meetings and once a month, they do full district (multiple town) meetings at different grade schools where children can learn about world peace through one of many mediums.

When I practiced Zen, we gave reference to The Buddha, then zazen, in some centered they do walking zazen. The monastery I would like to go to is theravada so it's full meditation and practice with the monks. A lot more than going to a temple.



The Buddha is not like god or jesus or muhammad.
The Suttas is not like the bible or quran.

The foundation for The Buddha's teachings is you no one else.

"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and is for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of the mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end." ~MN 29 Mahasaropama Sutta I 192-97

The goal is not gain, honor, knowledge, moral discipline, and concentration. The goal isn't loving kindness.

The goal is liberation of the mind. When you practice the Dhamma, you gain liberation of the mind. When you do that, you, without knowing it, display love and kindness.

This is an action not based on what you read.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You may have that view. I differ and maintain that a criteria or standard is required. Theory and practice should go hand in hand.

That is why Dharmic religions don't go with GOA religions. It's harder to show in Buddhism because Buddhism doesn't teach there is a god. However, Hinduism is also a Dharmic faith. If you understand the differences between Hinduism and Bahaism, that's pretty much the same as Buddhism since they both depend on practice and tradition as part of their love and kindness.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Short answer:

a. Yes.

b. Some lineages do others do not. It depends on the school. Like the Krishna thing, one school or sutta doesn't speak for everyone else. Nichiren and Vietnamese Buddhist here can't speak for Burmese Buddhist there. and so forth.

Long answer: Please, in some fashion or form, mention a point or two, tell me your position on that point, and then comment or ask a question. I have long posts so isolated questions and comments confuse me.

-Long Answer-

a.

The Dhamma is the practice and action of love and kindness (to make it as simple as possible). The Buddha did not give new knowledge. He was awakened to knowledge that was already inherent in life. Love and kindness existed regardless of what religion a person practiced. Buddhism isn't about abstract world peace and love and kindness. It's about training the mind in specific practices and services to see one's own Buddha nature in the Mahayana view or see themselves unto enlightenment in the theravada view.

All Buddhas, buddhists, and bodhisattvas, etc go back to these points:

1. There is suffering
2. There a cause to suffering
3. There is an end to suffering
4. Here are ways to end it.

All of these exist even before The Buddha ever appeared on scene. Again, you are stuck on written words as authority. Dharmic religions are not like that.

I mean, I like reading. I read a good chunk of these suttas, but kinda dwindled off on A-2. This is good for knowledge of The suttas (rather than sutras) we quoted were mostly for monks. If you read The Collection of the Buddha's Suttas you'll notice that this thread is not even one percent of all of what The Buddha taught.

I mean, the sutta can say All Dogs go to Heaven and suffering would still exist as well as love and kindness. You put too much into what's written rather than what's done.

b.

It depends on the lineage. Nichiren Buddhist don't even refer to The Buddha at all. It's all practice. One of my peers called me earlier to invite me to a Gongyo meetings and once a month, they do full district (multiple town) meetings at different grade schools where children can learn about world peace through one of many mediums.

When I practiced Zen, we gave reference to The Buddha, then zazen, in some centered they do walking zazen. The monastery I would like to go to is theravada so it's full meditation and practice with the monks. A lot more than going to a temple.



The Buddha is not like god or jesus or muhammad.
The Suttas is not like the bible or quran.

The foundation for The Buddha's teachings is you no one else.

"So this spiritual life, monks, does not have gain, honor, and renown for its benefit, or the attainment of moral discipline for its benefit, or the attainment of concentration for its benefit, or knowledge and is for its benefit. But it is this unshakable liberation of the mind that is the goal of this spiritual life, its heartwood, and its end." ~MN 29 Mahasaropama Sutta I 192-97

The goal is not gain, honor, knowledge, moral discipline, and concentration. The goal isn't loving kindness.

The goal is liberation of the mind. When you practice the Dhamma, you gain liberation of the mind. When you do that, you, without knowing it, display love and kindness.

This is an action not based on what you read.

I can say that I fully agree that all good actions are what is most needed for our world no matter which people practice them. Good deeds are the essence of true religion and religion should never be just about words only. Words don't achieve anything unless out into practice.

Although we have Teachings we are told that the Teachings and deeds go hand in hand. Our prime mission is twofold - to create a world spiritual civilisation and to create a new race of men incomparable in character that is renowned for spiritual distinction.