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Is religion logical

Muffled

Jesus in me
Infant baptisms might be a tiny little example. But I was thinking of the big ones, like "Believe what I tell you about God and you will go to Paradise even if your ethical standards aren't all that great".
That sort of thing.
Tom

I believe that isn't logical.

God hates sin.
God seeks to remove sin from people's lives.
God sent a Savior to eliminate sin.
Conclusion The person who makes Jesus his savior eliminates sin and pleases God.

That is how logic works.

One does not get into paradise unless sin is removed.
The person who has Jesus as Savior gets into Paradise.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I believe that isn't logical.

I agree it is not logical. But it is a very common argument.
In fact, it is exactly what you claimed in the rest of your post:
God hates sin.
God seeks to remove sin from people's lives.
God sent a Savior to eliminate sin.
Conclusion The person who makes Jesus his savior eliminates sin and pleases God.

That is how logic works.

One does not get into paradise unless sin is removed.
The person who has Jesus as Savior gets into Paradise.
Right there, you did the same thing. You made claims that aren't supported and drew the conclusion that I would go to Paradise if I believe you.
Tom
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
This makes absolutely no sense at all. An intelligence that conceives of a universe (holds a model of it in its mind) must be at least as complicated (intricate) as the universe.

Even if that weren't the case - it doesn't fundamentally alter the point: either you have an unexplained universe or an unexplained intelligence and a universe.

There seems to be a mental block with theists - they are so keen to point out how it doesn't make sense to think the universe just happens to exist, but when it comes to their preferred god, it's suddenly OK for that to just exist. It's stunning double standards.

I believe it is like the old chicken and egg problem. Eggs don't come into being. Chickens have to lay eggs. All one needs is a chicken that can lay eggs. Across the board replication takes place as a design to replace chickens that die.

I believe what intelligent design says is that if one has a designer it explains why all things have a design. a design can't explain itself anymore than an egg can exist without the chicken.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
In the old days religion may have played a role in bringing certain tribes or communities together. Today religion divides people with in group/out group thinking. Having been on both sides of the fence, I would say that religion is not logical at all. It deals with the imaginary and characters that no one has ever seen. Instead of bringing people together, it drives them apart. Religion seeks to enslave the human psychologically as well as put a barrier on self expression and educating oneself. There a hundreds of millions, and from what I have been told almost a billion people on this planet that are not religious at all in any sense of the word, yet they live happy, peaceful and fulfilling lives. This shows that religion is not only illogical, but can be shown to be done away with completely without any fallout of one's own happiness and productivity in the world. -peace

I believe this premise is incorrect. I believe the number of religious people far outnumbers the non-religious. I also believe there is no study linking non-religion to peaceful and fulfilling lives. I believe it can happen but how much is latent religion involved? By latent religion I mean that the values are taught and accepted without the person realizing those values come from religion.

I believe the conclusion is false because the premise is false.

Lets take permissive sex as an example. In the past when sex outside of marriage was rare most families were intact with two parents. Today with permissiveness there has been a large number of women getting pregnant and having the children without the benefit of a husband or father for the children.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I agree it is not logical. But it is a very common argument.
In fact, it is exactly what you claimed in the rest of your post:

Right there, you did the same thing. You made claims that aren't supported and drew the conclusion that I would go to Paradise if I believe you.
Tom

I believe the claims are supported by the Bible and since you were referring to sin and paradise the only support for those concepts comes from the Bible and to some extent other scriptures as well.

I believe you are pretending I made all this up for you to believe but that is not the case. I believe you will go to Paradise if you believe what God says about it.
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
I believe the claims are supported by the Bible and since you were referring to sin and paradise the only support for those concepts comes from the Bible and to some extent other scriptures as well.
You believe that the Bible is an authority on the subject. More precisely that you are an authority on what it means and it is an authority on God.
I see no reason to believe any of that. I consider the Bible an ancient docudrama created by primitive human beings. One that contains many illogical and unsupported claims. Basing your assertions on your interpretation of that doesn't give me any reason to accept your authority to speak for God.
Tom
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I believe that isn't logical.

God hates sin.
God seeks to remove sin from people's lives.
God sent a Savior to eliminate sin.
Conclusion The person who makes Jesus his savior eliminates sin and pleases God.

That is how logic works.

One does not get into paradise unless sin is removed.
The person who has Jesus as Savior gets into Paradise.
Agree, provided you are not implying that "sinlessness" in thought mind and deed can be achieved by a depraved human. Sanctificaton certainly occurs, but if it led to sinlessness, the cross would only be an insurance policy. Being perfect and sinless is required, but it is yours by faith in him and acceptance, not by becoming a perfect, sinless human. There have been only 3, and two fell from Grace, there will be no more till the world begins anew.
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
God hates sin.
God seeks to remove sin from people's lives.
God sent a Savior to eliminate sin.
Conclusion The person who makes Jesus his savior eliminates sin and pleases God.

That is how logic works.

One does not get into paradise unless sin is removed.
The person who has Jesus as Savior gets into Paradise.
If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then this is only logical if you assume god is also perverse, unfair or uncaring (in some combination).
  • An omnipotent, omniscient god would be responsible for everything including sin.
  • An omnipotent god could remove sin in an instant.
  • If sinning was a genuine choice for humans, there wouldn't be 100% failure rate and at least some of us wouldn't need a saviour.
  • Substitute punishment is unjust.
  • The criterion for being 'saved' and going to Paradise seems to be believing this bizarre tale without a shred of evidence or logical reasoning - which is perverse and unjust.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
If god is omnipotent and omniscient, then this is only logical if you assume god is also perverse, unfair or uncaring (in some combination).
  • An omnipotent, omniscient god would be responsible for everything including sin.
  • An omnipotent god could remove sin in an instant.
  • If sinning was a genuine choice for humans, there wouldn't be 100% failure rate and at least some of us wouldn't need a saviour.
  • Substitute punishment is unjust.
  • The criterion for being 'saved' and going to Paradise seems to be believing this bizarre tale without a shred of evidence or logical reasoning - which is perverse and unjust.
Your first point is correct, however, God doesn't know what hasn;t occurred. God's purpose isn't to "remove" sin, it is for humanity to return to a proper faith, by use of free will. It is further to demonstrate fully the tragedy of free will exercised improperly. Sin is a human choice, based upon the desire to arrogantly be ruled by a series of rules and laws, and then the cumulative effects of the the constant failure of this choice. You use the term "logical", .i.e. logic. As I have pointed out elsewhere, by the laws of logic Christianity is proven to be logical. Perhaps you need to refresh your knowledge of what logic actually is, s well as what justice is.,
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Your first point is correct, however, God doesn't know what hasn;t occurred.
So not omniscient, then?

God's purpose isn't to "remove" sin...
So what did you mean when you said "God seeks to remove sin from people's lives"?

...it is for humanity to return to a proper faith, by use of free will.
Free will from the point of view of an omniscient, omnipotent creator is clear nonsense - such a creator would effectively control all our nature and all our nurture.

Sin is a human choice..
So why the 100% failure?

...based upon the desire to arrogantly be ruled by a series of rules and laws, and then the cumulative effects of the the constant failure of this choice.
No idea what you mean by this.

You use the term "logical", .i.e. logic. As I have pointed out elsewhere, by the laws of logic Christianity is proven to be logical.
Christianity logical? In what way? Where is this proof?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
So not omniscient, then?


So what did you mean when you said "God seeks to remove sin from people's lives"?


Free will from the point of view of an omniscient, omnipotent creator is clear nonsense - such a creator would effectively control all our nature and all our nurture.


So why the 100% failure?


No idea what you mean by this.


Christianity logical? In what way? Where is this proof?
No, God isn't omniscient, but he is perfectly prepared to deal with any possibility. Well, I didn't say that God seeks to remove sin from peoples lives, but he does. Not by fiat, but by an established relationship with him, freely entered into. There is no failure. Failure means your goals weren't achieved, Gods goals will all be achieved. So, you believe that free will given to the created by the creator is nonsense ? Are you a parent ? Does a parent allowing free will on the part of the child, first within parameters, then totally any different ? There are a series of fundamental laws to follow in applying logic, that have been known since ancient Greece. There is a process using these rules to determine what is logical. Logic has been corrupted to mean " if I don't like it, or if I disagree, it isn't logical". Applying these laws to Christianity ALWAYS proves it to be logical. I am sure there is plenty of info about logic on the net. Or, you could simply find a proper word to express your disdain. As an aside, I find it amusing that on a site called "religious forums", atheists infest it. Not that I think it's wrong, I am happy to engage anyone. Nevertheless, I can't help but wonder wonder why "they protesteth too much"
 

Cephus

Relentlessly Rational
I believe that isn't logical.

God hates sin.
God seeks to remove sin from people's lives.
God sent a Savior to eliminate sin.
Conclusion The person who makes Jesus his savior eliminates sin and pleases God.

That is how logic works.

One does not get into paradise unless sin is removed.
The person who has Jesus as Savior gets into Paradise.

Except Jesus didn't "eliminate sin" because you can still sin today. If Jesus eliminated sin, there would be no need to ask for forgiveness because sin wouldn't exist anymore.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
That's the question, isn't it ? It certainly is virtually impossible by random natural processes. However, if the organism was designed and created with the information in place, the question is answered.To me. there appears only two options, either believe the unproven impossible, or see the evidence of an intelligent design. That is what the evidence points to, no matter how impossible the conclusion seems.
So where is the information before the organism exists?
 

siti

Well-Known Member
In Gods mind
OK - so where is God's mind? Is it part of physical reality or part of an unchangeable immaterial non-reality? If it is outside of reality, how does it get in? At what precise moment does, for example, the information that describes the reality of a bacterium that just split off a parent get transferred from God's mind to the new organism? How does this immaterial information become encoded in the new organism's DNA?
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
OK - so where is God's mind? Is it part of physical reality or part of an unchangeable immaterial non-reality? If it is outside of reality, how does it get in? At what precise moment does, for example, the information that describes the reality of a bacterium that just split off a parent get transferred from God's mind to the new organism? How does this immaterial information become encoded in the new organism's DNA?
You asked about the information required for the alleged very first organism to exist and function. The information for all organism's is the result of replicating DNA, from one generation to the next. The very existence of this DNA and it's replication, is the result of encoded information in the DNA of the parent organism. A very, very complicated system that does what is required elegantly. A system, I believe, that was designed and created by it's designer. IF that very first organism didn't have the required information to grow and function, according to the natural concept of the beginning of life, then no life would be possible. Which still begs the question, where did that complicated, encoded, huge amount of information come from ? I am pretty darn sure, in fact, I am positive that no one who asserts a naturalistic explanation for life can answer the question. To answer your reality questions I will use the old analogy of a mechanical watch. The watchmaker designs and builds it, then winds it every couple of days. All the natural functioning systems in the universe, replicating DNA to volcanic action to the universe was designed and built to function by the "winding" of God. All the energy that turned into matter, that turned into stars and light, that powers the universe, is the winding. So the material reality that we know and experience by our senses exists, but there are other realities that are totally unknown to us, that exist in the same space as we. Paul called them in the Bible "powers, principalities and kingdoms unseen"
 

siti

Well-Known Member
You asked about the information required for the alleged very first organism to exist and function. The information for all organism's is the result of replicating DNA, from one generation to the next. The very existence of this DNA and it's replication, is the result of encoded information in the DNA of the parent organism. A very, very complicated system that does what is required elegantly. A system, I believe, that was designed and created by it's designer. IF that very first organism didn't have the required information to grow and function, according to the natural concept of the beginning of life, then no life would be possible. Which still begs the question, where did that complicated, encoded, huge amount of information come from ? I am pretty darn sure, in fact, I am positive that no one who asserts a naturalistic explanation for life can answer the question. To answer your reality questions I will use the old analogy of a mechanical watch. The watchmaker designs and builds it, then winds it every couple of days. All the natural functioning systems in the universe, replicating DNA to volcanic action to the universe was designed and built to function by the "winding" of God. All the energy that turned into matter, that turned into stars and light, that powers the universe, is the winding. So the material reality that we know and experience by our senses exists, but there are other realities that are totally unknown to us, that exist in the same space as we. Paul called them in the Bible "powers, principalities and kingdoms unseen"
That's a very Newtonian position.

"For while comets move in very eccentric orbs in all manner of positions, blind fate could never make all the planets move one and the same way in orbs concentric, some inconsiderable irregularities excepted which may have arisen from the mutual actions of comets and planets on one another, and which will be apt to increase, till this system wants a reformation." ~ Isaac Newton, Opticks (2nd edition)

To which the more deistically-inclined Leibniz responded:

"Sir Isaac Newton and his followers have also a very odd opinion concerning the work of God. According to their doctrine, God Almighty wants to wind up his watch from time to time: otherwise it would cease to move. He had not, it seems, sufficient foresight to make it a perpetual motion." ~ Leibniz, in a letter to Caroline of Ansbach

Or, we might add, sufficient foresight to make the evolution of the various biological species emerge from the process that emanated from His supreme intelligence without his having to continually tinker with it. It makes God seem more like a slightly unhinged and hopelessly misguided (given the outcome so far) inventor - more like a hapless Dr Frankenstein than an omniscient Divine Creator. Not a tremendously convincing argument for the logic of religious belief.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I am starting out on a general basis. Certainly one may argue about certain elements as to how logical they are but I am looking for whether it makes any sense for any kind of religious activity to exist.

My beginning argument for it being logical is that religion is like tradition. A person fiinds something that works so it becomes something worth repeating.

Fod instance the chant of "om" is believed to work as a way to enter into meditation.
belief is logical...after you drop the dogma
but having dropped the dogma....you don't have religion
just belief
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
That's a very Newtonian position.

"For while comets move in very eccentric orbs in all manner of positions, blind fate could never make all the planets move one and the same way in orbs concentric, some inconsiderable irregularities excepted which may have arisen from the mutual actions of comets and planets on one another, and which will be apt to increase, till this system wants a reformation." ~ Isaac Newton, Opticks (2nd edition)

To which the more deistically-inclined Leibniz responded:

"Sir Isaac Newton and his followers have also a very odd opinion concerning the work of God. According to their doctrine, God Almighty wants to wind up his watch from time to time: otherwise it would cease to move. He had not, it seems, sufficient foresight to make it a perpetual motion." ~ Leibniz, in a letter to Caroline of Ansbach

Or, we might add, sufficient foresight to make the evolution of the various biological species emerge from the process that emanated from His supreme intelligence without his having to continually tinker with it. It makes God seem more like a slightly unhinged and hopelessly misguided (given the outcome so far) inventor - more like a hapless Dr Frankenstein than an omniscient Divine Creator. Not a tremendously convincing argument for the logic of religious belief.
He doesn't have to tinker with it, further, using the analogy, I said he wound it one time, at the beginning when all the energy and potential for energy burst forth at the BB, which he caused. As to evolution, I am an evolutionist in that I believe animals organisms can adapt to environmental circumstances in a limited fashion. However, the idea that chance mutations leads to the neat bogus chart we were shown in school of that magical first organism ultimately becoming a whale is way way from proven, in fact it has a plethora of serious flaws, but, that's another conversation. If you would reread my post, you would find that I don't agree with Newton at all.
 

siti

Well-Known Member
He doesn't have to tinker with it, further, using the analogy, I said he wound it one time, at the beginning when all the energy and potential for energy burst forth at the BB, which he caused. As to evolution, I am an evolutionist in that I believe animals organisms can adapt to environmental circumstances in a limited fashion. However, the idea that chance mutations leads to the neat bogus chart we were shown in school of that magical first organism ultimately becoming a whale is way way from proven, in fact it has a plethora of serious flaws, but, that's another conversation. If you would reread my post, you would find that I don't agree with Newton at all.
My apologies, I took the "winds it every couple of days" as part of your analogy of God's work in relation to the universe. But if you meant he just wound it up once and then watched it go, then that's equivalent to a deistic view of creation. I'm wondering though how you can doubt the evolutionary origin of species and yet hold that God does not intervene, at least occasionally. Presumably you accept that different species have appeared on earth at different times.
 
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