Do Jehovah's Witnesses Deserve to Benefit From the Freedoms Others Have Paid For?

[Valjean]

OK. The military is an immoral organization. Is that even when it is used to DEFEND human rights?

I'll concede that there could be situations where military intervention might serve the greater good, but these are very rare, and almost invariably the result of some other military behaving badly.
The goal should be the general elimination of offensive military capacity.

Didn't we create an organization in 1945 expressly to prevent war and enforce peace?

 

[savagewind]

I'll concede that there could be situations where military intervention might serve the greater good, but these are very rare, and almost invariably the result of some other military behaving badly.
The goal should be the general elimination of offensive military capacity.

Didn't we create an organization in 1945 expressly to prevent war and enforce peace?

Enforcing peace is war.
The goal is to eliminate evil. Any plan for that?

I think that to not participate in evil is not enough. So? What's the PLAN?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

No we are not. We're suppose to be debating whether or not it's ethical to benefit from the sacrifices made by others one's behalf when one refuses to do the same for them?
Source: OP

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Then saying 'thats just the way the laws are, deal with it,' doesn't add to the discussion.

Sacrifice isn't limited to sacrifices in the military, there are other ways to aid ones community/country that should be no more or no less valued. Re: able bodied people shouldn't be required to volunteer for firefighting to reap benefits from society.
Further, arguably the American military is not benefiting me, as an American, in my lifetime with the conflicts during that time. Arguably the conflicts and defense spending has even made American life worse.

 

[Valjean]

Enforcing peace is war.
The goal is to eliminate evil. Any plan for that?

I think that to not participate in evil is not enough. So? What's the PLAN?

No-one's saying there's an easy solution, but if there were only one organization on the planet with a significant offensive capacity, ie: the UN, wouldn't wars amount to little more than regional police actions? Wouldn't frustrated demagogues have to abandon their imperial ambitions and apply themselves to the welfare of their people?

 

[Valjean]

Then saying 'thats just the way the laws are, deal with it,' doesn't add to the discussion.

Sacrifice isn't limited to sacrifices in the military, there are other ways to aid ones community/country that should be no more or no less valued. Re: able bodied people shouldn't be required to volunteer for firefighting to reap benefits from society.
Further, arguably the American military is not benefiting me, as an American, in my lifetime with the conflicts during that time. Arguably the conflicts and defense spending has even made American life worse.

We can't afford to maintain our infrastructure, educate or provide health care for our people, but we spare no expense in funding our military, which, oddly enough, creates the very enemies it purports to be protecting us from.

 

[savagewind]

No-one's saying there's an easy solution, but if there were only one organization on the planet with a significant offensive capacity,

That is what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach will happen. I don't believe it.
I think you are saying that all the nations together should steal each nation's arsenal for themselves together? That is not a good plan, imo.

 

[savagewind]

I think to start, the fear of being attacked should be addressed. Maybe nations need therapy.

Instead of a peace group (the UN) it should be a therapy group.

 

[Valjean]

That is what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach will happen. I don't believe it.
I think you are saying that all the nations together should steal each nation's arsenal for themselves together? That is not a good plan, imo.

So the alternative is... Gort?
Gort (The Day the Earth Stood Still) - Wikipedia

 

[Valjean]

I think to start, the fear of being attacked should be addressed. Maybe nations need therapy.

Instead of a peace group (the UN) it should be a therapy group.

Maybe if the forth estate would cease echoing fear-mongers and lauding the military, and turn its attention to the Military-Industrial Complex and Corporate interests behind the Empire, the people would be a bit more critical of our military adventurism.

 

[savagewind]

There is a belief some people have that we make our own reality. Why not test it?
Let's pretend there are no more evils to desire. Let's make love the only desire.

 

[Valjean]

There's a song about that, I think.

 

[Conceivia]

<snip>
My question, put as simply as I can: Is it ethical to benefit from the sacrifices of others on your behalf when one refuses to do the same for them?

You are assuming there is benefits from war. In fact, others do not see this. The military has through out history been used to make certain people money or give certain people power. It all comes down to a question of faith. Where does a person put his or her faith.

When it comes to who can make change, solve the problems of mankind, who do the people look to for change? They look to the politicians, to the rich, to the powerful. This means that the people put their faith in money and power.

This means that money and power is our god. We worship money and power and the military. We believe the military will protect us. We believe that mutually assured destruction will protect us.

Not everyone believes in this. I believe mutually assured destruction will kill us all, unless we an break free of that line of thinking/worship.

I believe that when we put the government in control of our morality, deciding who we should kill, than we no longer have a government worth fighting for. At that point we have lost the most important freedom of all, which is the freedom to do the right thing.

Do we put the government above God? When God tells us not to kill, and the government tells us to kill, who do we listen to?

I do not agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses stance. God does command people to fight war, but God does not allow the government to make the decision for you. That decision does not belong to the government.

None the less, it is good to see a religion at least trying to protect the rights of the people to follow God. I believe the World Peace Church will do a much better job of this though.

God's plan is to eliminate war all together. Not through the governments, but rather by getting the people to be more powerful than the governments. My eliminating poverty, and all other ways that the powers that be enslave us.

Here's a video that shows the basics of how God plans to do that:

 

[Conceivia]

One more thing I'll add.

When a person joins the military on his own free will, he may be misguided, but at least he is trying to do a good thing. Right or wrong, I could see God looking kindly on this person, as having a good heart.

When a person is forced to join the military, he is showing God and us, that he is more willing to kill other people than he is willing suffer a little himself to save the lives of other people. This, I see as a bad person. Is your freedom, as in avoiding jail, worth more than other man's life? Does this not show a bad person?

The Bible speaks of God cursing the whole nation of Israel for this act. For forcing its men to fight, against God's law. 1 Chronicles 21 tells one example.

 

[Valjean]

One more thing I'll add.
When a person joins the military on his own free will, he may be misguided, but at least he is trying to do a good thing. Right or wrong, I could see God looking kindly on this person, as having a good heart.

When a person joins the military is he not abdicating his moral agency? Is he not ceding moral agency to another?

Is it actually possible to abdicate moral responsibility? Aren't we all individually responsible for our actions? When we stand before our maker, is "I was just following orders" going to cut it?
According to the Christians, there's only one person with the ability to take another's sins upon Himself -- and He died two thousand years ago.

I doubt God would look kindly on a person abdicating moral responsibility. I doubt He'd be down with someone willing to kill perfect strangers on orders from another; who thinks he won't be held to account.
Abdicate moral responsibility and you abdicate your humanity, you become just another animal.

 

[LuisDantas]

Enforcing peace is war.

That is precious. I feel almost tempted to ask what enforcing virginity would be like.

 

[capumetu]

What part of 2 Cor 10:3,4 don't you get? Know this true Christians do not fight 2 Tim 2:24

capumetu @yours.com

 

[Prestor John]

Consider

"Jehovah's Witnesses are an international association of Christians who have been confronted with the issue of compulsory military service in many lands.

In the past, the Congress of the United States has provided exemption to registrants who entertain sincerely-held, religious objections to military service. Jehovah's Witnesses are conscientiously opposed to war and to their participation in such in any form whatsoever. For this reason they inform officials of the government that they conscientiously object to serving in the military, or in any civilian capacity which fosters or supports the military. Moreover, they are willing to accept the consequences of their Bible-based, conscientious position."
source

"The Watchtower Files
A Blog For Jehovah's Witnesses And Those Who Love Them"
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"It is a well known fact to those who are familiar with Jehovah’s Witnesses that they forbid military service. They even forbid non-combat military service which has been a suitable alternative to conscientious objectors for many decades in this country. While they can’t actually disfellowship someone for joining the military the Watchtower can and does disassociate them and treats them as if they were disfellowshipped. Apparently the illegality of discriminating against someone who chooses to serve their country in military service directly affects what the Watchtower will and won’t do to their members."
source

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Yearbook 1991 p. 166
…attempts have been made (in Sweden) to have us substitute compulsory work for military service. In the early 1970's, a governmental committee was appointed to review the handling of conscientious objectors. For the sake of uniformity, the authorities wanted Jehovah's Witnesses to serve on terms similar to those for other religious groups and do compulsory work as a substitute.

Representatives of the branch office appeared before the committee, explaining that the Witnesses could not accept any substitute for military service whatsoever, no matter how praiseworthy the task.
source​

My question, put as simply as I can: Is it ethical to benefit from the sacrifices of others on your behalf when one refuses to do the same for them?

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Please note that this is not presented to make fun of Jehovah's Witnesses, but a look at the position they've chosen to take and its ethics.

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If they are a citizen of that country, they are entitled to all the benefits of that citizenship.

Choosing which citizens are "worthy" of their rights will definitely lead to a slippery slope.

 

[newone]

JWs paid taxes during WW2. Where do you think their taxes went?

They supported the war effort whether they knew it or not simply by paying income and sales taxes (not every state had sales tax at that point, but the vast majority did), and even money paid to companies that did any work at all with the US government during that time.

It isn't so easy to avoid contributing to an active war no matter what you do.

We are aware that our taxes may go to fund wars. God does not hold us accountable for how our taxes are used....He simply expects us to pay our taxes....

 

[newone]

I have heard that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses own stock in companies
that make parts for war and companies which invest in other things that the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses forbid their people to do, like smoking.

The fact that you heard it doesn't necessarily make it true....does it??
I have been told many stories about the JW's, even shown evidence, after some research i found that it was fabricated lies.

 

[newone]

Because, like it or not, that's what countries do. Want to reside in country X, then you'll be obligated to live by its laws. No turn on red, pay an income tax, and serve in the military if it so determines. Don't like it? Then leave or suffer the consequences. Simple as that.

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I am curious, does your govt require everybody to do military service??