Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[Shak34]

I agree with that, but where can an average Joe get a NWT? they are not available to the public as every Bible you mentioned above is. One has to be a member of their click to get one. Even in their street ministry, they do not hand out their Bible, only their publications. Members of the watchtower rewrote the Bible and it is only for them. That tells me that, they don't want anyone reading it without their teachings. Why would that be, unless they are hiding something?

They have an app that can be downloaded that has the NWT bible in it. It can also be found on their website. It is not like they are hiding it from anyone. I'm sure a person would only have to ask to get one in book form if they wanted it that way.

 

[james2ko]

Yes, and it is also interesting the way she glosses over the fact the JDubs, in their zeal to distort the Trinity, . Oh, well, our team broke a rule here, but that's OK, as every rule has its exception. Yes, but who says this is the exception? And how convenient it is this somehow proves to be some sort of exception that allows the JDubs to bludgeon Scripture into some how supporting their take on the Trinity.

I am not, nor was I ever a JW or even studied with them. I do not agree with their self-righteous, Pharisaical condemnation of everyone who does not subscribe to their beliefs. When it comes to doctrine, though, I try not to commit the fallacy of guilt by association nor honor by association.

I research every doctrine to the best of my ability, checking bias at the door, and come up with my own conclusion, as we are commanded to do (1 Thessalonians 5:21). Sometimes the conclusion is orthodox, sometimes it is not.

I do believe scripture indicates the pre-incarnate Christ was a created entity. Thus supporting the indefinite article in the JW rendering of Joh 1:1. I believe the glorified Christ was functionally, as opposed to ontologically, equal to the Father.

deliberately mistranslated the prologue to John

They can say the same thing about the orthodoxy's insertion of the indefinite article in verses that are grammatically similar to John 1:1, yet failed to do so in John's prologue. Interestingly, translators that insist on rendering John 1:1, “The Word was God,” do not hesitate to use the indefinite article (a, an) in their rendering of other passages where a singular anarthrous predicate noun occurs before the verb.

Thus at John 6:70, The Jerusalem Bible and King James both refer to Judas Iscariot as “a devil,” and at John 9:17 they describe Jesus as “a prophet.” Why not at John 1:1? One can see why the JW's can also claim a mistranslation of John 1:1

 

[savagewind]

I don't follow you when you say it's not black and white as I think. What are you referring to?

YOU say the Bible says Make, and I say it doesn't. But I agree with you that a disciple's fine conduct becomes an advertisement for God's Kingdom and someone will know who else is of Jesus Christ. By a person's conduct and by preaching others are drawn to Christ also. Conduct and preaching is called discipleship. That is what he telling us to do. Not make. There is ONE creator or Maker.
Where else in scripture shows reason to believe anyone else is creator or maker?

An advertisement does not make a sale. Money does.

 

[savagewind]

Oops. I t should read all believers have not "has." That is the only thing I would care to change.

That is amazing to me that you would confess that.

 

[ashkat1`]

I can't imagine where I got that idea......was that three gods ?....or three faces on one god?

You do understand that this is where your trinity came from, don't you? The idea wasn't original though...you knew that too...right?




A quick Google search and the "propaganda" just popped up.


Here are some pagan trinities......do you think they look familiar?

But I guess you don't see a connection at all, do you?



That is impossible because there is no trinity doctrine in the Bible. The trinity doctrine is Catholic, not Christian.....can you not discern the difference? Roman Catholicism is a product of men, not God. When the blood started to flow, Christ left the building. (Isaiah 1:15)

The Jews have no trinity....and Jesus was Jewish, not Catholic. Out of the three Abrahamic faiths, no one has a trinity except Christendom. If Abraham could be described as "God's friend" (James 2:23; Isaiah 41:8) and he didn't believe that his God was three, don't you think it was horribly remiss of God to keep such a vital truth to himself for thousands of years?

Now...did I make this up? Not one of those images is from any JW publication.

Look, in the first place, since you so insist that you are not a professing Christian, then you have absolutely no business interpreting or representing our faith for us. You are qualified only to speak for yourself, not us. You should mind your own business, stick to speaking about what you believe, and let us speak for ourselves. All you are doing here is creating all sorts of serious misconceptions about the Trinity. Almost all those images are from other religions and therefore are irrelevant. So why did you bother with them? A couple of Christian origin represent an artists' renderings of the Trinity, not the major creedal Trinitarian affirmations, which is specifically what I am referring to. The granddaddy of them all, the Nicene Creed, starts off by saying, "We believe in one God..." So there is no claim here for three gods or three gods stuck in one head, or even heads. The Second Helvetic Confession, Chapter III, Of God, His Unity and Trinity," opens by stating, "God is One." In addressing the triuneness of God, the confession states clearly ,"Thus there are not three gods." So again there is nothing here about three gods in one head or heads or anything like that. The same is true of the Westminster Confession of Faith. Chapter II, "Of God, and of the Holy Trinity, opens by saying, "There is but one only living and true God..." So once again, your claim the Trinity affirms three gods stuck in one head is way, way off base, a horrible caricature of Christian teaching on the subject. It is just the kind of slander one would expect form a member of a cult with a proven track record for having provided a fradulent translation of the Bible and a proven track record for generating outright lies about the Christian religion. You also misunderstand some of the Christian artistic imagery representing God with three faces. Person, in the Trinitarian senses of the term, originally meant a mask or role played by an actor. Hence, attributing three faces to God means God plays three roles: creator, savior, and comforter. Hence, this imagery means anything but three gods stuck in one head. So again, your reckoning is way off base. And the same is true of your references to Scripture. If you can't see any references to the Trinity in the Bible, it's because you haven't read the Bible. For example, the prologue to the Book of John clearly states"and the Word was God." Forget the bastardized translation of your cult here. A frequent charge the Pharisees made against Christ was in fact that he claimed to be God and thereby taking on tasks exclusively reserved for God such as in forgiving sins, etc., as we find clearly stated in Matthew 9, Jn. 10:33, Mark 2:7, John 5:15-18, etc. Of himself, Christ made statements such as "Before Abraham was, I am, I and the Father are one, the Father is in me and I in the Father, " as we find in Jn. 8, 10, and 38. The Bible proclaims Christ as Savior, and in the biblical world, it was axiomatic that only the God that created you can save you. I have more to say here, but have to stop,as I am out of time. Bottom line: You and your cult have absolutely no comprehension of the Christian concept of the Trinity.

 

[ashkat1`]

They have an app that can be downloaded that has the NWT bible in it. It can also be found on their website. It is not like they are hiding it from anyone. I'm sure a person would only have to ask to get one in book form if they wanted it that way.

They may not be hiding it from anyone. But what is suspicious are the facts that they will not reveal the identities of the translators and that they deliberately mistranslated more than one key passage.

 

[savagewind]

@ashkat1`

Again, I really don't follow your train of thought here. In the Bible, the term "Disciple" have many meanings. One is someone who professes faith in Jesus Christ. The passage you keep referring to, sometimes called The Great Commission, is simply a commandment to go and share your faith with others, with nonbelievers. So I don't know where you come up with the idea that only the JDubs do something like that. For example, scholars do so by sharing their knowledge of Christ and his teachings.
Also, you are sadly mistaken if you think Christ is encouraging anyone to surrender their responsibility. In the eyes of God, we are all responsible for what we do.

Responsible: having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role.

You say Christians have been given the responsibility to make disciples, to be making people into disciples of Jesus. So, if I want to obey that commission, I have to teach someone how to be taught by Jesus. Am I wrong? Is a disciple someone who is taught by Jesus? Maybe you do not think that is the right definition. It is my definition, and if it isn't your definition, we are through, I guess.

 

[ashkat1`]

@ashkat1`

Responsible: having an obligation to do something, or having control over or care for someone, as part of one's job or role.

You say Christians have been given the responsibility to make disciples, to be making people into disciples of Jesus. So, if I want to obey that commission, I have to teach someone how to be taught by Jesus. Am I wrong? Is a disciple someone who is taught by Jesus? Maybe you do not think that is the right definition. It is my definition, and if it isn't your definition, we are through, I guess.

Well, you certainly would be responsible to provide others with the tools and resources they need in order to study about Christ's teachings, such as providing them with Bibles, teaching them how to read so that they could read the Bible. Sunday-school classes were actually started to teach people how to read so they could read the Bible. You also have to let them teach you what they need to learn and do in order to be good students.

 

[savagewind]

I watched a YouTube video once about how young Jewish men were assigned a teacher and they would disciple with that teacher, so I am sure
THEY would understand what I am saying about disciple being a VERB. None of those young men were given the responsibility to go out in their spare time looking for others to be taught by their teacher. In fact, some of the great teachers of that time might have limited the number of students they had.

 

[savagewind]

Well, you certainly would be responsible to provide others with the tools and resources they need in order to study about Christ's teachings, such as providing them with Bibles, teaching them how to read so that they could read the Bible. Sunday-school classes were actually started to teach people how to read so they could read the Bible. You also have to let them teach you what they need to learn and do in order to be good students.

Are you being funny on purpose? We are talking about words that were supposedly uttered 2000 years ago. A Bible? Sunday school? LOL

 

[savagewind]

You also have to let them teach you what they need to learn and do in order to be good students.

Say what?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

YOU say the Bible says Make, and I say it doesn't. But I agree with you that a disciple's fine conduct becomes an advertisement for God's Kingdom and someone will know who else is of Jesus Christ. By a person's conduct and by preaching others are drawn to Christ also. Conduct and preaching is called discipleship. That is what he telling us to do. Not make. There is ONE creator or Maker.
Where else in scripture shows reason to believe anyone else is creator or maker?

An advertisement does not make a sale. Money does.

Look at it in this light,

Mark 16:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Romans 1:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

You claim to be a Christian don't you? Then someone said something, did something, or showed you something that "made" you a disciple, a student of the Gospel. They didn't wave a wand, or cast a spell, or anything of the such, they presented something that touched your heart and you became a disciple. They "MADE" you a disciple.

 

[savagewind]

Look at it in this light,

Mark 16:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Romans 1:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

You claim to be a Christian don't you? Then someone said something, did something, or showed you something that "made" you a disciple, a student of the Gospel.

What is this supposed to mean? Is a student of the Gospel the same as a student of Jesus Christ?

They didn't wave a wand, or cast a spell, or anything of the such, they presented something that touched your heart and you became a disciple. They "MADE" you a disciple.

No! Nobody "made" me a disciple except Jesus did.

Guys! Is he dead to you? Why do you all speak as though he does not live?

 

[savagewind]

Romans 1:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations,

.

By the way, there are no apostles. Are there?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

What is this supposed to mean? Is a student of the Gospel the same as a student of Jesus Christ?

My Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the teacher,

John 14:26 (ESV Strong's) 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

 

[savagewind]

I shall concede half way with you all. There is no one who can make a person into a disciple, except God, of course, but there are people who can dissuade others from discipleship imo.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

By the way, there are no apostles. Are there?

You tell me,

Apostle - g0652. ἀπόστολος apostolos; from 649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”) (with miraculous powers): — apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

 

[savagewind]

My Bible says that the Holy Spirit is the teacher,

John 14:26 (ESV Strong's) 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Yes, Jesus is The Holy Spirit in his "dead" state. He said, "I am going" and "I will be with you". How else but by The Holy Spirit?

 

[savagewind]

You tell me,

Apostle - g0652. ἀπόστολος apostolos; from 649; a delegate; specially, an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”) (with miraculous powers): — apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

Yes, ok, but not any self-proclaimed ambassador. They actually have to be truly sent.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I shall concede half way with you all. There is no one who can make a person into a disciple, except God, of course, but there are people who can dissuade others from discipleship imo.

1 Corinthians 3:5-9 (ESV Strong's) 5 What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. 8 He who plants and he who waters are one, and each will receive his wages according to his labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

Who is "MAKING" disciples in these verses?