Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Sorrry , unlike you, I have no ability to discuss nonsense.
Signing off.
Signing off.
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Our moon is constant
- Thread starter peacecrusader888
- Start date
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I ortherwise thought you did just that very well indeed - just by sticking firmly to your gravity ideas
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jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
Nope...
Gravity capture is just as likely to result in tidal locking as primary ejection, given enough time.
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
Not according to the observations and measurements below.
"Gravity capture" is just another Standard Model substitute explanation for the real causes and dynamics in cosmos.
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jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
Yeah... the moon is probably a chunk of the Earth, caused by a great collision with something during the accretion of the protoplanetary disk. That's a well-known explanation for it's mineral make-up and it's relatively large size. Pretty much everyone knows this. But that has little-to-nothing to do with the arguments you are making, does it? Just because our moon most likely formed that way doesn't mean that all moons formed that way, does it? If you think that it does, then I'd like to hear your explanation for how large terrestrial bodies were formed from gas giants.
Also, please explain the "real causes and dynamics in the solar system", since very basic concepts in physics, like "gravity capture" seem to be nothing more than "standard model substitutes" in your understanding.
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
@Aupmanyav,
I know there are more explanations in both the Hindu texts and even more interpretations of the astronomical meanings.
IMO the ancient astro-myths deals with two rotational axis, namely the Earth axis and the axis of the Milky Way rotation. If taking the text literally, the “sun which never sets” resembles very logically this central light of the Milky Way.
The interpretative problem here is that scholars who don´t include the Milky Way Myths, interpret this central light as “the sun”. But when holding this up against the Hindu myth where “the Solar System orbits Mount Meru as one unit”, this interpretation cannot be correct.
You:
You:
You:
You:
I know there are more explanations in both the Hindu texts and even more interpretations of the astronomical meanings.
IMO the ancient astro-myths deals with two rotational axis, namely the Earth axis and the axis of the Milky Way rotation. If taking the text literally, the “sun which never sets” resembles very logically this central light of the Milky Way.
The interpretative problem here is that scholars who don´t include the Milky Way Myths, interpret this central light as “the sun”. But when holding this up against the Hindu myth where “the Solar System orbits Mount Meru as one unit”, this interpretation cannot be correct.
You:
This astro-myth deals correctly with the Earth orbital motion around the Sun (The “Solar axis” via the Earth orbital motion), but IMO it is mixed up with the Milky Way connection to the Mount Meru Myth.
You:
I´m not sure of this North Pole axis interpretation. When “gods behold the sun after a single rising”, suggests more to me a Milky Way connection, but the context could also suggest a seasonal description with the Aries constellation.
You:
No doubts this deals with the seasonal matters.
Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
"Yeah... the moon is probably a chunk of the Earth, but IMO NOT caused by a great collision . . ." but via a dispersion from the Earth when the entire Solar Sytem planets were molten hot. This is significantly what the discoveries mentioned above strongly indicates.
About other planetary moons: Those which also orbits their mother planets in a locked stage, are most likely also formed as "children of their mother planets". This is to me the logical explanation, backed up by the synchronous motions and the similar compositions.
Regarding formations of "gas giants": It´s my opinion that stars basically are formed in the galactic centers and surroundings via electromagnetical forces and laws.
When a sphere of hot gas and particles is formed in the galactic center, it gains the angular momentun here, and when reaching a critical weight, it is slung out in the galactic surroundings, and early in this process, spheres of particles are dispersed out from the "hot mother sphere". It is later in this proces the moons also are dispersed out of their mother planets.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
In reply to your post # 106:
“IMO the ancient astro-myths deals with two rotational axis, namely the Earth axis and the axis of the Milky Way rotation. If taking the text literally, the “sun which never sets” resembles very logically this central light of the Milky Way.”: We do not have two rotational axes in Hindu mythology. It was sun only. Milky Way was the life-giving celestial and terrestrial river Saraswati, so dear to the Aryans, that they named the major river of the region where they stayed as Saraswati. First it was River Arghandab in Afghanistan which flowed through Kandhar and then another north of Delhi, which dried up some 4,000 years ago due to tectonic upheaval. The Zoroastrians also mentioned it as Harahwaiti or Aredvi Sura Anahita. After coming to India it became the consort of Lord Brahma and the Goddess of all learning (Saraswati and another Aryan Goddess Vac were merged).
“The interpretative problem here is that scholars who don´t include the Milky Way Myths, interpret this central light as “the sun”. But when holding this up against the Hindu myth where “the Solar System orbits Mount Meru as one unit”, this interpretation cannot be correct.”: Why must we include going round with Milky Way? It was never done either by the Aryans or by the indigenous.
Cf. Siddhânta Shiromani, Golādhyâya, Bhāskarâchārya II (1114–1185) Chapter vii., verses 6-7.
“There is a peculiarity at the place, where the latitude is greater than 66° N. Whenever the northern declination of the sun exceeds the complement of the latitude, there will be perpetual day, for such time is that excess continues. Similarly when the southern (declination exceeds), there will be perpetual night. On Meru, therefore there is equal half-yearly perpetual day and night.”: This is not a myth but the observation of a comparatively recent astronomer (12th Century). It has no connection with the Milky Way.
“Mount Meru is the terrestrial North Pole of our astronomers, and the Sûrya-Siddhânta, XII, 67, says: — “At Meru Gods behold the sun after but a single rising during the half of his revolution beginning with Aries.” I´m not sure of this North Pole axis interpretation. When “gods behold the sun after a single rising”, suggests more to me a Milky Way connection, but the context could also suggest a seasonal description with the Aries constellation.”: There is no problem with the North Pole axis interpretation.
There are just too many verses in RigVeda to conform this. I mention a few:
· In X, 138, 3 The sun is said to have unyoked his car, not at sunset, or on the horizon, but in the midst of heaven, there to rest for some time.
· In the legend of Aditi (Rig. X, 72, 8) tells us, “Of the eight sons of Aditi, who were born from her body, she approached the gods with seven and cast out Mârtânda.” In the Aryan homeland, the sun was above the horizon for seven months and went below the hoizon in the eighth.
The Aries connection: This came late, after Aryans and the indigenous merged. Aryan division of the year was from Vernal equinox to Autumnal equinox and back again (Devayana and Pitriyana). Due to the change in locale (from Arctic region, not sure which, Europe or Russia, to India) and season the present division of the Hindu year is from Winter Solstice to Summer Solstice and back (Uttarayana and Dakshinayana).
And about a long dawn:
· Another verse which has not yet been satisfactorily explained is the Rig-Veda I, 123, 8. It says “The dawns, alike today and alike tomorrow, dwell long in the abode of Varuna. Blameless, they forthwith go round (pari yanti) thirty yojanas; each its destined course (kratum).”
· In one of these (VII, 76), the poet, after stating in the first two verses that the Dawns have raised their banner on the horizon with their usual splendor, expressly tells us, (verse 3), that a period of several days elapsed between the first appearance of the dawn on the horizon and the actual rising of the sun that followed it.
“Those verily days many were which aforetime on the uprising of the sun from which after towards a lover like, moving on O Dawn wast seen not again forsaking (woman).”
And a long night:
· Thus in II, 27, 14, the poet says, “Aditi, Mitra and also Varuna forgive if we have committed any sin against you! May I obtain the wide fearless light, O Indra! May not the long darkness comeover us.”
· In I, 46, 6, the Ashvins are asked “to vouchsafe such strength to the worshiper as may carry him through darkness”
You see, native, I was about 13 years old when my grandpa was translating Tilak’s book from English to Hindi; and I am 73 years old now. I have a sixty-year association with the subject and know it inside-out. I have given two examples of each situation, but there are many more, which I have omitted so as not to make the post too long. You can check all these references at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm in a translation by Ralph Griffith.
“Thus if the latitude of a place be 70°, its complement will be 90 – 70 = 20°; .. the long night commences on 18th November, and ends on 24th January, lasting in all, for 67 days of twenty-four hours each.”
You said “No doubts this deals with the seasonal matters.”
No, it does not. No seasons involved here. It deals with the length of day and night at different lattitudes.
I said “For comparative Mythology, I will suggest a reading of 'Arctic Home in Vedas" by BG Tilak, available as PDF at https://archive.org/details/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas”
You said “With a quick look at the contents here, it seems to me that the good author confuses astro-myths with geographical matters, a so called “geo-myth” which is common for scholars who don´t have the Milky Way Mythical knowledge or knowledge of the star constellation myths.”
I state: Milky Way is not a major base of myths in RigVeda Aryan myths. The major subject is sun which stayed in sky for a long period, a dawn which continued for 30 days, a night which was 2 months long, a year which consisted of ten months (like the old Roman calendar where two months were added in 700 BC by Emperor Numa) and the priests who concluded their annual ritual cycle in ten months (Dashagwahas).
Kindly note that the reference to Milky way at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way_(mythology)#Hindu is from Purnas, of a very recent date, less than 2,000 years old; where as the RigVeda reference is about 6,000 years old.
I would not be averse to discussing the mythology of Constellations as they appear in Hindu scriptures if you so desire. 6000 years ago, Orion was considered the ‘Prajapati’ (Lord of People), the Supreme God. The sacred thread that Hindus and Zoroastrians wear is a representation of Bernard’s belt around Orion.
Belt of Orion, Hindu boy wearing the sacred thread.
“IMO the ancient astro-myths deals with two rotational axis, namely the Earth axis and the axis of the Milky Way rotation. If taking the text literally, the “sun which never sets” resembles very logically this central light of the Milky Way.”: We do not have two rotational axes in Hindu mythology. It was sun only. Milky Way was the life-giving celestial and terrestrial river Saraswati, so dear to the Aryans, that they named the major river of the region where they stayed as Saraswati. First it was River Arghandab in Afghanistan which flowed through Kandhar and then another north of Delhi, which dried up some 4,000 years ago due to tectonic upheaval. The Zoroastrians also mentioned it as Harahwaiti or Aredvi Sura Anahita. After coming to India it became the consort of Lord Brahma and the Goddess of all learning (Saraswati and another Aryan Goddess Vac were merged).
“The interpretative problem here is that scholars who don´t include the Milky Way Myths, interpret this central light as “the sun”. But when holding this up against the Hindu myth where “the Solar System orbits Mount Meru as one unit”, this interpretation cannot be correct.”: Why must we include going round with Milky Way? It was never done either by the Aryans or by the indigenous.
Cf. Siddhânta Shiromani, Golādhyâya, Bhāskarâchārya II (1114–1185) Chapter vii., verses 6-7.
“There is a peculiarity at the place, where the latitude is greater than 66° N. Whenever the northern declination of the sun exceeds the complement of the latitude, there will be perpetual day, for such time is that excess continues. Similarly when the southern (declination exceeds), there will be perpetual night. On Meru, therefore there is equal half-yearly perpetual day and night.”: This is not a myth but the observation of a comparatively recent astronomer (12th Century). It has no connection with the Milky Way.
“Mount Meru is the terrestrial North Pole of our astronomers, and the Sûrya-Siddhânta, XII, 67, says: — “At Meru Gods behold the sun after but a single rising during the half of his revolution beginning with Aries.” I´m not sure of this North Pole axis interpretation. When “gods behold the sun after a single rising”, suggests more to me a Milky Way connection, but the context could also suggest a seasonal description with the Aries constellation.”: There is no problem with the North Pole axis interpretation.
There are just too many verses in RigVeda to conform this. I mention a few:
· In X, 138, 3 The sun is said to have unyoked his car, not at sunset, or on the horizon, but in the midst of heaven, there to rest for some time.
· In the legend of Aditi (Rig. X, 72, 8) tells us, “Of the eight sons of Aditi, who were born from her body, she approached the gods with seven and cast out Mârtânda.” In the Aryan homeland, the sun was above the horizon for seven months and went below the hoizon in the eighth.
The Aries connection: This came late, after Aryans and the indigenous merged. Aryan division of the year was from Vernal equinox to Autumnal equinox and back again (Devayana and Pitriyana). Due to the change in locale (from Arctic region, not sure which, Europe or Russia, to India) and season the present division of the Hindu year is from Winter Solstice to Summer Solstice and back (Uttarayana and Dakshinayana).
And about a long dawn:
· Another verse which has not yet been satisfactorily explained is the Rig-Veda I, 123, 8. It says “The dawns, alike today and alike tomorrow, dwell long in the abode of Varuna. Blameless, they forthwith go round (pari yanti) thirty yojanas; each its destined course (kratum).”
· In one of these (VII, 76), the poet, after stating in the first two verses that the Dawns have raised their banner on the horizon with their usual splendor, expressly tells us, (verse 3), that a period of several days elapsed between the first appearance of the dawn on the horizon and the actual rising of the sun that followed it.
“Those verily days many were which aforetime on the uprising of the sun from which after towards a lover like, moving on O Dawn wast seen not again forsaking (woman).”
And a long night:
· Thus in II, 27, 14, the poet says, “Aditi, Mitra and also Varuna forgive if we have committed any sin against you! May I obtain the wide fearless light, O Indra! May not the long darkness comeover us.”
· In I, 46, 6, the Ashvins are asked “to vouchsafe such strength to the worshiper as may carry him through darkness”
You see, native, I was about 13 years old when my grandpa was translating Tilak’s book from English to Hindi; and I am 73 years old now. I have a sixty-year association with the subject and know it inside-out. I have given two examples of each situation, but there are many more, which I have omitted so as not to make the post too long. You can check all these references at http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/rigveda/index.htm in a translation by Ralph Griffith.
“Thus if the latitude of a place be 70°, its complement will be 90 – 70 = 20°; .. the long night commences on 18th November, and ends on 24th January, lasting in all, for 67 days of twenty-four hours each.”
You said “No doubts this deals with the seasonal matters.”
No, it does not. No seasons involved here. It deals with the length of day and night at different lattitudes.
I said “For comparative Mythology, I will suggest a reading of 'Arctic Home in Vedas" by BG Tilak, available as PDF at https://archive.org/details/TheArcticHomeInTheVedas”
You said “With a quick look at the contents here, it seems to me that the good author confuses astro-myths with geographical matters, a so called “geo-myth” which is common for scholars who don´t have the Milky Way Mythical knowledge or knowledge of the star constellation myths.”
I state: Milky Way is not a major base of myths in RigVeda Aryan myths. The major subject is sun which stayed in sky for a long period, a dawn which continued for 30 days, a night which was 2 months long, a year which consisted of ten months (like the old Roman calendar where two months were added in 700 BC by Emperor Numa) and the priests who concluded their annual ritual cycle in ten months (Dashagwahas).
Kindly note that the reference to Milky way at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milky_Way_(mythology)#Hindu is from Purnas, of a very recent date, less than 2,000 years old; where as the RigVeda reference is about 6,000 years old.
I would not be averse to discussing the mythology of Constellations as they appear in Hindu scriptures if you so desire. 6000 years ago, Orion was considered the ‘Prajapati’ (Lord of People), the Supreme God. The sacred thread that Hindus and Zoroastrians wear is a representation of Bernard’s belt around Orion.
Belt of Orion, Hindu boy wearing the sacred thread.
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Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
@Aupmanyav
I have to ponder more over your long reply before answering, but in the mean time, take a look at this issue:
Edit: It seem there´s no problems finding Vedic texts and informations about the Milky Way connection.
Link:
Sri Krishna’s Milky Way Galaxy - https://medium.com/galactic-cosmolo...hnas-milky-way-galaxy-809a55b12ffa#.4ar915p5u
I have to ponder more over your long reply before answering, but in the mean time, take a look at this issue:
Read this article, "The Milky Way and the Cosmic Soma" - https://vedanet.com/2012/06/13/the-milky-way-and-the-cosmic-soma/
Edit: It seem there´s no problems finding Vedic texts and informations about the Milky Way connection.
Link:
Sri Krishna’s Milky Way Galaxy - https://medium.com/galactic-cosmolo...hnas-milky-way-galaxy-809a55b12ffa#.4ar915p5u
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Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
@Aupmanyav,
I´ve read through yor reply #108 and I don´t wish to comment further on this before you´ve read the two linked articles in # 109.
I´ve lnked these articles in order to loosen up on our different points of views.
So I´ll wait for your answer.
Cheers
I´ve read through yor reply #108 and I don´t wish to comment further on this before you´ve read the two linked articles in # 109.
I´ve lnked these articles in order to loosen up on our different points of views.
So I´ll wait for your answer.
Cheers
peacecrusader888
Active Member
You believe that "all religions are basically one - the same cosmological conditions creates the same cultural Stories of Creation'. Is it not more important to know how our soul can be with the true God than trying to explain the story of creation? I say true God because there should be a leader.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Wrong tree, @peacecrusader888 , I am an atheist and Native is Shamanist. We have found our true religions.@Native, David Frawley is well-known here as a supporter of chauvinist Hindus. Please note that in his long Milky Way article, he has given just one reference from RigVeda. He is not a historian.
As for Jon Habel (Govardhan Das), he is from an extreme biased sect of Hinduism, the Hare-Krishnas, and will have all references from Srimad Bhagawatham written around the beginning of Christian era and supported by other puranas of his Vaishnava sect, which were written even later. That again does not mean history.
I can give you better references about Milky way which I will do in my next post. These will be from BG Tilak's first book on the Subject, "Orion or the Antiquity of Vedas" (my grandpa translated that too from English to Hindi), which also is available in PDF form at https://archive.org/details/orionortheantiqu021979mbp. These two books (Arctic Home and Orion) are authentic historical research, very well referenced and always a pleasure to read.
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Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
My genuine errand is to study Comparative Mythology and see how these compare to eachother and try to compare the numerous Stories of Creation with the observations of modern science. I´m primarily not dealing with the issues of of our souls.
I don´t think of the "a leader" in the creation and I wonder how you as an atheist can "say true God because there should be a leader"?
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Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
I don´t care about the personal issues of an author, just about their written contents.
It´s fine to study historical facts and geographical locations of ancient populations, but when it comes to the mythical tellings from all cultures, the primary focus point is not historical as such, but pure mythical as in the Stories of Creation, which of course deals with the ancient known part of what is created, namely:
The Earth in the Solar System in the Milky Way and even the telling of the pre-conditions of this creation. These facts are embedded in al myths of creation and have real and concrete cosmogonical and cosmlogical informations.
Edit: The stories of creation of course goes far back in time, in fact about 4.7 billion years according to modern science. So these stories cannot be taken directly to account for historical times of civilizations. The Story of Creation is about archetypes of creation which forces works eternally.
Thank you very much for this link. I´m very pleased to see an image of the Milky Way on the second page
and I´ve downloaded the file for more readings.Aupmanyav, as the topic here is specifically on the lunar issues, I think our further conversation about the mythical aspects shall be personal if you like.
Cheers
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I agree, Native. Therefore, I have started a new topic in General Religious Debates forum where I have collected some new information for you on the subject. The topic is at http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/astronomy-and-myths-of-milky-way-in-the-aryan-world.188619/
However, Soma was the third most important independent God in RigVeda. Soma has 123 hymns in RigVeda dedicated to it while Indra and Agni have 289 and 218 respectively. Soma was not generally associated with Moon except in a few of the latest hymns of the RigVeda. Soma later, begins to be mystically identified with the moon. In the AtharvaVeda, Soma several times means the moon; and in the Brahmanas this identification has already become a commonplace. By which time, IMHO, Soma leaves were not available in India and the use of Soma as a drink had already stopped.
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Native
Free Natural Philosopher & Comparative Mythologist
OK and thank you. We´ll meet there
gnostic
The Lost One
LOL
gnostic
The Lost One
Oh, damn it.Eeek!
I got a cover for the sun going supernova, not for turning into a red giant.
gnostic
The Lost One
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Sorry to disappoint. No supernova.Oh, damn it.
I got a cover for the sun going supernova, not for turning into a red giant.
Unless...
If by chance we get another star passing by and become a twin in a binary system. Then there's a chance.