sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Wow! That's so sad. I have a very, very dear friend who was suicidal over his orientation and his parents' overly-angst-ridden reaction to it. Sorry to hear this.
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Mormon Church To US Supreme Court: Ban Gay Marriage
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
This is absolute BULL. You know what they mean. Normal consenting adults.
Your words try to turn this into a ridiculous slippery-slope argument.
They are equal, and the same. They are both just the marriage of two people in love. It doesn't matter what some religious groups think about it.
LOL! Open your eyes.
You aren't being discriminated against. You can believe any outdated ideas you want to. It is the acting on those ideas that is the problem. What religions don't have the right to do, - is force those outdated ideas onto the rest of the public.
For instance - you can believe in the Biblical law to - KILL people that work on the Sabbath. But you do NOT have the right to carry that out, or force that archaic law on the rest of us.
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Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I bet that you think that his parents are at fault and that your friend was the victim rather than his parents, who were probably indoctrinated all there lives that homosexuality was unnatural and they too probably visualised what their precious son was doing with other men and it shamed them, through no real fault of their own. That is what the majority think, but say nothing. i feel sorry for both the parents and the son. Things must have been so bad for the parents, whether you agree or not, that they felt it necessary to move away. The son obviously could not change how he felt so he took his life in order to stop the emotional pain. It is not always the parents fault. Most parents do not want a gay son. They want grandchildren who are part of their seed and a daughter in law to know that their son is doing what they consider to be normal. Homosexuality seems to be fraught with huge negatives that everyone knows about, except for the homosexuals. We tend to think that the person who is deseased is always the victim because they are dead, but that is not always the case. People like me find homosexuality to be wierd and unnatural because that is how we have been raised, plus, when you look at it carefully, it is wierd and unnatural,
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I consider homosexuality to be normal. I don't care what my children are, so long as they're happy and responsible. The only negative to homosexuality is the inability or unwillingness for those who are not homosexual to consider homosexuality to be normal. It causes them to perpetrate violence against their homosexual friends and family members, as you're doing here, by making statements such as "the diseased." Homosexuality isn't a "disease." It's normal. I, too, was reared to think that homosexuality was an illness and "unnormal." I learned to change my tune. So did my parents. It can happen. It's possible. It should happen.
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
This is a controversial but very good point. I told a story the other day about my father being very openly anti-gay when my sister and I were kids. We both hated it, but I took the approach that the old man was indoctrinated as most other men his age were in that generation, and had little chance to grow up with any other ideas about gay people.
Still...though I agree in principle, we are all responsible to grow and learn and shed the bigotry of our parents. Otherwise, if no one escaped indoctrination, we wouldn't be seeing the improvement we are today.
I was also indoctrinated, very heavily, and until I got out of my small town and went to college and started learning more about the world around me, I held the same negative views about gay people that my father had given to me. Eventually I rejected that and, though it may be hard, it's on each of us to shed and prejudice we have been taught.
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
Well, it is good to see someone using objective reasoning instead of being brain washed by subjectively bigotry. There is nothing wrong in playing Devils advocate, It is, in my opinion, the best way of learning about why people are what they are.
When I grew up the whole of society was anti-gay, it was illegal. If you were found to be gay then you were sent to a mental institution and given electric shock theopy to cure you. Politicians openly denounced their behaviour, as did our schools. Our society was far more religiously orientated back then and readily accepting of outlawing anything that went against the norm, other than conventional missionary position heterosexual sex. I think my wife might have divorced me if I suggested anal sex to her thinking that I may be gay. Woman were treated with the utmost respect and decorum. Homosexuality was considered weird and anyone who indulged was considered to be untrustworthy and suspicious.
We are all very different. We all grew up in differing environments with varying degrees of morality and respect. When i was younger i thought that it was very strange for two men to engage in anal sex. Nothing to do with religion, just very odd. Today, after 40 odd years of being a Christian, I still feel the same, however, I now just accept it to be none of my business and the free agency of men, I will have to stand accountable for my own sins so I cannot get involved in the wrongs and rights of homosexuality. I only express my beliefs on these forums, which is enough for me when these religious type forums are always so full of atheists, antichrists and gays. My personal belief is that anal sex is disgusting and creates many negatives in our society, however, I also believe that time is running short and those spirits that dwell on earth today were fence sitters during the war in heaven, so nobody is going to change them. No ammout of evangelism will convert them. They are Satan's elite and are being prepare for Armageddon. I sincerely believe that and this is just one prophecy that is being realised in preparation for that day. It goes contrary to the teachings of Christ, as he said it would. Sexual perversion will become common place in the last days. It now appears to the world as though it is normal, however, smoking was once considered normal until people started dying of lung cancer.
It seems to me that you have left the protection of your parents and have decided that the standards of society are right and your dad is wrong. The bible tells us that in the last days there will appear a great devide between the standards of the world and the teachings of God. The same as with Sodom and Gomorrah only much, much worse, as demonstrated by the Brussels Bombing today. In my opinion, you are backing the wrong horse when choosing the values of a corrupt society and the morals of a loving God. Homosexuality is just the tip of the iceberg. God said that we should honor our parents and the day of our life will be long. I think you should reconsider the words of your father. He is not going to tell you anything that will hurt you, on the contrary, we cannot do that. Fathers love their offspring with a unique and abising unconditional lovem something that is considered to be missing when adopting because it is a spiritual bond
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
But, according to the teachings of Jesus in the bible, Christianity is all about subverting the norm, because the norm is set by those who are in power, and Jesus was on the side of the powerless.
What world have you been living in??? The world in past days (and in many, many places today) was EXTREMELY misogynistic. Heck! We're still trying to get equal pay for equal work between the sexes. It's your apparent lack of being able to even see the discrimination in which you participate (such as your assertion that "women were always treated with utmost respect), coupled with your beautiful-on-the-surface statements about God, bible, religion, spirituality, that make it all too apparent that you've completely bought in to the entitled mind set that drives your complicity in the institutional violence that has been prevalent ever since God created white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant men.
It's "none of your business," yet you seem all too ready to spout your judgmental venom in a public forum. Methinks that you do think it's "your business," after all, yes?
That's fine. And that being said, why are you equating anal sex with homosexuality??? Anal sex is a completely different animal from a homosexual orientation.
It's not society that's corrupt in this regard. What's corrupt is the systemic discrimination that flies under the radar of people such as yourself, who think that the church has never and cannot make mistakes -- who believe the bible cannot be in error, and who are convinced that God is on "their side."
Again: What planet have you been living on??? Fathers don't always love their offspring unconditionally. My wife and sister work for a state entity that investigates and handles cases of child abuse and neglect. It's depressing how many fathers abuse their children emotionally, physically and sexually. That's not unconditional love, my friend. Many times, overbearing, self-entitled men with narrow ideas do irreparable harm by disowning their homosexual children.
No, I'm afraid that the world isn't "getting worse." I'm afraid that the world of the "religious and moral majority" simply isn't the Norman Rockwell illustration you have made it out to be here. The prevailing religion and resultant social mores are deeply, deeply flawed and bear much scrutiny and overhaul. And I say that as a member of the clergy.
If I may say so, sounds pretty deplorable to me. Like Oceania (aka that society of subjugated people in 1984.) No wonder the Kinsey Study had to be so secretive of the majority of surveyed people. They would have been divorced or imprisoned! Women treated with decorum and respect? You mean all the depictions of women being spanked by their husbands? All the depictions of women being dumb or subservient to their husbands? If that's respect and decorum, I'd hate to see disrespect.
This is exactly why we lost such greats as Sir Alan Turing well within his prime. Why we lost Oscar Wilde, well within his prime. Almost lost Micheal Angelo or Leonardo Da Vinci before theirs. I shudder to think what our world would look like if homophobic bigotry caused us such an immense loss to our collective culture.
Besides swap out homosexuality with black people and you lose nothing, because that was also the exact same justification used. The past don't have all the answers. They have learning curves.
You know why the current generation rejects the homophobia of the past generations? It's for the same reasons we reject racist attitudes.
Most of us youngsters actually know gay people. They are our friends, our family. We know them as people and not "the other" like previous generations, therefore it's harder for us to even consider the past homophobic behavior as anything other than misinformed and disgusting.
Oh and anal sex doesn't equal "gay" anymore than a dildo equals lesbian.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
I, for one, am very glad children can outgrow the bigotry of their parents. My own parents are not only homophobic, they are rather quite racist. They don't even approve of interracial marriages.But I shed the Christianity, but I still held prejudices against homosexuals. And then I got to know some, befriended some, and my prejudice towards homosexuals withered and died.
Yes, I am very glad we are able to shed any bigotry and prejudices are parents may instill in us.
Is that why they were paid less, expected to be house wives, and expected to be obedient to their husband?
It was also believed that freeing the slaves would create many negatives. It was believed that ending Jim Crow would create many negatives. It was believed allowing women the right to vote would create many negatives.
Maybe in a fantasy world. Sure, some do, but some, like my own, walk out. They pack a few things and leave. Some fathers abuse their children, either physically, emotionally, sexually, or a combination of the three. Some fathers neglect their children, some pay no attention to them, and some are worthy of being called nothing more than "sperm donor."
My dad walked out, and my mom was emotionally abusive. What is there to honor? What is there to honor about those parents who are worse than mine?
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
WOW! Spiritual Blinders?
Ask older women for the truth about their marriages!
They stayed in them because they had no choice!
Beatings and abuse, alcoholic, cheating husbands, children hanging off their skirts, and no real jobs in which they could make enough money to feed those children, if they divorced those abusive husbands.
If they found the courage to leave anyway, - family and society ostracized them!
Churches excommunicated them!
So much for the happy housewife crap.
Today when women are making enough money to survive, - marriage is slowly going the way of the Dodo bird.
Older women are starting to NOT remarry after a divorce, or death of a husband.
After all - why be under the thumb of a male - when you don't have to be?
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Ah! Those halcyon days of yesteryear -- where every woman was well-respected with a chain long enough to reach the stove from the bed...
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Hey! Skeezix! Helpful Hint #1: Life is not the Donna Reed Show!
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
My dear friend, I have come to the conclusion that your knowledge of the scriptures fall far short of that of a ordained minister. Christianity is most certainly not about contentious subverting. One aspect of the story of Jesus was his disgust at the way that the Jews were acting in His fathers name. Christianity is all about the Plan of Salvation. Anything else is incidental
Not yours, that is for sure
Not in my world, Maybe in the world of those who are deluded by woman were treated like gold dust in my time and in my fathers time and in my grandfathers time. I know that because I lived in it.
Not in my country, we are not. In my world women were not made to work, or wanted to work. They had a far more important and injoyable job, raising children into responsible adults.
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Or is it your bigotry
That has nothing to do with my God. Last time I read anything on that it was man that create those unfortunate situations, not God. Institutional violence is perpetuated by men and their choices.
This is a debating forum. It is what we do here. If you find that this effects your sensibilities and is offensive to you, then maybe you shouldn't be here.
I am not. You are. I have do problems with people who love each other, although you are desperately trying to hang that on me. Anal sex is a sexual perversion. God has condemned it as a sin. Anal sex is what gays do and the bible says that they must not do it. There is no mention of heterosexuals not doing it, although I am sure it comes under the umbrella of sexual perversion. This is about God saying that anal sex is unacceptable and a heinous sin.
Homosexuality is a minority group, around 3.5%, as was the David Koresh's Branch Davidians, Pedophilia, Satan Worshipers. All of these are condemned as unnatural and unacceptable in our society. There are currently 79 countries where homosexuality is illegal. The biggest concentration of homosexuals is in a country where 86% of its occupants call themselves Christian. Society do not accept minority group simply because they are in a minority.84 percent of the world population has faith; a third are Christian. To suggest that 3.5% follow a lifestyle that is normal is nothing short of pathetic. The norm is quite obviously heterosexuality as it is the majority orientation. Homosexuality is an anomaly an abnormality that few subscribe to. the world sees it as an oddity, a peculiarity, a incongruity, an exception to the rule, a divergence to societies view on normality. You are saying that heterosexuals and homosexuals both act within the realms of normality. Do you believe that pedophiles, rapists and murderers are normal? There can only be one normal and it isn't homosexuality.
Just as a matter of interest, did you know that by saying "What planet have you been living on" that you are insulting me. If you do then what is your motive for being so hostile.
As with everything is our world, there are always exceptions to the rule. I didn't say that all fathers love their offspring unconditionally for that reason. Still trying to put words in my mouth. You make it sound like the alternative is common place, as you do with homosexuality.
Oh, the world is getting much worse, and anyone who says that it is not, with the plethora of evidence available, is to be treated with suspicion. And I say this a s a member of the Religious Forum as the clergy have no authority to call themselves clergy. You are fulfilling the prophecy that men will call wrong right and right wrong.
12 Signs That The Decay Of Society Is Accelerating
What in the world is happening to America? All around us there are disturbing signs that the slow-motion collapse of society is accelerating. With each passing year, criminals seem to be getting more desperate and more twisted. Some of the sick things that some people are willing to do to their fellow human beings are simply beyond description. What kind of psychotic individual would hold elderly men captive for a decade in order to get their Social Security and veteran benefit checks? How depraved do you have to be before you are able to convince yourself to rape a 16-year-old girl and then throw her body off of a roof? What kind of heartless teens would pour gasoline on an innocent boy walking home from school and then set him on fire? The social decay that is eating away at our nation like cancer is starting to get a lot worse, and yet there are still lots of people out there that will flat out deny that society is collapsing. They have totally bought into the propaganda being pushed by the mainstream media, and they are fully convinced that things in America are actually getting better even though our communities are literally coming apart at the seams all around us. How much worse do things have to get before everyone finally is willing to admit that we have a major problem on our hands? The following are 12 signs that the decay of society is accelerating…
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/12-signs-that-the-decay-of-society-is-accelerating
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
I don't know who Donna Reed is. Your slur is therefore wasted
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Anal sex is not once mentioned or condemned in the Bible. It isn't. You can keep saying it is, but the facts are is that it is not.
Some gay men do it, and some (about half) heterosexuals do it. This sort of red herring is getting you no where, except to make you appear very uneducated about human sexuality.
You certainly didn't say "some fathers." Your just gave a blanket statement of "fathers love their offspring..."
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
I thought you blocked me because you got all sensitive about me teasing you in my posts. Did you unblock me?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Your "conclusion" is as reality-based as the rest of the drivel you've posted here. Heck! You think that the bible condemns homosexuality, yet you can't seem to produce one text that explicitly does so.
See Luke 4:17-21. People are held captive and oppressed by those in power. Setting them free is subversive to that power base. That's what Xy is all about; it's why Jesus came -- to release captives.
What do you call releasing captives and freeing the oppressed?
Obviously, you've been living in "Fluffy, Christian, Candy Land," where everyone thinks and believes as you do -- where you don't have to feel bad about oppressing women or homosexuals.
See above. People own gold. Women are not gold. Women are human beings.
No one "makes" women work. Women want to work -- to have careers, educations and opportunities. In your world, apparently, women are treated so well that they have a chain long enough to reach the stove from the bed.
No, it's your narrow-mindedness.
Of course it is! What do you think "white, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant males" are?
If you don't have any business with what others do, why are you here?
You have said many, many times that homosexuality is an abomination, and you have tied it to anal sex.
This has nothing to do with percentages. It has everything to do with treating people who are normal as if they're normal.
You said, "Fathers love their children unconditionally." "All" is implied by the structure and context of that sentence.
Much worse than what? Routine slavery, torture, rampant disease, lack of education, lack of basic, human rights? Worse than that?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Of course you don't. Your blinders are, apparently, long and dark. But it's not wasted, because everyone else on here knows what I'm talking about.
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
And that is important to you, right, playing to an audience. That is obviously what gets you off. It does nothing for me. I need no audience to play to.
Serenity7855
Lambaster of the Angry Anti-Theists
No, I have never blocked you. I don't get sensitive to criticism, as sojourner does, If I did then I wouldn't be here. I actually expect posters to disagree with me as my candid opinions are plainly-spoken and forthright, never-the-less, they are made in earnest and honesty. I have no agenda. I would only block someone if I start to get a migraine from banging my head against a brick wall.
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