Origins of the Quran/Islam - various academic perspectives

[Shad]

non sequitur.

Actually it isn't. Neither Augustus or I are agreeing for Islamic tradition. You are beating your own strawman, congratulation.

Someone copied and plagiarized text

Commentary which references verse is really neither. Just the belief in authorship is wrong. As if I said X text was written by Bob but was written by Joe.

Example Noah is a plagiarized version of Mesopotamian traditions. So is adam and eve

Which is different than Islam since one references previous texts and tradition while the other does not at all

And many other biblical aspects[/QUOTE]

Yes, so?

 

[outhouse]

Neither Augustus or I are agreeing for Islamic tradition.

Doesn't matter. Its not separate from the historical context here.

 

[Shad]

By the early 4th century, gnostics were kicked out the church and officially forbidden to meet, by the mid 4th century their books were widely banned and by the late 4th century Gnosticism carried a death penalty in the Roman empire

No true scottman fallacy from one set of believers projected to another set of believers. As I said you are arguing a priori only based one group's view. Any Muslim can use the same argument.

 

[outhouse]

Click to expand...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures


pla·gia·rize
[ˈplājəˌrīz]
http://www.religiousforums.com/javascript:void(0)
VERB

1. take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.
   synonyms: copy · infringe the copyright of · pirate · steal · poach ·
   [more]

islam TOOK biblical events and claimed it was their OWN

Many straight up copied

 

[outhouse]

No true scottman fallacy from one set of believers projected to another set of believers. As I said you are arguing a priori only based one group's view. Any Muslim can use the same argument.

that is a wiki link and statement, if you want to argue the encyclopedia, your welcome

 

[Shad]

Doesn't matter. Its not separate from the historical context here.

Yes it matters since you are arguing against Islamic tradition and it's claims which both of us already rejected.

 

[outhouse]

Which religions does the biblical text belong to before the koran was written?


Factually Judaism and Christianity.

 

[outhouse]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures


pla·gia·rize
[ˈplājəˌrīz]

VERB

1. take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.
   synonyms: copy · infringe the copyright of · pirate · steal · poach ·
   [more]

islam TOOK biblical events and claimed it was their OWN

Many straight up copied

islam has taken biblical events and claimed them their own.

There is no way it can be more clearly labeled then plagiarized

 

[outhouse]

COPY

VERB

1. make a similar or identical version of; reproduce:

 

[Shad]

Click to expand...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures


pla·gia·rize
[ˈplājəˌrīz]
VERB

1. take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.
   synonyms: copy · infringe the copyright of · pirate · steal · poach ·
   [more]

islam TOOK biblical events and claimed it was their OWN

Many straight up copied

Yes, and? Again we already reject Islamic tradition in it's claim regarding knowledge Muhammad had. We both are attempting to link various traditions and views in order to see what Muhammad could of known, what he believed in and what effect this had on early Islam in comparison to what Islamic tradition claims.

 

[outhouse]

Again we already reject Islamic tradition in it's claim regarding knowledge Muhammad had.

that is not Islamic traditions, that is factual history

what part of COPY don't you understand?

what part of PLAGAIRIZED don't yo understand?

 

[Shad]

Which religions does the biblical text belong to before the koran was written?


Factually Judaism and Christianity.

So? Plagiarism carries a negative parameter in which the person in question is aware of their deception and the benefits. Fraud as well. Yet if one actually believes in what they claim it is no longer plagiarism.

 

[outhouse]

Plagiarism carries a negative parameter in which the person in question is aware of their deception and the benefits. Fraud as well.

To bad.

It is what it is.

The authors did not know in the future we would figure their little trick out.

It is negative. Thou shalt not steal. They did not have to TAKE and change text, and claim it was their own TRUE version.

But that is exactly what they did.

 

[outhouse]

what part of COPY don't you understand?

what part of PLAGAIRIZED don't yo understand?

 

[outhouse]

This is the reality, you can call it what you want, or use a different language


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures

 

[Shad]

that is not Islamic traditions, that is factual history

Islamic tradition maintains a claim of top-bottom authorship. Allah to Gabriel to Muhammad. That is the tradition we are questioning. We are arguing for a bottom-top authorship, at least I am as a form of religious belief or ghost writer.

what part of COPY don't you understand?

None as copy does not carry the negatives plagiarism does

what part of PLAGAIRIZED don't yo understand?

None, you have just done nothing to establish willing deception rather than commentary on a religious tradition as a religious belief.

 

[Shad]

This is the reality, you can call it what you want, or use a different language


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures

No, calling it something different carries specific parameters that may not apply. Hence the difference between commentary and plagiarism. Incorporates does not carry a parameter of willing deception but of willing adaption. Hence one could argue that Muhammad saw the merit of previous tradition as correct thus a religious belief.

 

[outhouse]

Incorporates does not carry a parameter of willing deception

That is not the definition of plagiarized

take (the work or an idea of someone else) and pass it off as one's own.


TAKE ideas is the key phrase and pass it off as ones OWN

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mythology

Islam incorporates many Biblical events and heroes into its own mythology. Stories about Musa (Moses)[1] and Ibrahim (Abraham)[2] form parts of Islam's scriptures


And this states islam TOOK biblical events, and used them in its OWN mythology

 

[outhouse]

willing deception

non sequitur.

YOU do not get to redefine plagiarize

 

[outhouse]

You have trouble with definitions.

in·cor·po·rate
VERB

1. take in or contain (something) as part of a whole; include: