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Is the Pentagon a Glorified Terrorist Organization?

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I think you just put my point better than I did, Dave. Much better. Damn! How much do I owe you for that one. I do, however, disagree with you a little bit in that I think some definitions of terrorism, if constructed carefully enough, could probably allow us to ascribe some state sponsored actions to terrorism without getting into the "all war is terrorism" morass. But I'm not sure what such a definition would look like, yet.

State-sponsored? Oh hell yes. A lot of terrorism is state-sponsored, in terms of funding and weapons.
Direct-state actions? *ponders*

I think so. I'm not sure what the exact definition would be, but striking outside international law would be included. The nature of the targets would come into play as well.

Maybe something like this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Committee_of_Defense_Against_Communism

Particularly when considering the back-story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'état
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Votes determine who is in power.
What they do with that power is visible.
Re-electing those in power is approval.
It doesn't exculpate the voters to point at manipulative campaigns.
If anything, it makes them look even worse, ie, instead of wanting the consequences, they don't pay attention.
This is still power, albeit power wasted.

Not wasted. Manipulated.

I'm not surprised that there's little reporting on little wars a century or so ago.
How about something current?

"Little" and yet so... microcosmic of a grander problem. And widely unknown.

I will concede fully that I remembered the date of that conflict incorrectly; I thought it was more recent. But simply looking at a timeline of US military operations reveals a LOT of stuff happening. Especially regarding the ones that happened while Bush was in office, I simply cannot trust that they were wholly justified.

I concede that could be my 90s kid talking; I didn't watch X-files till I was much older and could recognize it for the silliness that it is, but its influence was absolutely felt on other media I was exposed to in that time and since.

However, I say again, I'm not just talking about the government here. Other US terrorists/terrorist organizations are independent of the government. Consider that guy who shot up that church earlier this year.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
I think you just put my point better than I did, Dave. Much better. Damn! How much do I owe you for that one. I do, however, disagree with you a little bit in that I think some definitions of terrorism, if constructed carefully enough, could probably allow us to ascribe some state sponsored actions to terrorism without getting into the "all war is terrorism" morass. But I'm not sure what such a definition would look like, yet.

State-sponsored? Oh hell yes. A lot of terrorism is state-sponsored, in terms of funding and weapons.
Direct-state actions? *ponders*

I think so. I'm not sure what the exact definition would be, but striking outside international law would be included. The nature of the targets would come into play as well.

Maybe something like this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Committee_of_Defense_Against_Communism

Particularly when considering the back-story.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'état

...I really should be talking more with you guys instead of just back-and-forthing. Might actually get better at this, that way.

Personally, I consider the Invasion of Iraq to count, being an unprovoked attack on another country's civilians.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
...I really should be talking more with you guys instead of just back-and-forthing. Might actually get better at this, that way.

That would be great!

Personally, I consider the Invasion of Iraq to count, being an unprovoked attack on another country's civilians.

How useful is it to define "terrorism" in such a way that an unprovoked attack on another country's civilians is an act of terrorism? Here's why I ask, Riverwolf: Part of our means of combating terrorism is become informed about what it constitutes. That would include, I think, becoming informed that it is not just random violence, or violence done for the sake of violence, but rather has a political goal. It's only when we realize that terrorists have a political goal that we can sit down, figure out what that goal is, and then act to make sure the terrorists don't achieve it. So, I would think that any greatly useful definition of terrorism must acknowledge that fact about terrorism -- that it has a political goal. Furthermore, I think a useful definition must acknowledge that terrorists seek to bring about that goal via creating terror in a populace to pressure a government to do (or not do) something that achieves the terrorist's goal. So, if any of that makes sense, then it might be too simple to just say that an unprovoked attack on another country's civilians is an act of terrorism. Just my two cents.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not wasted. Manipulated.
Are you saying they're too dumb to understand how they vote?
This seems a real stretch to excuse their choices.
"Little" and yet so... microcosmic of a grander problem. And widely unknown.
I will concede fully that I remembered the date of that conflict incorrectly; I thought it was more recent. But simply looking at a timeline of US military operations reveals a LOT of stuff happening. Especially regarding the ones that happened while Bush was in office, I simply cannot trust that they were wholly justified.
I concede that could be my 90s kid talking; I didn't watch X-files till I was much older and could recognize it for the silliness that it is, but its influence was absolutely felt on other media I was exposed to in that time and since.
However, I say again, I'm not just talking about the government here. Other US terrorists/terrorist organizations are independent of the government. Consider that guy who shot up that church earlier this year.
From the Pentagon's secret wars (before the Pentagon even existed) we now move to claims of other terrorist groups?
This is getting far afield.
 
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lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
...I really should be talking more with you guys instead of just back-and-forthing. Might actually get better at this, that way.

Yay! We don't bite. Well, Sunny is a lion, obviously...but....errr....

Personally, I consider the Invasion of Iraq to count, being an unprovoked attack on another country's civilians.

I wouldn't, but perhaps not for the reasons you might assume.
Terrorism (to me) isn't a measure of 'right' or 'wrong'. Somehow we seem to have reached a point where most people view terrorism as a value judgement on an action. But you can have military actions which are indefensible, but which are not terrorism (imho).

To keep it simple (probably too simple, but let's start with this) I wouldn't see Hitler's invasion of Poland as 'terrorism'. It was an invasion, pure and simple. Germany declared war, and in they went. That doesn't make it right, but it speaks to the legal declaration, etc.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
What are your thoughts?
No holds barred, you are extremely ignorant. If you do not like how the Untied States is run, then do your best to make a change, OR LEAVE. I am of a different breed. Without MY kind the United States would not exist. Without my kind the world would be speaking German. Without my kind there would be no Jews. My kind defends your God given right to be free. My kind is United States veteran.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
No holds barred, you are extremely ignorant. If you do not like how the Untied States is run, then do your best to make a change, OR LEAVE. I am of a different breed. Without MY kind the United States would not exist. Without my kind the world would be speaking German. Without my kind there would be no Jews. My kind defends your God given right to be free. My kind is United States veteran.

Your kind also doesn't seem to realise that @Debater Slayer is not a US citizen, doesn't live in the US, and is fully entitled to have an opinion. That's kinda the point of 'defending freedom'.
 

Gharib

I want Khilafah back
It is a terrorist organisation where anyone that stands against it is a terrorist and to disagree with them makes you a terrorist.

Why is it that those who call for peace seem to always have the greatest weapons?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Yay! We don't bite. Well, Sunny is a lion, obviously...but....errr....

I know. We´ve disagreed rather vehemently on some things in the past. ;)

How useful is it to define "terrorism" in such a way that an unprovoked attack on another country's civilians is an act of terrorism? Here's why I ask, Riverwolf: Part of our means of combating terrorism is become informed about what it constitutes. That would include, I think, becoming informed that it is not just random violence, or violence done for the sake of violence, but rather has a political goal. It's only when we realize that terrorists have a political goal that we can sit down, figure out what that goal is, and then act to make sure the terrorists don't achieve it. So, I would think that any greatly useful definition of terrorism must acknowledge that fact about terrorism -- that it has a political goal. Furthermore, I think a useful definition must acknowledge that terrorists seek to bring about that goal via creating terror in a populace to pressure a government to do (or not do) something that achieves the terrorist's goal. So, if any of that makes sense, then it might be too simple to just say that an unprovoked attack on another country's civilians is an act of terrorism. Just my two cents.

I wouldn't, but perhaps not for the reasons you might assume.
Terrorism (to me) isn't a measure of 'right' or 'wrong'. Somehow we seem to have reached a point where most people view terrorism as a value judgement on an action. But you can have military actions which are indefensible, but which are not terrorism (imho).

To keep it simple (probably too simple, but let's start with this) I wouldn't see Hitler's invasion of Poland as 'terrorism'. It was an invasion, pure and simple. Germany declared war, and in they went. That doesn't make it right, but it speaks to the legal declaration, etc.

You both make excellent points, I think. My reasoning for labelling it "terrorism" does largely stem from hearing the voices of the surviving victims of the attacs, who call it terrorism. Of course, that could easily be mistranslation on the part of the media, since these voices are probably not speaking English.

I remember a Bond film repeating what´s probably an older saying, that one man´s terrorist is another man´s freedom fighter. It does make sense: the game Final Fantasy VII, released in the late 90s, starts out with the player taking on the role of a group of eco-terrorists called AVALANCHE blowing up a "not-oil" reactor (and everyone in it) because the evil "not-oil" corporation is sucking the planet dry of this "not-oil", which will inevitably cause the planet to die. It´s even been joked since before the internet that the Rebels in Star Wars could be labelled as terrorists, since, as ... was movie was it?... pointed out, the second Death Star was still under construction and probably had innocents on it when it blew up.

Of course, I´m a stickler for words needing to be self-descriptive, so I´d be pretty against labelling something as "terrorism" that isn´t at least primarily about scaring people. AVALANCHE wasn´t trying to scare anybody; they were trying to save the planet with brute force means. The Rebels were trying to take down the Empire completely, not scare it into submission.

But, then, what of our own Founding Fathers? Obviously the narrative of the American Revolution doesn´t depict them as anything but golden exemplars of humanity, but if the term "terrorism" existed back then, would the British government call them that? I mean, consider the Christmas massacre...

You two have both expressed concern that the word could quickly become meaningless if we label horendous acts as terrorism willy-nilly, but come to think of it, I wonder if "terrorism", at least as it´s most often used, has ever had any real meaning beyond "insurgents who are politically against the US, or some other major Western power, and since 9/11, have some degree of brown skin". If so... I wonder if it should be used at all.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
You two have both expressed concern that the word could quickly become meaningless if we label horendous acts as terrorism willy-nilly, but come to think of it, I wonder if "terrorism", at least as it´s most often used, has ever had any real meaning beyond "insurgents who are politically against the US, or some other major Western power, and since 9/11, have some degree of brown skin". If so... I wonder if it should be used at all.

What else would you call the use of violence or the threat of violence against noncombatants to create terror in order to put pressure on a government to behave in a manner that furthers the terrorist's aims? The word, "terrorism" can be precisely descriptive of a certain sort of strategies and tactics.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
What else would you call the use of violence or the threat of violence against noncombatants to create terror in order to put pressure on a government to behave in a manner that furthers the terrorist's aims? The word, "terrorism" can be precisely descriptive of a certain sort of strategies and tactics.

But there seems to be a lot of hesitation to call terrorism when governments, particularly Western ones, do just that.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
But there seems to be a lot of hesitation to call terrorism when governments, particularly Western ones, do just that.

That's what I was thinking. In comparison to the bombing in Dresden, if I and group of Jewish compadres wish to influence the political system by throwing molotov cocktails at Hitler in a movie theater, killing everyone inside, or just one of his generals or something, I doubt there would be much argument that this was a terrorist act.

But if I can convince the government to use tax money to allow a general to bomb and even larger area with napalm for the purposes of influencing the political system, it's not terrorism, but I guess, it's important to distinguish between governments who do it, and small bands of armed soldiers do it.

I mean, I recognize the usefulness about distinguishing between the two, but it's pretty hard to say that the DoD, and other government organizations, haven't knowingly engaged in "terror"-related activities.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The US Empire has been afflicting the rest of the world for nearly two centuries. The president styles himself the leader of the free world, many subscribe to the doctrine of American Exceptionalism and Americans revel in being the baddest guy in town.
Today, though, while America's military serves as muscle, I think the real skulduggery abroad is being done by the CIA, while the FBI and NSA are keeping the lid on domestic dissent.

"The greatest purveyor of violence in the world today is my own government." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'd prefer General Smedley Butler's description: gangster for capitalism.
His quote has become obsolete.
Nowadays, it's......"gangster for a mixed economy (except for N Korea)".

Back in the days of Smedley, war really did profit our nation.
(Was he named after a cartoon squid?)
Example: We conquered Hawaii to get some strategic beaches.
Nowadays, we inflict the same oppression & carnage, but for the utterly ludicrous motive of 'helping' our victims.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
But there seems to be a lot of hesitation to call terrorism when governments, particularly Western ones, do just that.

That's true, but what does that have to do with the definition of terrorism I'm proposing? The definition I'm proposing would not distinguish between when governments do it and when subnational groups do it. Both would be considered terrorism. So what is your point?
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Makes no difference that he is not a American.



My grandfather actually fought in world war 2. Language filters dont permit me to suggest what i think when you decide to claim a more important role in fighting nazis than him, but claiming pride in the heritage of your armed forces is no excuse for the lack of hubris you are exhibiting here.
 

Wirey

Fartist
If a terrorist organization is one that terrorizes and kills innocent people, then the Pentagon's actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Pakistan make it fit that definition very comfortably. The Pentagon has spent three trillion dollars on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, so if the Pentagon is indeed a glorified terrorist organization, it is also the world's richest.

What are your thoughts? Is the Pentagon a terrorist organization in a protector's clothing?

I think the basic aim of any terrorist group is destabilization without a plan for conquest. I don't think that applies to the Yanks.
 
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