The whys of Hell and Jesus.

[jojom]

"The exact number of humans who have ever lived is unknown to humans. However, by way of illustration, if Jehovah resurrects 20 billion (20,000,000,000) people, there would be no problem as to living space and food for them. The land surface of the earth at present is about 148,000,000 sq km (57,000,000 sq mi), or about 14,800,000,000 ha (36,500,000,000 acres). Even allowing half of that to be set aside for other uses, there would be more than a third of a hectare (almost 1 acre) for each person. As to earth’s potential food production, a third of a hectare will actually provide much more than enough food for one person, especially when, as God has demonstrated in the case of the nation of Israel, there is abundance of food as a result of God’s blessing.—1Ki 4:20; Eze 34:27.

The context of the issue is not the present situation of the world and salvation, but

"if A&E never brought sin into the world, and no one ever died, what do you think the population of the world would be right now? The Population Reference Bureau puts it at 107,602,707,791. That's 15 times our current population."​

On the question of the earth’s food-producing power, the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization maintains that, with only moderate improvements in agricultural methods, in even the developing areas the earth could easily feed up to nine times the population that scientists have estimated for the year 2000.—Land, Food and People, Rome, 1984, pp. 16, 17." (Quote from IT-2 p.783)

Even at nine times the 2000 population it would still fall far short of the 15 times.

Regarding why God handled matters as he did, the Bible says of Jehovah that " perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness who is never unjust; Righteous and upright is he. "

If his activities are perfect then why did he regret doing some of them?

(Deuteronomy 32:4) Jehovah said if Adam disobeyed God he would die.

Think Adam knew what "to die" meant? Hardly. Suppose a Japanese woman said you are going to ni ikanaito to you. What would you thing she's talking about?

Now, if God had just canceled sin, he would, in effect, say " Just kidding. I didn't really mean it when I said you would die."

So what was his point in creating sin in the first place? And please don't say, so we would have free will.

 

[Mycroft]

So, what do you thing the leverage was for? Personal glorification perhaps?


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Never met a religion yet that didn't have a convert or die policy of some sort. It's just a control mechanism. You want people to do what you say? You put the fear of a god in 'em.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Never met a religion yet that didn't have a convert or die policy of some sort. It's just a control mechanism. You want people to do what you say? You put the fear of a god in 'em.

I see you haven't heard of Pastafarianism.

 

[rusra02]

The context of the issue is not the present situation of the world and salvation, but

"if A&E never brought sin into the world, and no one ever died, what do you think the population of the world would be right now? The Population Reference Bureau puts it at 107,602,707,791. That's 15 times our current population."​

Even at nine times the 2000 population it would still fall far short of the 15 times.

If his activities are perfect then why did he regret doing some of them?

Think Adam knew what "to die" meant? Hardly. Suppose a Japanese woman said you are going to ni ikanaito to you. What would you thing she's talking about?

So what was his point in creating sin in the first place? And please don't say, so we would have free will.

The way God feels regret has been explained in another post.
Of course Adam knew what death is. He must surely have seen animals die. He also knew because God told him and gave Adam the intelligence to understand him.
Nor did God create sin. Sin occurs when wrong desires are nurtured and obsessed about, finally moving the person to fulfill those wrong desires. (James 1:14,15) Eve was a perfect example of this.

 

[viole]

Q.1 Obviously, we created the doctrine of hell. Why? To demonize other people, particularly those who persecuted Christians. Hell was created as a protest against the strong, and obviously was used later to keep Christians in line.

Agree.

Q.2 Logically, no. No eternal punishment can fit a human crime. However, there are people who will not face judgment on earth for their crimes -- as serious as George W. Bush's wars and common as the rapist who is never caught -- there are criminals that human justice will never find. Because there is evil in the world that will never see justice in this life, I hope that there is justice in the afterlife.

There would be little justifications to believe in an afterlife otherwise. I posit that belief in the afterlife fills our natural need to have justice in any case, among other things.

Q.3 I believe that God will judge every person according to what they have done in this life, and mete out this judgement with wisdom and mercy through Jesus Christ. So, Jesus's work on the cross is for the entire world, and is the means of salvation, but God is just. I don't think that hell is eternal -- in the metaphor, the fire is eternal, not the punishment. Fire destroys.

I am not sure it is for the entire world. Where would little dead children land without Jesus work? And by the way, what have those little children did to deserve such a privilege to attain risk-free eternal salvation by dying so young?

Q.4 I don't believe that Jesus is an escape route, but his life and death is a pattern for knowing God's mercy. The way that God will bring justice and peace to the world is through self-sacrifice and loving others -- the world and everything in it will pass away because of selfishness and greed, and God will redeem it, righting all of our wrongs -- and His.

Well, I am sure that this sort of mercy is a vast improvement when compared with drowning basically everybody.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I assume that you are not in the Chicagoland area. Too bad. My wife and I wend to see Ring of Fire yesterday afternoon. It was an outstanding performance.

 

[Unification]

God gave Adam and Eve the commission to fill, not overflow the earth. "Further, God blessed them, and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many, fill the earth." (Genesis 1:28) The earth has much more than enough capacity to accommodate everyone who has ever lived.
3. Why not absolve all criminals with a snap of our fingers? Man caused the distress he has experienced because of his rebelling against God. We are not in a position, IMO, to argue with God on how to fix the mess we have caused or contributed to.
4. Could we trust God if he says one thing and does another? Really, I know we would have no hope for everlasting life if God had not had mercy on us. Why he did things the way he did is explained in the Bible. To claim that God consigns people to a place if eternal torment is a slander perpetrated by false religions claiming to represent God, IMO.

Indeed, "God" has given the conscious and subconscious minds of human beings to fill the earth(physical brain) with thoughts, ideas, inspirations, creations through neurological growth, advancement, imagination, knowledge, and capabilities.

However, what the mind dwells on, thinks of, creates, allows to enslave and imprison will determine ones own conscious experience, as well as harming others, and either be blissful or painful (heaven or hell.) Many are in hell (conscious state) due to not being content, miserable, doing ignorant things, believing in lies, being covetous, uncontent because the beast of the bottomless pit(ego) always wants more and more, and creates all sorts of problems for humanity and themselves. Rebelling against "life and truth."

The literal earth, all of the folks of the past are us anyhow. We've built the earth up, we are responsible for the past because we are the past. We've lived our past.

 

[Unification]

I don't know why. I think waiting could be one of God's mistakes.

I see that I wasn't clear that I do believe that Jesus is God, so he's not an intermediary.

Also I think it would be useful to expand on the mythology of Jesus. Jesus is the patten by which God redeems the cosmos and Godself. That is to say, God went first in this process of death and resurrection that eventually God will repeat for 'the world', that is, everything else God created. So through Jesus's voluntary death, God paid the price for whatever responsibility God has for the past and continued suffering in the world. It's not enough, of course, but what else could he do but die for what he had done? There's nothing more to do, except for someday putting everything else through the same process -- why God waits I have no idea. Maybe the process will be so painful for everyone that God chooses to put it off.

But that's how Christians can understand that Jesus is mercy, the literal embodiment of God's process of taking responsibility for suffering in the world.

Indeed, "the Christ" is in all, the physical human body made of blood, flesh, bones, DNA, etc. "The Christ" is a fluid, inside of the physical body. Blood-plasma. There is power in the blood-plasma.

The reason people are "forgiven" and able to act any which way they want, regardless of how it may affect themselves and others, is because of the physical human body of blood they reside in. Like a resistance. If a cosmos, nature was completely pure and love, without a body of blood and flesh, an individual would be completely consumed by nature the moment anyone "sinned." "God" died and sourced itself out so that we may have life. And will stay dead until made alive within an individual, the crucifixion of the ego and the resurrection to oneness inside of the physical body. That's mercy, forgiven for sins and allowed to live, different than being forgiven for sins. Being forgiven comes with an internal, metaphysical resurrection, an alteration and shift in consciousness.

Intermediary as within us, energetic source to energetic source. Energy within us to energy of cosmos/nature.

Responsibility is on us. We reap what we sow.

 

[Unification]

The way God feels regret has been explained in another post.
Of course Adam knew what death is. He must surely have seen animals die. He also knew because God told him and gave Adam the intelligence to understand him.
Nor did God create sin. Sin occurs when wrong desires are nurtured and obsessed about, finally moving the person to fulfill those wrong desires. (James 1:14,15) Eve was a perfect example of this.

Yes. The conscious(Adam) impregnated Eve(subconscious) with a child(seed of knowledge, thought, idea, desire, etc) that gave rise to their ego(devil/Satan/serpent/snake) creating a conscious fracture, separation of mind into duality, rather than a whole and one temple(mind) within themselves and with the rest of mankind. Happens all the time, individually in our minds.

Wives(subconscious) must submit to their husbands(conscious) because our subconscious must be nurtured and taken care of by the things we dwell on and impregnate it with(thoughts.)

"God" did give Adam(conscious) a helpmate (woman-mind-subconscious) in order to seek truth, not live in lies and deceit.

 

[jojom]

The way God feels regret has been explained in another post.

That you don't care to explain it here or provide a link to a previous explanation simply tells me you don't feel comfortable with it. Understood.

Of course Adam knew what death is. He must surely have seen animals die. He also knew because God told him and gave Adam the intelligence to understand him.

Your speculation turned fact is interesting, but hardly convincing.

Nor did God create sin. Sin occurs when wrong desires are nurtured and obsessed about, finally moving the person to fulfill those wrong desires. (James 1:14,15) Eve was a perfect example of this.

So, in effect, sin arose in humans because A&E ate the apple. Had they not taken a bite we would not be sinners. Thing is, no matter when it came into existence, I've read it could have even existed before the creation of A&E, god permitted it to exist. So one has to wonder why he did this, and in particular, let it become part of the nature of A&E and all of humanity. It's like purposely infecting one's children with HIV.


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[angellous_evangellous]

Yes. The conscious(Adam) impregnated Eve(subconscious) with a child(seed of knowledge, thought, idea, desire, etc) that gave rise to their ego(devil/Satan/serpent/snake) creating a conscious fracture, separation of mind into duality, rather than a whole and one temple(mind) within themselves and with the rest of mankind. Happens all the time, individually in our minds.

Wives(subconscious) must submit to their husbands(conscious) because our subconscious must be nurtured and taken care of by the things we dwell on and impregnate it with(thoughts.)

"God" did give Adam(conscious) a helpmate (woman-mind-subconscious) in order to seek truth, not live in lies and deceit.

That is hard core sexism.

 

[viole]

Yes. The conscious(Adam) impregnated Eve(subconscious) with a child(seed of knowledge, thought, idea, desire, etc) that gave rise to their ego(devil/Satan/serpent/snake) creating a conscious fracture, separation of mind into duality, rather than a whole and one temple(mind) within themselves and with the rest of mankind. Happens all the time, individually in our minds.

Wives(subconscious) must submit to their husbands(conscious) because our subconscious must be nurtured and taken care of by the things we dwell on and impregnate it with(thoughts.)

"God" did give Adam(conscious) a helpmate (woman-mind-subconscious) in order to seek truth, not live in lies and deceit.

How does that work with homosexual couples?

Ciao

- viole

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How does that work with homosexual couples?

Ciao

- viole

It looks to me like a sexist cosmology.

Like so sexist the dude is walking sideways.

 

[Ron Hackel]

Hell really doesn't exist. Hell is the condition of the earth at the second coming. Lucifer made claims in heaven that he could rule in a superior fashion to God and God as a god of love can only prove him wrong by love.

ZECHARIAH 4 : 6 Not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit. The Spirit gives you the truth but it is totally up you as to what you do. Jesus gave us the example in the prodigal son. The father was waiting for the son to come home because he knew he would fail, but allowed him to go anyway-not by might nor power.

The earth's core is heated by the decay of radio-active materials. Before the earth ruptured at the time of the flood the decay rate started to increase and turned the fountains of the deep to steam and fractured the earth's mantle releasing the fountains of the deep. They are our present day oceans. John in revelation sees an image of the new earth that God is going to create after this one explodes and he sees no more oceans (REV 21:1). Before that time the entire earth was heated and watered from below. That is why there had never been a rainbow. When the earth fractured it caused the earth to jerk and cause the tilt we now have. This tilt is what causes all severe weather. You know this has to be true because God said everything was good on the 6th day of creation. Hurricanes and tornadoes are not good. You can observe this by heating an egg in a micro-wave. Just before it fractures it will jerk violently. Warning you'll have a mess in your micro-wave.

In May of 2012 Purdue and Stanford reported that the decay rate of everything had started to increase. It doesn't say for sure what causes this but the Bible hints that it is caused by negative thoughts by humans. As the population increases and with it stress between people and nations this negative energy also increases. Before you call this nuts, try to explain how gravity works. If you notice before the flood that the Bible says that man's thoughts were evil continually. Now go to 2 Timothy 3:1-5, Paul says this will be our behavior just before the end. Is it a good definition of evil continually? 2 Peter 3:12 says the elements will melt in the heat at the second coming. Before this happens God is coming to save us. New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven to act as the ark did at the time of the flood. A place to get into to be safe.

ZECHARIAH 2 : 5 "And I myself will be a wall of fire around it."

God's appearance is one of a devouring fire (appearance only).

ISAIAH 43 : 2 "When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned"

Everyone is raised from the grave and told the gospel (that you have a God of total love). The problem is that most people will not believe the 144,000. Just like people will claim that I am teaching lies. If you believe in a punishing god like most do, they will run from what they've been told hell looks like. You really can't blame them. All religions teach that you float into heaven. If you are on an earth that is convulsing all around you and you haven't floated away, you'd probably think you're one of the lost. Here is what Scripture says

ISAIAH 2 : 19 "Men flee to caves in the rocks and to holes in the ground from dread of the Lord and the splendor of his majesty (that wall of fire) when he rises to shake the earth."

 

[Ron Hackel]

Sin is not the definition that the churches use to understand Scripture. If you go to Psalm 78:32, you'll see the Jews sin was not trusting in a loving God. Jesus came to do away with sin. He said he came in the name of the Father. Name in Hebrew means one's character. Jesus came to show us what God is like so you'd have faith to come into the city. Satan has used the other definition of sin used in the Bible to make up this entire false idea that God has a punishment of death for us. The Bible says the wages of sin is death. Not that God is going to kill you because you do something against what he says but that if you don't trust him at the last day you'll die on this earth when it explodes. Think about what Jesus said

JOHN 12 ; 48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."

Jesus said he was the Son of God and he was nothing like the Mount Sinai god. God had chosen the Jews to reveal his character to the world, but as Psalm 78 said they refused to believe in him. He led them like a loving Father for 90 days and they kept rejecting him. He finally relented and gave them the pagan god they desired. There are many differences between Jesus and the god at Mount Sinai, but I think the telling thing was that in Hebrews 12 Paul tells us that Moses was trembling with fear when God came down on Mount Sinai disguised as a pagan god. Even though he was trembling with fear from the sight, he told the Jews, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you." And sure enough, they told Moses we'll do anything this god says.

 

[Unification]

How does that work with homosexual couples?

Ciao

- viole

All individuals have a conscious mind.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

 

[angellous_evangellous]

But that's how Christians can understand that Jesus is mercy, the literal embodiment of God's process of taking responsibility for suffering in the world.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The hell playlist. Love it - live it.