Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Spockrates]

No, guns are not the cause.

Guns are the means. People are the cause. Faith is the means (access, avenue, channel), Jesus is the cause. How do you see it? Do you think faith causes us to be saved?

Thanks for the reply, Katie. Yes, I agree guns are not THE cause of gunshot wounds, but I'm thinking they are A cause.

You see? I think a means to an end IS a cause of that end result. So yes, I see how faith might be a means to the end of salvation, but I think the word means is just a synonym for a cause. Hence faith is a cause--but not the primary cause--of salvation.

An example: When I was a child I complained to my father--who was helping me do my homework--that I hated mathmatics. He said to me he didn't like it, either, but he nevertheless used it as a means to the end of getting something he did like--a good paying job as an engineer. What he was telling me was that learning mathmatics would cause me to get a better job when I grew up. It was a means to--or a cause of--the end of getting such a job.

Now it would be accurate to say that I myself was the primary cause of getting a good job. But it would be inaccurate to say my learning mathmatics to that end was not a secondary cause of getting a good job. For I would not cause the obtaining of a good job if I didn't have the means of getting such a job! Both me and my knowledge of mathmatics would cause me to get a good job, I think.

So that which is a means to an end is a cause, and faith being an end actually makes it a cause, I think. know what I mean?

 

[Spockrates]

She didn't. Those from Church of Christ did. The scriptures I mentioned earlier Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38 and others. Not that their the causes, but the crossing point. God/Jesus is still the cause.

Maybe when you say the word cause, I'm thinking apples, and you're thinking oranges, or maybe I'm just bananas!

For I don't understand why you say things we are required to do to be saved are not additional causes of salvation. I mean, let's say I refuse to repent of my sins and put my faith in Christ. Won't such actions cause me to not be saved?

But please tell me: What do you believe the word cause means?

 

[Katzpur]

And I hope the cat has not gotten your tongue, Katzpur! I hope you will join in with the others so we may compare notes.

I always hesitate to jump into a conversation in which two or three other people are already deeply involved, so that's why I've kind of kept quiet.

Please tell me: What do you believe are the causes of salvation?

In order to answer this question, I'd have to begin by defining "salvation," as we believe the word can be used in various contexts. For instance, in order to be "saved" from the permanence of death, all one ultimately must do is die. (I really don't like these new smilies. ) The Bible tells us that, "... as in Adam, all die; even so, in Christ shall all be made alive." We believe that everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected and given a new, immortal body. It doesn't matter how the person lived or what he believed; all will be resurrected and so "saved" in this regard. In terms of being "saved" from Hell, Mormons believe that only those who commit the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will end up in Hell; furthermore, we don't believe that Hell is a place with a literal lake of fire, but rather Outer Darkness, a place totally devoid of the glory of God. We believe that very, very few will actually end up in Outer Darkness. Most of the people the average Christian believes will end up in Hell, Mormons believe will end up in the lowest of the three "degrees of glory" described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 40-42:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.

I mean, I know Mormons have told me all but a few make it to at least the first level of heaven. But let's say I'm shooting higher. What would cause me to make it to the top?

We believe that ultimately "every tongue will confess" that Jesus is the Christ. Even the worst people who have ever lived will sooner or later acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and could have been the means by which they could be reconciled to Him -- had they only let him. These individuals will be resurrected and allowed entrance into the lowest kingdom of Heaven, but only after they have been punished for the sins they committed and refused to repent of. This kingdom is known as the Telestial Kingdom; its glory can be compared to that of the stars.

Most of the good people of the earth will end up in the second of the three heavenly kingdoms. It's not going to matter whether they lived their lives as Christians, Jews, Muslims or even as atheists. If they were decent people who made some kind of an effort at living a good life, they will be rewarded with life in the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is said to have a glory like that of the moon.

The "straight and narrow path" that few find is the highest degree of glory in the "Celestial Kingdom." For Mormons, when we use the word "salvation," we are often speaking of more than just being saved from the permanence of death or from an eternity in Outer Darkness. We are referring to "the fullness of salvation" which is exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, or life eternal in the presence of God the Father. In order to gain the Celestial Kingdom, we believe that a person much have faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, repent of his sins, be baptized by immersion for the remission of those sins, and be given the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We believe that these last two steps are ordinances (i.e. sacraments) that must be performed by someone holding the proper authority, and not just by any Christian. Once these conditions have been met, we believe that a person must "endure to the end" in order to receive the highest degree of heavenly glory. In other words, he must be devoted to Jesus Christ in word and deed and obedient to the Lord's commandments to the best of his ability, repenting as necessary whenever he falls short.

One other point is critical to an understanding of Mormon doctrine regarding salvation. We do not believe that death marks the final fall of the curtain. We believe that all will be judged immediately after death, but that this judgment is not the "Last Judgment." Many people have lived and died knowing nothing at all about Jesus Christ. Not only that, every one of us is the product of our environment and culture. God will take these things into account. Those who died without having had the opportunity to (1) hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, (2) fully understand it, and (3) accept it during their lifetimes will have the chance during the time between their death and their resurrection. (We believe that, at death, the spirit does not "sleep" or cease to exist, but continues to function as a fully cognizant entity that is still capable of learning and growing.)

That was kind of long. I apologize for that, but it would have been difficult for me to give a truly complete response had I tried to shorten it.

 

[atpollard]

I always hesitate to jump into a conversation in which two or three other people are already deeply involved, so that's why I've kind of kept quiet.

In order to answer this question, I'd have to begin by defining "salvation," as we believe the word can be used in various contexts. For instance, in order to be "saved" from the permanence of death, all one ultimately must do is die. (I really don't like these new smilies. ) The Bible tells us that, "... as in Adam, all die; even so, in Christ shall all be made alive." We believe that everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected and given a new, immortal body. It doesn't matter how the person lived or what he believed; all will be resurrected and so "saved" in this regard. In terms of being "saved" from Hell, Mormons believe that only those who commit the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will end up in Hell; furthermore, we don't believe that Hell is a place with a literal lake of fire, but rather Outer Darkness, a place totally devoid of the glory of God. We believe that very, very few will actually end up in Outer Darkness. Most of the people the average Christian believes will end up in Hell, Mormons believe will end up in the lowest of the three "degrees of glory" described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 40-42:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.

We believe that ultimately "every tongue will confess" that Jesus is the Christ. Even the worst people who have ever lived will sooner or later acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and could have been the means by which they could be reconciled to Him -- had they only let him. These individuals will be resurrected and allowed entrance into the lowest kingdom of Heaven, but only after they have been punished for the sins they committed and refused to repent of. This kingdom is known as the Telestial Kingdom; its glory can be compared to that of the stars.

Most of the good people of the earth will end up in the second of the three heavenly kingdoms. It's not going to matter whether they lived their lives as Christians, Jews, Muslims or even as atheists. If they were decent people who made some kind of an effort at living a good life, they will be rewarded with life in the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is said to have a glory like that of the moon.

The "straight and narrow path" that few find is the highest degree of glory in the "Celestial Kingdom." For Mormons, when we use the word "salvation," we are often speaking of more than just being saved from the permanence of death or from an eternity in Outer Darkness. We are referring to "the fullness of salvation" which is exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, or life eternal in the presence of God the Father. In order to gain the Celestial Kingdom, we believe that a person much have faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, repent of his sins, be baptized by immersion for the remission of those sins, and be given the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We believe that these last two steps are ordinances (i.e. sacraments) that must be performed by someone holding the proper authority, and not just by any Christian. Once these conditions have been met, we believe that a person must "endure to the end" in order to receive the highest degree of heavenly glory. In other words, he must be devoted to Jesus Christ in word and deed and obedient to the Lord's commandments to the best of his ability, repenting as necessary whenever he falls short.

One other point is critical to an understanding of Mormon doctrine regarding salvation. We do not believe that death marks the final fall of the curtain. We believe that all will be judged immediately after death, but that this judgment is not the "Last Judgment." Many people have lived and died knowing nothing at all about Jesus Christ. Not only that, every one of us is the product of our environment and culture. God will take these things into account. Those who died without having had the opportunity to (1) hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, (2) fully understand it, and (3) accept it during their lifetimes will have the chance during the time between their death and their resurrection. (We believe that, at death, the spirit does not "sleep" or cease to exist, but continues to function as a fully cognizant entity that is still capable of learning and growing.)

That was kind of long. I apologize for that, but it would have been difficult for me to give a truly complete response had I tried to shorten it.

Thanks.
That was a great explanation.
I don't agree with all of it, but what we disagree on is not worth fighting over.

 

[e.r.m.]

Maybe when you say the word cause, I'm thinking apples, and you're thinking oranges, or maybe I'm just bananas!

For I don't understand why you say things we are required to do to be saved are not additional causes of salvation. I mean, let's say I refuse to repent of my sins and put my faith in Christ. Won't such actions cause me to not be saved?

But please tell me: What do you believe the word cause means?

You may be right. I usually don't use the word cause, I used it because that's what was being used here. I usually use the words source and means. God, Jesus, grace, love, the cross, the blood shed are the source of our salvation. The means are what God expects from us to be saved, e.g. faith in Jesus, repentance, baptism. God's already done his part, the only thing that could cause us not to be saved is us not fulfilling ours.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks.
That was a great explanation.
I don't agree with all of it, but what we disagree on is not worth fighting over.

Wow! A Baptist who doesn't want to fight a Mormon. We may just have made history! (You seem to be a really nice guy. You know that?)

 

[atpollard]

Wow! A Baptist who doesn't want to fight a Mormon. We may just have made history! (You seem to be a really nice guy. You know that?)

Thanks.

Frankly, when you have shot someone to protect your family and bear the guilt of setting another human being on fire ... it becomes really hard to get all worked up if someone wants to believe in two Middle Kingdoms between what I would call "Heaven" and what I would call "Hell".

For the sake of everyone who does not "Love God with all of their might", I even hope that you are right.

So the credit for any 'nice' you might see belongs to my ability to really screw things up and God's amazing ability to pick up the pieces and create something new.

 

[Katzpur]

Thanks.

Frankly, when you have shot someone to protect your family and bear the guilt of setting another human being on fire ... it becomes really hard to get all worked up if someone wants to believe in two Middle Kingdoms between what I would call "Heaven" and what I would call "Hell".

For the sake of everyone who does not "Love God with all of their might", I even hope that you are right.

So the credit for any 'nice' you might see belongs to my ability to really screw things up and God's amazing ability to pick up the pieces and create something new.

It sounds like you've been through some really rough trials, but that God did a great job in getting you on your feet again. I've still got to admire you for developing the ability to wisely pick your fights. Most people could learn a thing or two from you.

 

[Spockrates]

I always hesitate to jump into a conversation in which two or three other people are already deeply involved, so that's why I've kind of kept quiet.

In order to answer this question, I'd have to begin by defining "salvation," as we believe the word can be used in various contexts. For instance, in order to be "saved" from the permanence of death, all one ultimately must do is die. (I really don't like these new smilies. ) The Bible tells us that, "... as in Adam, all die; even so, in Christ shall all be made alive." We believe that everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected and given a new, immortal body. It doesn't matter how the person lived or what he believed; all will be resurrected and so "saved" in this regard. In terms of being "saved" from Hell, Mormons believe that only those who commit the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will end up in Hell; furthermore, we don't believe that Hell is a place with a literal lake of fire, but rather Outer Darkness, a place totally devoid of the glory of God. We believe that very, very few will actually end up in Outer Darkness. Most of the people the average Christian believes will end up in Hell, Mormons believe will end up in the lowest of the three "degrees of glory" described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 40-42:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.

We believe that ultimately "every tongue will confess" that Jesus is the Christ. Even the worst people who have ever lived will sooner or later acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and could have been the means by which they could be reconciled to Him -- had they only let him. These individuals will be resurrected and allowed entrance into the lowest kingdom of Heaven, but only after they have been punished for the sins they committed and refused to repent of. This kingdom is known as the Telestial Kingdom; its glory can be compared to that of the stars.

Most of the good people of the earth will end up in the second of the three heavenly kingdoms. It's not going to matter whether they lived their lives as Christians, Jews, Muslims or even as atheists. If they were decent people who made some kind of an effort at living a good life, they will be rewarded with life in the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is said to have a glory like that of the moon.

The "straight and narrow path" that few find is the highest degree of glory in the "Celestial Kingdom." For Mormons, when we use the word "salvation," we are often speaking of more than just being saved from the permanence of death or from an eternity in Outer Darkness. We are referring to "the fullness of salvation" which is exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, or life eternal in the presence of God the Father. In order to gain the Celestial Kingdom, we believe that a person much have faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, repent of his sins, be baptized by immersion for the remission of those sins, and be given the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We believe that these last two steps are ordinances (i.e. sacraments) that must be performed by someone holding the proper authority, and not just by any Christian. Once these conditions have been met, we believe that a person must "endure to the end" in order to receive the highest degree of heavenly glory. In other words, he must be devoted to Jesus Christ in word and deed and obedient to the Lord's commandments to the best of his ability, repenting as necessary whenever he falls short.

One other point is critical to an understanding of Mormon doctrine regarding salvation. We do not believe that death marks the final fall of the curtain. We believe that all will be judged immediately after death, but that this judgment is not the "Last Judgment." Many people have lived and died knowing nothing at all about Jesus Christ. Not only that, every one of us is the product of our environment and culture. God will take these things into account. Those who died without having had the opportunity to (1) hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, (2) fully understand it, and (3) accept it during their lifetimes will have the chance during the time between their death and their resurrection. (We believe that, at death, the spirit does not "sleep" or cease to exist, but continues to function as a fully cognizant entity that is still capable of learning and growing.)

That was kind of long. I apologize for that, but it would have been difficult for me to give a truly complete response had I tried to shorten it.

Katzpur:

Not long at all! Thanks for telling me. I think Latter Day Saints are too often the brunt of jokes, so that non-Mormons are hesitant to take them seriously. I've spoken to several and found them to be sincere, friendly, thoughtful, non-judgmental and to have a good sense of humor. My aunt June is a Mormon.

My wife's grandmother liked to tell the story of when two Mormon missionaries stopped by her home in Middlebury, NY. She and a friend were on the porch of her home making hooked rugs when the young men approached.

"What are you doing?" One of them asked.

"Oh, nothing," grandma said. "We're hookers!"

The missionary asking the question looked shocked, but the other couldn't stop himself from laughing. She invited them to sit on her porch and they had a good conversation.



So other Christians have this idea that forgiveness is essential to receiving eternal life. However it seems to me their concept of hell is one where people exist--some even say in bodily form. Hence they seem to be of the opinion that everyone does indeed exist forever. So when they say eternal life, the word life speaks more of a quality of existence than a continuing of existence, I think.

I'm curious about the concept of forgiveness in Mormon theology. Since baptism by the correct person is required, does this mean all non-Mormons die unforgiven? And what is the purpose of forgiveness? Is it to get one to the third Celestial Kingdom? And is such forgiveness still available after death?

 

[e.r.m.]

I hope you don't mind, but I would like to test that out ...

Sure. Sorry for the delay. I have a family member in icu. Been unavailable.

You said:

I agree with your conclusion, but when it says:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be savedwhoever does not believe will be condemned.

It is very clear what happens if one is baptized and does not believe.

Will you require a verse that deals with this exact scenario to have an answer, or will some 'interpretation' of some verse be required at some point in your search for an answer?

A common enough question. Well first it says those who believe and are baptized will be saved, already involving baptism in the salvation process. There's plenty of room for Jesus not mentioning baptism in the second part of the verse, to be explained by the fact that belief comes first before baptism. If someone doesn't believe then baptism has no effect.
Luke 3:7-9 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [8] Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. [9] The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire...”

Repentance and baptism were the setting. He told the crowds to repent and got specific with some of them. John wouldn't baptize unrepentant people. John didn't say, "and when you've repented come back and get baptized." He didn't have to repeat that. Him focusing on the requisite repentance did not take away from the baptism, even though he didn't repeat baptism.

But the fact that Jesus mentioned it at all imho is the strongest fact. Someone who believes in by grace alone, through faith alone just doesn't involve baptism in a salvation discussion unless it's to say baptism isn't involved. They speak only of faith, receiving him, and other similar statements and leave baptism out all together. Jesus made a direct cause and effect statement with baptism and salvation and left it that way. One who doesn't believe in the association has to answer, why did Jesus put baptism in a salvation sentence at all? It's in there for a very obvious reason.

I believe there are several examples of this exact event, which people patiently explain to me "no, that case is different because ...", and perhaps they are correct.

My question then becomes, So where is the answer for a case that is not 'different'?

I don't understand that whole 'that case is different' discussion.

This is not a 'How many angels will fit on the head of a pin?' type of question.

While I am interested in hearing your answer to baptism, I am more curious about how you reach it without "interpretation", and based only on "written scripture".

Baptism is written there. It takes interpretation to try to make it go away.

 

[atpollard]

Sure. Sorry for the delay. I have a family member in icu. Been unavailable.

A common enough question. Well first it says those who believe and are baptized will be saved, already involving baptism in the salvation process. There's plenty of room for Jesus not mentioning baptism in the second part of the verse, to be explained by the fact that belief comes first before baptism. If someone doesn't believe then baptism has no effect.
Luke 3:7-9 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? [8] Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. [9] The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire...”

Repentance and baptism were the setting. He told the crowds to repent and got specific with some of them. John wouldn't baptize unrepentant people. John didn't say, "and when you've repented come back and get baptized." He didn't have to repeat that. Him focusing on the requisite repentance did not take away from the baptism, even though he didn't repeat baptism.

But the fact that Jesus mentioned it at all imho is the strongest fact. Someone who believes in by grace alone, through faith alone just doesn't involve baptism in a salvation discussion unless it's to say baptism isn't involved. They speak only of faith, receiving him, and other similar statements and leave baptism out all together. Jesus made a direct cause and effect statement with baptism and salvation and left it that way. One who doesn't believe in the association has to answer, why did Jesus put baptism in a salvation sentence at all? It's in there for a very obvious reason.

I don't understand that whole 'that case is different' discussion.

Baptism is written there. It takes interpretation to try to make it go away.

[First things first:
Take your time, this is just iron sharpening iron ... family comes first (well, second after God, but you know what I mean) ... "Jesus, be with the family of e.r.m.; pour out your love, cover them with your mercy, grant them your healing and peace. Be who you are. Show yourself strong. Let your people see your power displayed before all the world. And to God the Father, Jesus the Son and the gracious Holy Spirit may all glory, honor and praise be given. Amen." ... In the Pentecostal church where I worship, they get lots of theology a little sloppy, but one thing that they get absolutely right is the truth that if you have a problem ... you take it straight to God, ASAP ... now we have at least TWO agreeing on a thing. ]


I noted three cases from my real-life experiences that I encounter on at least an annual basis:

• Real People make death bed confessions all of the time ... it MATTERS if their eternal damnation is resting on their ability to go get immersed (my wife is a Hospice nurse).
• Real People are sprinkled as babies and think that they are saved ... it MATTERS if their eternal damnation is resting on their knowledge that they need to go get immersed (our church welcomes people from dozens of different former denominations).
• Real People are told to pray a 'sinners prayer' and think that God has forgiven them ... it MATTERS if we need to not only tell them, but make sure they follow through with getting immersed, or else they are still damned (we are all called to go and make disciples).

So what is the answer to the question: So what happens if one believes (accompanied by faith in Jesus and repentance) but is not baptized?

I am criticized for reading too much, or the wrong thing into verses that do not address this question directly (like the thief on the cross, or Cornelius' house receiving the Holy Spirit) but I can find no verse that directly answers this question.
How can I find an answer if no scripture is a perfect match and I am not to 'interpret' anything, but just go from what is written?

Taking Mark 16:16 ("Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved") just on what is written, should we be warning the dying converts, those from churches that sprinkle, and those who answer an altar call at a revival tent ...
"You are still un-saved until you get immersed - try not to die before you can fix that." ... while scripturally sound, it seems a little light on grace ... but if it is TRUE, then Love demands that we do nothing less.
This is too important to screw up ... what is the answer?

[As I have said before, I was baptized and I do not believe that baptism in unnecessary ... Jesus DOES command it, so that is reason enough to obey ... and it is beneficial.
However, I see too many possible 'special cases' where what I know of God's grace suggests that Jesus can save without water baptism (going directly to the "baptism with fire") and therefore fulfilling the requirements of every command to 'repent and be baptized'.]

Before I am willing to begin laying a heavy yolk on the dying, those seeking a new fellowship, and new believers still stumbling their way to the cross, I want to be VERY sure that they will be damned if they do not comply, before I am willing to tell them "You will be damned unless you are immersed".
So, IS that what we should be telling them?
Is that the TRUTH?
Is Mark 16:16 the scripture that requires no interpretation for us to know this is what we need to tell them?

Currently, I prefer to tell them:
Jesus commands you to be baptized, so if you want to be obedient, you should get baptized as soon as you get a chance ... remember, he said "If you brag on me before men, then I will brag on you before God".
Do what you want, but I intend to shout "I BELONG TO JESUS" and I don't care who knows it ... but that is your call.

 

[e.r.m.]

LOL! Thanks for making me laugh. So Katie and I were discussing what the next discussion topic might be. One idea was the way God communicates truth. I'm thinking he leaves much for us to discuss and wonder about. If I had to guess why, it's so we might have the enjoyment of having discussions like these. I imagine you'd have some memorable conversations with Calvin over the purpose of baptism.

The way Calvinists explained it to me is this: Baptism is like circumsicion. It is the Christian community's profession to raise the infant to become Christian. For Calvin said, "Before a child reaches seven, teach him all the way to heaven."

The idea that water baptism in Jesus's name is the new circumcision is way older than Calvin, but it wasn't around in the first century church. None of the Bible authors made any connection between water baptism in Jesus's name and "physical" circumcision. It's not Biblical, it's later historical.

So I don't know if you are as curious as I am, but I wonder: To whom did God reveal the truth about the true purpose of baptism--you and Katie, or Calvin, or neither? You see, I'm wondering if God doesn't communicate all truth, but leaves some truth--like baptism--for us to figure out for ourselves. People love a good mystery and enjoy thoughtful conversation, or sometimes debate. Maybe he is providing for such needs?

You can compare one's teachings with what's written in the Bible.
John Calvin said of baptism

“Baptism serves as our confession before men, in as much as it is a mark by which we openly declare that we wish to be ranked among the people of God, by which we testify that we concur with all Christians in the worship of one God, and in one religion; by which, in short, we publicly assert our faith…” ~ Institutes of the Christian Religion 4.15.13

The Bible never described baptism as a public assertion of faith.

The only public assertions of faith required in the Bible were spreading the gospel, living an exemplary life in Jesus's name, and not backing down when demanded to be truthful about their faith in Jesus. There was never a coming out ceremony announcing one's faith in the Bible.

Calvin had it all wrong.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

Hi. So I've heard it said we are saved from hell by grace alone through faith alone. The grace is God's part and faith is our part. But I wonder if faith is the only condition we must meet. One biblical passage we might consider is:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)
​

As Jesus told us:
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

I figure that is why: Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

I always hesitate to jump into a conversation in which two or three other people are already deeply involved, so that's why I've kind of kept quiet.

In order to answer this question, I'd have to begin by defining "salvation," as we believe the word can be used in various contexts. For instance, in order to be "saved" from the permanence of death, all one ultimately must do is die. (I really don't like these new smilies. ) The Bible tells us that, "... as in Adam, all die; even so, in Christ shall all be made alive." We believe that everyone who has ever lived will be resurrected and given a new, immortal body. It doesn't matter how the person lived or what he believed; all will be resurrected and so "saved" in this regard. In terms of being "saved" from Hell, Mormons believe that only those who commit the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will end up in Hell; furthermore, we don't believe that Hell is a place with a literal lake of fire, but rather Outer Darkness, a place totally devoid of the glory of God. We believe that very, very few will actually end up in Outer Darkness. Most of the people the average Christian believes will end up in Hell, Mormons believe will end up in the lowest of the three "degrees of glory" described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15: 40-42:

There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead.

We believe that ultimately "every tongue will confess" that Jesus is the Christ. Even the worst people who have ever lived will sooner or later acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and could have been the means by which they could be reconciled to Him -- had they only let him. These individuals will be resurrected and allowed entrance into the lowest kingdom of Heaven, but only after they have been punished for the sins they committed and refused to repent of. This kingdom is known as the Telestial Kingdom; its glory can be compared to that of the stars.

Most of the good people of the earth will end up in the second of the three heavenly kingdoms. It's not going to matter whether they lived their lives as Christians, Jews, Muslims or even as atheists. If they were decent people who made some kind of an effort at living a good life, they will be rewarded with life in the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is said to have a glory like that of the moon.

The "straight and narrow path" that few find is the highest degree of glory in the "Celestial Kingdom." For Mormons, when we use the word "salvation," we are often speaking of more than just being saved from the permanence of death or from an eternity in Outer Darkness. We are referring to "the fullness of salvation" which is exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, or life eternal in the presence of God the Father. In order to gain the Celestial Kingdom, we believe that a person much have faith in Jesus Christ as Savior, repent of his sins, be baptized by immersion for the remission of those sins, and be given the Gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands. We believe that these last two steps are ordinances (i.e. sacraments) that must be performed by someone holding the proper authority, and not just by any Christian. Once these conditions have been met, we believe that a person must "endure to the end" in order to receive the highest degree of heavenly glory. In other words, he must be devoted to Jesus Christ in word and deed and obedient to the Lord's commandments to the best of his ability, repenting as necessary whenever he falls short.

One other point is critical to an understanding of Mormon doctrine regarding salvation. We do not believe that death marks the final fall of the curtain. We believe that all will be judged immediately after death, but that this judgment is not the "Last Judgment." Many people have lived and died knowing nothing at all about Jesus Christ. Not only that, every one of us is the product of our environment and culture. God will take these things into account. Those who died without having had the opportunity to (1) hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, (2) fully understand it, and (3) accept it during their lifetimes will have the chance during the time between their death and their resurrection. (We believe that, at death, the spirit does not "sleep" or cease to exist, but continues to function as a fully cognizant entity that is still capable of learning and growing.)

That was kind of long. I apologize for that, but it would have been difficult for me to give a truly complete response had I tried to shorten it.

If we were to be raised up as spirit bodied creatures then surely somewhere we would have been flat out told that. But we are no where told that.

The only references to resurrection in the Old Testament refer to a resurrection of this body of flesh that we wear:

Job 33:22 “Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: (This referencing Jesus Christ)
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.”

Christ was definitely resurrected bodily in the flesh: Luke 24:39 “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

It seems apparent that was to show us what we will be like in terms of our flesh. And it seems apparent that after having showed us that Christ had completed his mission with regards to us and therefore completed his transition back to the spirit world from which he had originally come. That transition back to the spirit world was not his resurrection as he was already resurrected at that moment he told his disciples, “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

Then, being done with his personal ministry’s work here on earth he was translated back to the spirit world amidst a cloud, hid from human eyes so that no one could deify that body in a tomb to be worshiped via man's common carnal minded thinking. This compares to how Moses died away from the people so that they could not know where he was buried. Many would only have worshiped at his grave sight otherwise. We see that carnal minded worship trying to be carried on every way these fleshly minded ones can possibly do so even today.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6 “So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.”

No, I do not see anything in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 or 2 Corinthians 5 which conclusively shows that anyone has a heavenly hope of life as a spirit bodied creature living in an invisible literal heaven.

I believe that all of you, including Jehovah's Witnesses, are missing the point of what is said by Paul.

Satan and Death would have had the victory if they had been able to change God's original plan for this earth or for that matter for even one person who was originally designed to live for ever upon this earth in a perfect body of flesh kept incorruptible by man's spirit fully fed and st peak health and strength by it's association with God's spirit.

Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (ASV)

 

[Katzpur]

If we were to be raised up as spirit bodied creatures then surely somewhere we would have been flat out told that. But we are no where told that.

The only references to resurrection in the Old Testament refer to a resurrection of this body of flesh that we wear:

Job 33:22 “Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: (This referencing Jesus Christ)
24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
25 His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
26 He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
27 He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.”

Christ was definitely resurrected bodily in the flesh: Luke 24:39 “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

It seems apparent that was to show us what we will be like in terms of our flesh. And it seems apparent that after having showed us that Christ had completed his mission with regards to us and therefore completed his transition back to the spirit world from which he had originally come. That transition back to the spirit world was not his resurrection as he was already resurrected at that moment he told his disciples, “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.”

Then, being done with his personal ministry’s work here on earth he was translated back to the spirit world amidst a cloud, hid from human eyes so that no one could deify that body in a tomb to be worshiped via man's common carnal minded thinking. This compares to how Moses died away from the people so that they could not know where he was buried. Many would only have worshiped at his grave sight otherwise. We see that carnal minded worship trying to be carried on every way these fleshly minded ones can possibly do so even today.

Deuteronomy 34:5-6 “So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.”

No, I do not see anything in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 or 2 Corinthians 5 which conclusively shows that anyone has a heavenly hope of life as a spirit bodied creature living in an invisible literal heaven.

I believe that all of you, including Jehovah's Witnesses, are missing the point of what is said by Paul.

Satan and Death would have had the victory if they had been able to change God's original plan for this earth or for that matter for even one person who was originally designed to live for ever upon this earth in a perfect body of flesh kept incorruptible by man's spirit fully fed and st peak health and strength by it's association with God's spirit.

Romans 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” (ASV)

You've misunderstood my post. I definitely believe that Jesus Christ was physically resurrected three days after His death and I definitely believe that each of us will also be physically resurrected. I was speaking of the state of the spirit in between death and the resurrection. I don't know what your belief is with respect to what happens to the spirit at death. I know that some Christians (though not a great many) believe that at death, the spirit becomes unconscious and remains so until it re-enters the physical body, giving it eternal life. Most Christians that I know of believe that the spirit immediately goes to Heaven where it awaits the time when the body is resurrected. I'm assuming you don't believe that the body is physically resurrected the instant it dies, since we are most assuredly burying it in the ground and it's definitely quite dead! My comments refer to the period of time between death and the resurrection.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur:

Not long at all! Thanks for telling me. I think Latter Day Saints are too often the brunt of jokes, so that non-Mormons are hesitant to take them seriously. I've spoken to several and found them to be sincere, friendly, thoughtful, non-judgmental and to have a good sense of humor. My aunt June is a Mormon.

My wife's grandmother liked to tell the story of when two Mormon missionaries stopped by her home in Middlebury, NY. She and a friend were on the porch of her home making hooked rugs when the young men approached.

"What are you doing?" One of them asked.

"Oh, nothing," grandma said. "We're hookers!"

The missionary asking the question looked shocked, but the other couldn't stop himself from laughing. She invited them to sit on her porch and they had a good conversation.

Sounds like your grandma had quite a sense of humor, and was a very nice lady!

So other Christians have this idea that forgiveness is essential to receiving eternal life. However it seems to me their concept of hell is one where people exist--some even say in bodily form. Hence they seem to be of the opinion that everyone does indeed exist forever. So when they say eternal life, the word life speaks more of a quality of existence than a continuing of existence, I think.

When Mormons use the word "immortality," we are thinking in terms of life after death -- period, which is something we believe is granted to all. When we say "eternal life," we are referring specifically to life in God's presence and in a state of perfect happiness.

I'm curious about the concept of forgiveness in Mormon theology. Since baptism by the correct person is required, does this mean all non-Mormons die unforgiven? And what is the purpose of forgiveness? Is it to get one to the third Celestial Kingdom? And is such forgiveness still available after death?

Let me see if I can explain what baptism means to us. First off, we do believe it's essential that a person be baptized if he is to have "eternal life." Second, we believe that it must be accompanied by faith in Jesus Christ and by genuine repentance. (For these reasons, we don't baptize infants.) Unlike many Christians, we don't see it so much as a "public profession of faith," but as the means by which we enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. I suspect we use the word "covenant" more commonly than do most Christians, so I'll just clarify what we mean by the word. We think of a "covenant" as a two-way promise. In the covenant relationship we enter into with the Lord at baptism, we are promising to do our best to always remember Him, to take His name upon ourselves and to keep His commandments. In return, we believe He promises us salvation.

The scriptures speak of baptism as being for the remission of sins, but because of the relationship we believe it represents, we don't see it solely as either cleansing us of our past sins or guaranteeing us salvation regardless of our behavior in the future. It's definitely not just a public display of faith and we don't do it in order to show anybody but Jesus Christ that we are sincerely committed to Him. It probably goes without saying that if a person's sins are remitted, he is forgiven of them. But if baptism were just a ritual that cleansed us at the moment it took place, it seems to me that we'd all want to wait until just before we died to be baptized, just to make sure we were forgiven for every last sin. Obviously, that's not a very practical approach.

Billions of people have died without ever having been baptized. The vast majority of those baptisms have been performed by someone we don't believe held the proper priesthood authority to do so, or were performed by sprinkling as opposed to immersion. According to Mormon theology, if a person repents of his sins and comes to a faith in Christ -- even after death, but prior to his resurrection -- it is not too late for him to be saved. During first-century Christianity, Christians were being baptized by proxy on behalf of their departed loved ones. To go into this practice in more detail would kind of take us off the topic we're supposed to be discussing, so I won't do that at this point. But we believe that ancient practice has been re-established today and gives those who died without baptism to have it done on their behalf during the time they await the resurrection and Final Judgment. Again, it's really hard to explain our belief comprehensively without having it turn into a really long narrative. Hopefully I've done a reasonably adequate job.

 

[Mountain_Climber]

You've misunderstood my post. I definitely believe that Jesus Christ was physically resurrected three days after His death and I definitely believe that each of us will also be physically resurrected. I was speaking of the state of the spirit in between death and the resurrection. I don't know what your belief is with respect to what happens to the spirit at death. I know that some Christians (though not a great many) believe that at death, the spirit becomes unconscious and remains so until it re-enters the physical body, giving it eternal life. Most Christians that I know of believe that the spirit immediately goes to Heaven where it awaits the time when the body is resurrected. I'm assuming you don't believe that the body is physically resurrected the instant it dies, since we are most assuredly burying it in the ground and it's definitely quite dead! My comments refer to the period of time between death and the resurrection.

I am working on my computer system at the moment so I won't try to go into much detail here and now but will later.

As I see it, it is pretty difficult to get around the fact that the Bible does point to a physical Resurrection. I know that our spirit is stored with God much like we store data away for our computer programs even when we suspend those programs temporarily. The data does not constitute a working program by it's loan self. And I believe that data is comparable to our spirit whereas the program complete with the data necessary for it to operate is comparable to our soul. So long as God in his good pleasure remembers our data he can return it back to an improved program.

This to me explains the so many scriptures that speak of our sleeping in death, like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, and it also explains the scriptures in the OT which speak of the dead knowing nothing at all, like Ecclesiastes 9:5.

In a sense our spirit is sometimes seen in the scriptures as though it yet lives. This is the personification of an abstract. You might think of it like a large family all the individuals of whom were raised by a wicked person who had taught them many a bad habit. One could say that they yet see that wicked teacher living on through this family's members.

Similarly, those that have died in Christ have spirits which live on in the lives of others and personified as an abstract these righteous ones can yet be portrayed as performing good works. It is the personification of the abstract spirit they left to others as their legacy.

Naturally people will read these things and quite innocently get the wrong idea as though these things are literal.

I look forward to speaking with you more later. I just change over to a Linux system and am yet in the process of getting it tamed.

 

[e.r.m.]

[First things first:

Take your time, this is just iron sharpening iron ... family comes first (well, second after God, but you know what I mean) ... "Jesus, be with the family of e.r.m.; pour out your love, cover them with your mercy, grant them your healing and peace. Be who you are. Show yourself strong. Let your people see your power displayed before all the world. And to God the Father, Jesus the Son and the gracious Holy Spirit may all glory, honor and praise be given. Amen." ... In the Pentecostal church where I worship, they get lots of theology a little sloppy, but one thing that they get absolutely right is the truth that if you have a problem ... you take it straight to God, ASAP ... now we have at least TWO agreeing on a thing. ]

Thank you.

I noted three cases from my real-life experiences that I encounter on at least an annual basis:

So what is the answer to the question:

I am criticized for reading too much, or the wrong thing into verses that do not address this question directly (like the thief on the cross, or Cornelius' house receiving the Holy Spirit) but I can find no verse that directly answers this question.

The command for baptism in Jesus's name wasn't given until the thief was dead Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38. We wouldn't expect Abraham to celebrate the passover or Adam to get curcumcised.
The Holy Spirit came "on" those at Cornelius's house. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19 comes at water baptism in Jesus's name Acts 2:38-39.

How can I find an answer if no scripture is a perfect match and I am not to 'interpret' anything, but just go from what is written?

Deathbed confessions
Isaiah 6:1, 6-7 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. [6] Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. [7] With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. ”

This is one example of God overriding his own requirement of a sin offering animal sacrifice. This is something God and only God can do. After this happened, the institution of animal sacrifices remained. God decides when and if and with whom He will do this.

For this reason I hold out some hope for deathbed confessions.
But there's no way to know if or whom God will accept until judgement day, because that's when everything is pronounced. We as humans do not have the authority to teach something other than what God's word says. At least with God's Word we have assurance. Outside of that we don't have assurance. To actually teach someone to die under a non-Biblical salvation method is to disobey God. I liken to an employee who sees his the owner of a company give a free product to a would be customer because of a hardship. The employee then takes it uoon himself to give a free product to all customers who have hardships. He doesn't have the authority. It's not his to give. Qe don't have grace or assurances (Sure you'll make it) to give out, only God does. All we can do is pray for them. In the case of Isaiah, no prophet could then say, just ask God to touch your lips with coal. That's how it will be from now on. We can't tell people "Yes, you will make it to Heaven by some other way because God accepted this man's deathbed confession." Only God can decide that. We can only teach what God has given us to teach. After a person who has believed in Christ dies, I say nothing. I do not say they are either going to hell or heaven. It's not for me to say. I just hold out hope for them.

Infant Baptisms
Even the Anabaptists of the 1500s realized that infant baptisms did not fulfill God's word, as it was not coupled with faith Mark 16:16. That's why they were re-baptizing those who were baptized as infants. In Acts 19:1-5 Paul re-baptized those who had not been baptized in Jesus name. because John said that they needed to believe in the one coming after. Belief in Jesus still had to come with baptism. Now that they understood this, a retroactive understanding on their previous baptism did not suffice. Call still baptized them again. There's no substitute. There's no other baptism that will do. If a Church accepts any baptism from any denomination, and does not baptize the person biblically if they were not baptized Biblically before, they are just submitting to sentimentality, and "lets just all get along" kind of thinking. They are not holding to the standard of God's word. Plain and simple, it's disobedience. We got to trust God that His way is better, and it will not hinder people. We should not project our OWN apprehensions onto those we're teaching.

Sinner's prayer
The reality is that people need to be corrected. It's in God's word, so it does matter.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

God's word is not the enemy, Satan is. False doctrine needs to be corrected with God's word. There's no method of accepting salvation or receiving Jesus salvation through prayer in the Bible. Belief in scripture is paired with repentance Acts 3:19, Baptism Mark 16:16, and confessing Jesus as Lord unto salvation Romans 10:9-10. We share God's word in love and desire for people to be saved. Unfortunately, unlike in the first century, we have to deal with many false doctrines that people have been exposed to that didn't exist then. They could just share the Gospel straight without that kind of hindrance. (Yes, they had other teachings they had to correct.)

Taking Mark 16:16 ("Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved") just on what is written, should we be warning the dying converts, those from churches that sprinkle, and those who answer an altar call at a revival tent ...

"You are still un-saved until you get immersed - try not to die before you can fix that." ... while scripturally sound, it seems a little light on grace ... but if it is TRUE, then Love demands that we do nothing less.

This is too important to screw up ... what is the answer? As I have said before, I was baptized and I do not believe that baptism in unnecessary ... Jesus DOES command it, so that is reason enough to obey ... and it is beneficial.

However, I see too many possible 'special cases' where what I know of God's grace suggests that Jesus can save without water baptism (going directly to the "baptism with fire") and therefore fulfilling the requirements of every command to 'repent and be baptized'.]

Baptism with fire John 3:11 has no scriptural connection to getting saved. God/Jesus "can" do a lot of things. God doesn't do everything He "can" do. The question is 'what does he "choose" to do?'

I must explain a concept. You're describing from a point of view of a church in full swing using false doctrines having to make a course correction. That is much more bothersome than a church teaching things Biblically from the get go. If a car is travelling at 60mph and has to make a U-turn, it will "seem" much less gracious than the driver receiving good directions before he starts driving and having a smooth ride. But even with the guy travelling at 60, getting a course correction is gracious and he will be grateful to the person who helped him get to where he was going (hopefully).

To apply this to your description, why would a church wait for someone to be dying to teach them the truth. Teach them the truth before they get there. Churches who have to make a u-turn, to them it appears "you're still damned unless you get baptized" because all along I thought I was saved. A person who passes his final exam and then is told "no, that was just the review" may feel cheated. A person who first hears, "You will take a review test, then the final" will not feel cheated, because he was taught correctly from the beginning. A church who teaches correctly from earlier doesn't think of statements like "you're damned unless..." anymore than sinners prayer churches think to say "you're damned unless you say the sinner's prayer." From the beginning we talk from the point of view of God's love and Salvation.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"I'm sorry that you were misinformed, but God wants you to be saved. This is what God's word actually tells you about being saved. These are his direct words. You can believe this."
Having the truth and not giving it to others is not love.

Before I am willing to begin laying a heavy yolk on the dying, those seeking a new fellowship, and new believers still stumbling their way to the cross, I want to be VERY sure that they will be damned if they do not comply, before I am willing to tell them "You will be damned unless you are immersed".

So, IS that what we should be telling them?

Is that the TRUTH?

It's not a heavy yoke, if this taught from the get go, it's no stumbling block. I've never seen it as a stumbling block to anyone because that's the Gospel. It's only because you or others are "used to" teaching an incomplete salvation, that it "feels" like your adding something, but you're not. You're given them the complete picture. Those stumbling to the cross in Acts 2:37 had no problem with Acts 2:38-39. That's how it was originally and that's how it is. All the difficulties you're envisioning are just from custom and persepective. There are no such problems. We know from experience. It's the good news.

Is Mark 16:16 the scripture that requires no interpretation for us to know this is what we need to tell them?

Currently, I prefer to tell them:

Jesus commands you to be baptized, so if you want to be obedient, you should get baptized as soon as you get a chance ... remember, he said "If you brag on me before men, then I will brag on you before God".

Do what you want, but I intend to shout "I BELONG TO JESUS" and I don't care who knows it ... but that is your call.

To say get baptized just because Jesus commands it is a neutral, safe, and unBiblical position. No apostle ever said get baptized just because God wants you to do it. Over and over they gave purposes for getting baptized. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:26-27, 1, Peter 3:21, etc. They never said "Get baptized because it's a command." That's not the gospel. Mark 16:16 Doesn't say "Get baptized because Jesus commanded it", it says Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It gives the reason. We ought not to be teaching differently than the Bible.

"If you brag on me before men, then I will brag on you before God".

Do what you want, but I intend to shout "I BELONG TO JESUS" and I don't care who knows it ... but that is your call.

The purpose of baptism has nothing to do with announcing our faith to others. That's what preaching is for. A person can be baptized by a disciple of Jesus in private and fulfill the scriptures. Getting baptized in public and letting others see it is just a perk. We do baptize in public because we want to share this good thing with others, but there's no Biblical requirement.

 

[Katzpur]

As I see it, it is pretty difficult to get around the fact that the Bible does point to a physical Resurrection.

And I agree with you on this 100%. When I hear people try to argue otherwise, I wonder how they can possibly believe as they do when the Bible is so clear on the matter.

I know that our spirit is stored with God much like we store data away for our computer programs even when we suspend those programs temporarily. The data does not constitute a working program by it's loan self. And I believe that data is comparable to our spirit whereas the program complete with the data necessary for it to operate is comparable to our soul. So long as God in his good pleasure remembers our data he can return it back to an improved program.

(Are you in I.T. by any chance? I was until I retired and so I found your analogy kind of interesting, even though I do not agree with it.)

Okay, here's what I think... When Jesus Christ died, the last thing (depending upon which gospel account you are reading) He said was, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." His spirit then presumably left His body. But if His spirit was just "stored away" for future retrieval (I'm assuming you believe it was "returned to an improved program" when He was resurrected), how do you explain that during the period of time His body lay in the tomb, His spirit was said to have visited the "spirits in prison"? Regardless of who you believe these spirits belonged to, you would have to concede that Jesus' continued to "live" during that period of time and that it was actually communicating with the spirits of some individuals who had died at an earlier time. These spirits, too, were living, cognizant entities. Otherwise, what would the point of His visit with them have been. He was said to have taught them, which implies that they were in a position to have been able to learn.

This to me explains the so many scriptures that speak of our sleeping in death, like 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, and it also explains the scriptures in the OT which speak of the dead knowing nothing at all, like Ecclesiastes 9:5.

I can understand your point of view, but consider the fact that in the Greek word "pneuma," translated in some passages as "spirit" is also translated elsewhere as "life." Accurately translated, it means "breath of life." Before God put into Adam his spirit, Adam's body was just an empty shell. With that spirit embodying it, it became "a living soul." But when the spirit leaves the body at death, the body once again becomes an empty shell. It's "dead." Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I feel as if our primary disagreement concerns what happens to the spirit at death. You appear to be saying that it, along with the body, dies. If that were the case, then it would be accurate to interpret the passage which says that "the dead know nothing at all" the way you do. If, however, you believed that the spirit simply leaves the body at death but continues to live, it makes sense to see "the dead know nothing at all" as I do, meaning that the dead body knows nothing. It is not animated by spirit, and is unaware of anything.

In a sense our spirit is sometimes seen in the scriptures as though it yet lives. This is the personification of an abstract. Similarly, those that have died in Christ have spirits which live on in the lives of others and personified as an abstract these righteous ones can yet be portrayed as performing good works. It is the personification of the abstract spirit they left to others as their legacy.

Yes, I can see that this is what you believe. I choose to take those passages of scripture at face value and believe that the spirit lives, even after it leaves the body.

Naturally people will read these things and quite innocently get the wrong idea as though these things are literal.

Well, obviously I believe you're reading them and quite innocently getting the wrong idea that they are merely abstract ideas.

I look forward to speaking with you more later. I just change over to a Linux system and am yet in the process of getting it tamed.

I'm looking forward to it, too. So far, it's been a good discussion.

 

[atpollard]

Thank you.

The command for baptism in Jesus's name wasn't given until the thief was dead Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38. We wouldn't expect Abraham to celebrate the passover or Adam to get curcumcised.
The Holy Spirit came "on" those at Cornelius's house. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 6:19 comes at water baptism in Jesus's name Acts 2:38-39.

Deathbed confessions
Isaiah 6:1, 6-7 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple. [6] Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. [7] With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for. ”

This is one example of God overriding his own requirement of a sin offering animal sacrifice. This is something God and only God can do. After this happened, the institution of animal sacrifices remained. God decides when and if and with whom He will do this.

For this reason I hold out some hope for deathbed confessions.
But there's no way to know if or whom God will accept until judgement day, because that's when everything is pronounced. We as humans do not have the authority to teach something other than what God's word says. At least with God's Word we have assurance. Outside of that we don't have assurance. To actually teach someone to die under a non-Biblical salvation method is to disobey God. I liken to an employee who sees his the owner of a company give a free product to a would be customer because of a hardship. The employee then takes it uoon himself to give a free product to all customers who have hardships. He doesn't have the authority. It's not his to give. Qe don't have grace or assurances (Sure you'll make it) to give out, only God does. All we can do is pray for them. In the case of Isaiah, no prophet could then say, just ask God to touch your lips with coal. That's how it will be from now on. We can't tell people "Yes, you will make it to Heaven by some other way because God accepted this man's deathbed confession." Only God can decide that. We can only teach what God has given us to teach. After a person who has believed in Christ dies, I say nothing. I do not say they are either going to hell or heaven. It's not for me to say. I just hold out hope for them.

Infant Baptisms
Even the Anabaptists of the 1500s realized that infant baptisms did not fulfill God's word, as it was not coupled with faith Mark 16:16. That's why they were re-baptizing those who were baptized as infants. In Acts 19:1-5 Paul re-baptized those who had not been baptized in Jesus name. because John said that they needed to believe in the one coming after. Belief in Jesus still had to come with baptism. Now that they understood this, a retroactive understanding on their previous baptism did not suffice. Call still baptized them again. There's no substitute. There's no other baptism that will do. If a Church accepts any baptism from any denomination, and does not baptize the person biblically if they were not baptized Biblically before, they are just submitting to sentimentality, and "lets just all get along" kind of thinking. They are not holding to the standard of God's word. Plain and simple, it's disobedience. We got to trust God that His way is better, and it will not hinder people. We should not project our OWN apprehensions onto those we're teaching.

Sinner's prayer
The reality is that people need to be corrected. It's in God's word, so it does matter.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

God's word is not the enemy, Satan is. False doctrine needs to be corrected with God's word. There's no method of accepting salvation or receiving Jesus salvation through prayer in the Bible. Belief in scripture is paired with repentance Acts 3:19, Baptism Mark 16:16, and confessing Jesus as Lord unto salvation Romans 10:9-10. We share God's word in love and desire for people to be saved. Unfortunately, unlike in the first century, we have to deal with many false doctrines that people have been exposed to that didn't exist then. They could just share the Gospel straight without that kind of hindrance. (Yes, they had other teachings they had to correct.)

Baptism with fire John 3:11 has no scriptural connection to getting saved. God/Jesus "can" do a lot of things. God doesn't do everything He "can" do. The question is 'what does he "choose" to do?'

I must explain a concept. You're describing from a point of view of a church in full swing using false doctrines having to make a course correction. That is much more bothersome than a church teaching things Biblically from the get go. If a car is travelling at 60mph and has to make a U-turn, it will "seem" much less gracious than the driver receiving good directions before he starts driving and having a smooth ride. But even with the guy travelling at 60, getting a course correction is gracious and he will be grateful to the person who helped him get to where he was going (hopefully).

To apply this to your description, why would a church wait for someone to be dying to teach them the truth. Teach them the truth before they get there. Churches who have to make a u-turn, to them it appears "you're still damned unless you get baptized" because all along I thought I was saved. A person who passes his final exam and then is told "no, that was just the review" may feel cheated. A person who first hears, "You will take a review test, then the final" will not feel cheated, because he was taught correctly from the beginning. A church who teaches correctly from earlier doesn't think of statements like "you're damned unless..." anymore than sinners prayer churches think to say "you're damned unless you say the sinner's prayer." From the beginning we talk from the point of view of God's love and Salvation.
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

"I'm sorry that you were misinformed, but God wants you to be saved. This is what God's word actually tells you about being saved. These are his direct words. You can believe this."
Having the truth and not giving it to others is not love.

It's not a heavy yoke, if this taught from the get go, it's no stumbling block. I've never seen it as a stumbling block to anyone because that's the Gospel. It's only because you or others are "used to" teaching an incomplete salvation, that it "feels" like your adding something, but you're not. You're given them the complete picture. Those stumbling to the cross in Acts 2:37 had no problem with Acts 2:38-39. That's how it was originally and that's how it is. All the difficulties you're envisioning are just from custom and persepective. There are no such problems. We know from experience. It's the good news.

To say get baptized just because Jesus commands it is a neutral, safe, and unBiblical position. No apostle ever said get baptized just because God wants you to do it. Over and over they gave purposes for getting baptized. Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-4, Galatians 3:26-27, 1, Peter 3:21, etc. They never said "Get baptized because it's a command." That's not the gospel. Mark 16:16 Doesn't say "Get baptized because Jesus commanded it", it says Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

It gives the reason. We ought not to be teaching differently than the Bible.

"If you brag on me before men, then I will brag on you before God".

Do what you want, but I intend to shout "I BELONG TO JESUS" and I don't care who knows it ... but that is your call.

The purpose of baptism has nothing to do with announcing our faith to others. That's what preaching is for. A person can be baptized by a disciple of Jesus in private and fulfill the scriptures. Getting baptized in public and letting others see it is just a perk. We do baptize in public because we want to share this good thing with others, but there's no Biblical requirement.

Thank you.
I have a lot to think about and I think that I am done with this topic.

In my heart, I still have the difficulty of knowing that I was saved through "God's special prerogative", like the Thief on the cross or Isaiah's coal ... So to deny that it is at least possible feels like a betrayal of the very evidence of grace that convinced me to turn from atheism to Christianity in the first place.

However, in my head, you and Katiemygirl have presented a very strong scriptural case for both the necessity and purpose of baptism. Certainly a strong enough case to warrant going back and rereading the verses, examining the context and looking up some of the critical words to see for myself if I need to adjust my opinions.

I am reminded of the motto of the Moravian Church: "In essentials, unity; in nonessentials, liberty; and in all things, love".
So now I need to see if baptism needs to be moved from the Liberty column to the Unity column.
Only God and I can answer that for me.

Anyway, Thank You,
Arthur